Satan was NOT the God of this age

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 05 2012,04:46)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 05 2012,11:13)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 04 2012,12:01)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 04 2012,10:39)

Is there a scripture for your belief?

You mean besides 2 Cor 4:4? How about this one:

Daniel 7 NASB
25 He will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time. 26 But the court will sit for judgment, and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever. 27 Then the sovereignty, the dominion and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the dominions will serve and obey Him.’

Or this one:
Ephesians 6:12
For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

Good Mike!

Now who is it that has authority over those dominions, principalities and powers?

When you figure that out then you will see that Jesus is the God of this world/age!

and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength,
which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in THE PRESENT AGE but also in the one to come. And God placed ALL THINGS UNDER HIS FEET and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way. Eph 1:19-23

Mike

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wj;Now who is it that has authority over those dominions, principalities and powers?

you see how he switches to a other discussion,from the god of this world(this age of wickedness and rebellion against God ) to the supreme power ,

he is a deceiver,

Pierre

Pierre,

You are a foolish man! You say that satan is a ruler in the place of Jesus and then have the audacity to call Keith a “deceiver.”

“God has blinded the minds of the unbelieving of this age, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.'

You are indeed among those whom God has blinded.

Paul says above that the gospel is about the glory (power) of Christ. If the gospel is about Christ's glory, then to preach the gospel is to preach the glory of Christ. So how is it that you and t8 and Mike can preach satan's glory?

Shame on all three of you!

February 4, 2012 at 7:46 pm#275896

terraricca

Participant

Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Feb. 05 2012,12:32)

Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 05 2012,04:46)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 05 2012,11:13)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 04 2012,12:01)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 04 2012,10:39)

Is there a scripture for your belief?

You mean besides 2 Cor 4:4? How about this one:

Good Mike!

Now who is it that has authority over those dominions, principalities and powers?

When you figure that out then you will see that Jesus is the God of this world/age!

Mike

Quote

wj;Now who is it that has authority over those dominions, principalities and powers?

you see how he switches to a other discussion,from the god of this world(this age of wickedness and rebellion against God ) to the supreme power ,

he is a deceiver,

Pierre

Pierre,

You are a foolish man! You say that satan is a ruler in the place of Jesus and then have the audacity to call Keith a “deceiver.”

“God has blinded the minds of the unbelieving of this age, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.'

You are indeed among those whom God has blinded.

Shame on all three of you!

jkoo

Quote

“God has blinded the minds of the unbelieving of this age, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.'

PLEASE TELL ME WHO ARE THOSE UNBELIEVERS,AND WHY DID PAUL AND FOR WHOM DID HE PREACH THAT GOSPEL,??

Pierre

February 4, 2012 at 7:51 pm#275897

Participant

Keith said to Mike:

Quote

My Bible tells me that all things and all authority in the earth is in Jesus hands!

Keith,

There is not one scintillla of evidence in the scripture that God has turned authority over to satan. I'll tell you what this is all about. This is about Mike and t8 having their “hotheos” argument in reference to satan pulled from under their feet. If Paul did not call satan “hotheos” in 2 Corinthians 4:4, then there is no place in the new testament where he is called “hotheos” and their argument that Jesus is “hotheos” in the “same sense as satan” falls to the ground.

They're clinging for dear life bro. It is soooo obvious!

Both the context and the syntax require that 4:4 read thus:

“God has blinded the minds of the unbelieving of this age, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.”

The context requires this reading because:

1. It was the veil that Moses put over his face that blinded the minds of men in Moses' day and that veil remains “unlifted TO THIS DAY” (Paul's day).

2. Many ancient Greek scholars said that the expression “of this age” is amphibolous and refers to unbelievers and not to “hotheos” (the God). This parallels with what Paul had just said about people in Moses' time being blinded by the veil and also in “this age.”

3. Christ is explicitly said to be the image of “hotheos” in clause 2. Therefore, the one called “hotheos” in clause 1 cannot refer to satan but to God.

Yet t8 said that my “error” is the result of Trinitarian doctrine even though it is Trinitarian translations that have led him to think that satan is “hotheos.”

Give it up t8! You and your lil pup Mike are just clinging for dear life!

Jack

February 4, 2012 at 8:04 pm#275901

terraricca

Participant

Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Feb. 05 2012,12:51)

Keith said to Mike:

Quote

My Bible tells me that all things and all authority in the earth is in Jesus hands!

Keith,

They're clinging for dear life bro. It is soooo obvious!

Both the context and the syntax require that 4:4 read thus:

“God has blinded the minds of the unbelieving of this age, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.”

The context requires this reading because:

1. It was the veil that Moses put over his face that blinded the minds of men in Moses' day and that veil remains “unlifted TO THIS DAY” (Paul's day).

3. Christ is explicitly said to be the image of “hotheos” in clause 2. Therefore, the one called “hotheos” in clause 1 cannot refer to satan but to God.

Yet t8 said that my “error” is the result of Trinitarian doctrine even though it is Trinitarian translations that have led him to think that satan is “hotheos.”

Give it up t8! You and your lil pup Mike are just clinging for dear life!

Jack

KOO J

Eph 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,

To the saints in Ephesus, the faithful in Christ Jesus:

the unbelievers that Paul focus on are the Jews,and his letter is not addressed to all but to the saints or believers,either Jews or gentiles ,

and the veil of Moses face is on the Jews not for the gentiles

and so you still a deceiver,

God is the all mighty God and the fact that he give the works to do to his son does not change anything,this world still in the dark ,the light of Christ is for the believers few,to find their way to live
all others are part of this world and age and so serve Satan purpose ,

and this still Satan world ,but soon the son will put him in chains,

Pierre

February 4, 2012 at 8:33 pm#275906

Worshipping Jesus

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 04 2012,12:45)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 04 2012,11:13)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 04 2012,12:01)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 04 2012,10:39)

Is there a scripture for your belief?

You mean besides 2 Cor 4:4? How about this one:

Good Mike!

Now who is it that has authority over those dominions, principalities and powers?

What does the scripture say, Keith? For a time, it is Satan who has dominion over this world. Don't confuse him having dominion with him being more powerful than his own God who created him.

Mike

This is what the scrptures say…

And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and IN EARTH. Matt 28:18

Do you believe these scriptures?

Why are you always defending the so-called god satan and his position or dominion which is beneath Jesus?

February 4, 2012 at 9:43 pm#275918

carmel

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 05 2012,06:33)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 04 2012,12:45)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 04 2012,11:13)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 04 2012,12:01)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 04 2012,10:39)

Is there a scripture for your belief?

You mean besides 2 Cor 4:4? How about this one:

Good Mike!

Now who is it that has authority over those dominions, principalities and powers?

What does the scripture say, Keith? For a time, it is Satan who has dominion over this world. Don't confuse him having dominion with him being more powerful than his own God who created him.

Mike

This is what the scrptures say…

And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and IN EARTH. Matt 28:18

Do you believe these scriptures?

Why are you always defending the so-called god satan and his position or dominion which is beneath Jesus?

Quote

Why are you always defending the so-called god satan and his position or dominion which is beneath Jesus?

WJ and all,

May I enter in this argument??

I think there's a misunderstanding!!

JESUS IS IN COMMAND THAT FOR SURE.

That doesn't mean that Satan is not running his business in his own planet.

BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN THAT JESUS IS NOT IN CONTROL OF THE SITUATION EITHER !!

Jesus confirmed that God's kingdom has come, and commenced its function through His church in all Christians no matter what since its in His name.

Again Satan is in full function right now, but when it is compared with the OT IT'S NOTHING he use to take almost all souls. As he is, he is going mad because he knows it's all in vain.

He is losing souls after souls mysteriously to us believe me.

The amount of natural disasters, which are on the increase all the time, it proves that he is desperate to come but only when Jesus gives him permission to do so, BORN THROUGH THE LABORATORY BECAUSE HE WILL NOT HAVE THE PLEASURE TO BE BORN THROUGH A WOMAN!!JESUS WILL NOT ALLOW HIM TO. HE HAD THE CHANCE BUT HE LOST IT,WHEN THE SON OF GOD WAS BORN INSTEAD!!!!!

SCIENCE ALREADY ACHIEVED IN GROWING BABIES UP TO FEW MONTHS OLD TO BE USED FOR EXPERIMENTS,AND THEN DESTROY THEM.

It is the same when Jesus gave him permission through Judah, when He dipped the bread in the gravy and ordered him to do quick what he wants to do, to prove that :

HE IS IN COMMAND EVEN TO KILL HIM,OR TO GLORIFY HIM AND KILL HIMSELF WITH HIS OWN ASSETTS. SIN AND DEATH

JOB 20:18He shall be punished for all that he did, and yet shall not be consumed: according to the multitude of his devices so also shall he suffer.

19 Because he broke in and stripped the poor: he hath violently taken away a house which he did not build.

20 And yet his belly was not filled: and when he hath the things he coveted, he shall not be able to possess them.

21 There was nothing left of his meat, and therefore nothing shall continue of his goods:

22 When he shall be filled, he shall be straitened, he shall burn, and every sorrow shall fall upon him.

23 May his belly be filled, that God may send forth the wrath of his indignation upon him, and rain down his war upon him.

24 He shall flee from weapons of iron, and shall fall upon a bow of brass.

25 The sword is drawn out, and cometh forth from its scabbard, and glittereth in his bitterness: the terrible ones shall go and come upon him.

26 All darkness is hid in his secret places: a fire that is not kindled shall devour him, he shall be afflicted when left in his tabernacle.

27 The heavens shall reveal his iniquity, and the earth shall rise up against him.

28 The offspring of his house shall be exposed, he shall be pulled down in the day of God's wrath.

29 This is the portion of a wicked man from God, and the inheritance of his doings from the Lord.

PEACE AND LOVE IN JESUS

CHARLES

February 4, 2012 at 11:45 pm#275928

Blocked

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 04 2012,13:33)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 04 2012,12:45)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 04 2012,11:13)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 04 2012,12:01)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 04 2012,10:39)

Is there a scripture for your belief?

You mean besides 2 Cor 4:4? How about this one:

Good Mike!

Now who is it that has authority over those dominions, principalities and powers?

What does the scripture say, Keith? For a time, it is Satan who has dominion over this world. Don't confuse him having dominion with him being more powerful than his own God who created him.

Mike

This is what the scrptures say…

And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and IN EARTH. Matt 28:18

Do you believe these scriptures?

Why are you always defending the so-called god satan and his position or dominion which is beneath Jesus?

Keith,

Pay close attention to the first words of your red quote……………God has INCOMPARABLY great power, and God used that power to raise Christ from the dead. As a sidenote, can't you see that “INCOMPARABLY GREAT POWER” means that even the power Jesus' God has GIVEN him does not compare to the power of the God who GAVE it?

And again, the word in Matthew 28:28 is AUTHORITY, not POWER.

Now that that's settled, can't you see what Pierre, t8, I, and even Charles are saying? We do not argue that God has (or will) set Jesus higher than Satan. We argue that the dominion of Jesus has not yet come to pass. Dominion over this world has, for a time, been handed BY GOD into the hands of Satan.

Trust me Keith………….you will notice the difference when Jesus begins to rule this world. He might be ruling over his Father's Kingdom in heaven right now – if Satan has indeed been cast out. If Revelation 12:10 has happened, like you and Jack say, then we are now in the time of 12:12: Woe to the earth, for Satan has come down to you, knowing HIS TIME IS SHORT………. Why “woe to the earth”, if Jesus is in charge of it right now? And what “time” of Satan is short? The time of his dominion over the world, right?

February 4, 2012 at 11:52 pm#275931

Participant

Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Feb. 05 2012,05:32)

Pierre,

You are a foolish man! You say that satan is a ruler in the place of Jesus and then have the audacity to call Keith a “deceiver.”

Wrong wrong wrong.
Wrong on all accounts.

Call no man a fool.
Satan is the God of this age.
Jesus is not the God of this age, rather he was made both Lord and Christ.

Back to the Drawing Board.

February 4, 2012 at 11:54 pm#275933

Blocked

Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Feb. 04 2012,12:51)

Keith,

There is not one scintillla of evidence in the scripture that God has turned authority over to satan.

Jack, how could Satan have offered Jesus the kingdoms of the world if they were not his to offer?

Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Feb. 04 2012,12:51)

I'll tell you what this is all about. This is about Mike and t8 having their “hotheos” argument in reference to satan pulled from under their feet. If Paul did not call satan “hotheos” in 2 Corinthians 4:4, then there is no place in the new testament where he is called “hotheos” and their argument that Jesus is “hotheos” in the “same sense as satan” falls to the ground.

And why would we be bound only to the NEW testament, Jack? Would not the “ho theos” of the LXX also work just the same for us?

If 2 Cor 4:4 wasn't about Satan, would it really change the fact that Satan and Jesus are two of the many gods that Jehovah is the God of? Of course not.

February 4, 2012 at 11:56 pm#275934

Participant

WJ and KJ take the stance they do ONLY because Satan is called THE God of this world.

They cannot handle the fact that THE God is applied to another because it shows that there logic for the Trinity Doctrine is wrong.
Once they can acknowledge the different ways that theos and elohim can be used, then one mail pillar of their beloved false doctrine falls over. Thus they will enforce the lie that YHWH is the God of this age to help preserve their other false doctrine that God is a substance made up of 3 persons.

February 4, 2012 at 11:59 pm#275937

Blocked

Yes t8,

We all see right through the real reason for this thread.

February 4, 2012 at 11:59 pm#275938

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 04 2012,13:06)

T8……………It is amazing to me why you can't believe what GOD out of His own Mouth has Said , Satan is NO GOD, there is No “TRUE” GOD except the LORD GOD ALMIGHTY, If you don't believe GOD'S own Words I posted to you then Believe Jesus Who s said “CLEARLY” “thou art the “ONLY” true GOD. Tell us T8 what part of “ONLY” don't you understand ? And don't give me this put my will to death stuff , becasue that is exactly what you and your Co-harts need to do. I not changing What GOD the FATHER and Jesus Said Here you are. If i have misquoted them PROVE IT. If GOD the FATHER tells me there is NO GOD BESIDE HIM and Jesus say He is the “ONLY TRUE GOD” I just chose to believe it even if you and your Co-hart don't believe GOD or Jesus and what they said.

peace and love…………………………………………………….gene

Gene.

Satan is not the God of any truth, but the God of a wicked world. He is not THE true God.

He is the God of this world. Being the God of this world does not qualify that God as the TRUE God.

Try again Gene.

February 5, 2012 at 12:18 am#275944

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 05 2012,09:54)

Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Feb. 04 2012,12:51)

And here is the kicker Mike.

KJ said in defence of his false Trinity Doctrine a while ago that the double use of the definite article is referring to 2 not 1. I can't remember what he was defending at the time to say that.

So I applied his own wisdom to John 20:28
“Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!””

This meant that his argument when applied to this verse meant that Thomas was referring to 2, i.e., the Lord and the God.

He went silent after that was pointed out to him.

This shows dishonesty in that he conveniently ignored that, and now he is on a crusade to prove that Satan is not THE God of this age because this would supposedly show that Jesus is not THE God in the same fashion that Satan is.

WJ should get real. Teachers are judged more severely and for this reason we are told that not many should be teachers. KJ ignores what doesn't suit his teaching and will apply certain wisdom in order to disprove us, but when it is applied to him, he ignores that part.

To conclude. KJ is trying to prove that Thomas acknowledged Jesus as God and without realizing it, he disproved that Thomas said this and that Thomas was referring to another. What KJ wants is that Thomas called Jesus THE GOD, and that Satan is not THE GOD of this age.

He can't have it both ways and of course it is entirely possible that Thomas was referring to Jesus as Lord and then referred to God and we know that Satan is the God of this age. But no, KJ will debate that Jesus is THE God and Satan is not THE God of this age. His only proof is his own understanding which we rightly reject as being inadequate in the highest degree.

KJ has lost this debate. He should be man enough to face up to the error of his teaching and repent.

February 5, 2012 at 12:23 am#275948

Participant

Mikeboll said:

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Trust me Keith………….you will notice the difference when Jesus begins to rule this world.

You don't know what you are talking about Mikey. Paul told the first generation chrisitans that satan would be crushed under THEIR feet SHORTLY (Rom. 16:20). Satan's demise was a reality to the first generation of christians. It is not us who will come to “notice” it. It was the first generation christians who came to “notice” it.

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He might be ruling over his Father's Kingdom in heaven right now – if Satan has indeed been cast out. If Revelation 12:10 has happened, like you and Jack say, then we are now in the time of 12:12: Woe to the earth, for Satan has come down to you, knowing HIS TIME IS SHORT……….

First, Revelation 12:10 us BEHIND us. We are in the new earth.

Second, the word “earth” is erroneous translation. It is literally “woe to the LAND” meaning the land of Israel. The Greek “ge” more often than not refers to just a piece of land and rarely refers to the whole earth. The woe is upon the land of Israel the whore of Revelation.

Young's Literal translation:

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12because of this be glad, ye heavens, and those in them who do tabernacle; wo to those inhabiting the LAND and the sea, because the Devil did go down unto you, having great wrath, having known that he hath little time.'

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And what “time” of Satan is short? The time of his dominion over the world, right?

Satan's short time is in the past. He is in the lake of fire now. The time of his dominion over the world (ISRAEL) is over. The “world” was Israel.

Jesus told His disciples that the “world” would hate them as they hated Him. Then He said that they hated Him as it is “written in THEIR LAW.” The Gentile “world” did not have the law Mike. Therefore, the “world” that satan had dominion over was Israel. Satan never had anything to do with the Gentile world.

Satan's business was apostasy. The Gentile “world” up to that time never had God so they could not become apostate. Only the “world” that had God could become apostate and that was Israel.

Biblical Israel (the “world”) is no more. We are in the new earth now.

Jack

February 5, 2012 at 12:51 am#275952

Blocked

Jack,

Where did you learn the stuff you just posted?

1. Are we to think that Paul's letters were addressed only to his generation? Does the NT not apply anymore to us in 2012? Satan and his army WILL eventually be trampled under the feet of Jesus and his saints – but that has not yet happened.

2. “Woe to the land and the sea” is somehow different than “woe to the earth”? How so?

3. Abraham is the father of MANY nations, and Gentiles are blessed because of him. There still remains a remnant of Israel to this very day, and many Gentiles are in that body. They have been grafted in.

February 5, 2012 at 12:52 am#275953

Participant

Quote (t8 @ Feb. 05 2012,10:18)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 05 2012,09:54)

Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Feb. 04 2012,12:51)

And here is the kicker Mike.

KJ said in defence of his false Trinity Doctrine a while ago that the double use of the definite article is referring to 2 not 1. I can't remember what he was defending at the time to say that.

So I applied his own wisdom to John 20:28
“Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!””

This meant that his argument when applied to this verse meant that Thomas was referring to 2, i.e., the Lord and the God.

He went silent after that was pointed out to him.

KJ has lost this debate. He should be man enough to face up to the error of his teaching and repent.

t8,

I have also indicated here that the two articles in John 20:28 are VOCATIVES addressed to Jesus Himself.

“And Thomas said to HIM (Jesus) “My Lord and my God.”

You totally avoided the fact that without 2 Corinthians 4:4 you have nothing in the new testament which says that satan is “hotheos.” Nada! Zilch! Zero!

So if you were an honest man yourself you would admit that in the context of 2 Corinthians 4:4 “hotheos” is God and NOT satan. Live up to your signature t8!

You reject my interpretation of 2 Corinthians 4:4 because it is not in your best interests. You could be honest and say, “Okay satan is not hotheos in 4:4 but this does not prove that Jesus is God?” You could still argue from John 10 where the Jews are called gods. But you NEED for Jesus to be even less than that. You NEED for Him to be a God “in the same sense as satan” and you know it.

Sorry Bub! But you don't have squat in the way of proof that satan is called “hotheos” in the new testament. Paul NEVER called satan “hotheos.”

So live up to your signature and admit it!

February 5, 2012 at 12:53 am#275954

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 05 2012,10:51)

Jack,

Where did you learn the stuff you just posted?

2. “Woe to the land and the sea” is somehow different than “woe to the earth”? How so?

You know I am a Preterist Mike. Just go to preteristarchive.com and acquaint yourself with Preterism.

Jack

February 5, 2012 at 12:54 am#275955

Blocked

Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Feb. 04 2012,17:52)

You could be honest and say, “Okay satan is not hotheos in 4:4 but this does not prove that Jesus is God?”

How would that make us honest, if we don't believe your interpretation? Jack, do any of the reknowned commentators interpret 2 Cor 4:4 the way you do? If so, who?

February 5, 2012 at 12:57 am#275957

Blocked

Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Feb. 04 2012,17:53)

You know I am a Preterist Mike. Just go to preteristarchive.com and acquaint yourself with Preterism.

Jack,

Listing yet another understanding of scripture in which you fell away from the narrow path is not going to lend you more credibility in this topic.

(I would keep your Preterist beliefs under your hat.)

February 5, 2012 at 3:18 am#275980