Satan

[Towshab]

Quote (david @ Nov. 20 2007,23:36)

Quote I'll believe it was more than allegory on both parts when you show me a talking snake and donkey. Old episodes of Mr. Ed withstanding. So, the donkey was also an allegory because donkeys don't normally talk. And all the miracles in the bible are allegories, because miracles don't happen. Is that the gist of it?

Let me ask you david, what do you consider to be a miracle? Now look at many of the miracles of both the Tanakh and your own new testament. Do you know of a single incidence of miracles on this scale outside of these? You again have to remember that these people were very primitive and likely much more easily impressed by natural phenomena than you or I. A natural disaster to them would simply be some act of G-d.

Like charity said, notice Balaam didn't even stop to ponder than this donkey was talking to him. Either he was used to talking to donkeys or this was an allegorical story. Or even perhaps Balaam was imagining the thoughts of the donkey as he stubbornly sat there. How many times have you tried to figure out the thoughts of a dog or another animal when they do certain things?

Maybe Balaam's conscience got the better of him and he imagined that the donkey stopped because G-d made him do it. Who knows. But again, please show me where there has ever been a recorded verifiable instance of a talking animal (besides a parrot) and we can discuss the actual reality of what went on from there.

[kenrch]

David do you believe that a God who created EVERYTHING has the ability to use a donkey? Actually make a donkey speak!

It would be easier to believe everything is an accident or just remain in part one.

[Stu]

Quote (kenrch @ Nov. 22 2007,03:07)

David do you believe that a God who created EVERYTHING has the ability to use a donkey?  Actually make a donkey speak! It would be easier to believe everything is an accident or just remain in part one.

To believe that snakes and donkeys literally speak in language understandable to humans is a pretty egocentric kind of myth, and does not ring true will our other experiences of life in this part of the cosmos. It is a peculiarity of fundamentalist christianity, and very few others, that the laws of nature (whatever their “source”) are occasionally suspended, just on this planet, in order to make some point about christian doctrine.

Stuart

[charity]

Quote (Stu @ Nov. 22 2007,04:52)

kenrch,Nov. wrote: David do you believe that a God who created EVERYTHING has the ability to use a donkey?  Actually make a donkey speak! that the laws of nature (whatever their “source”) are occasionally suspended, just on this planet, in order to make some point about christian doctrine.   Stuart

Laws a supended my source is Holywood

Mr Ed, the talking horse, Now Ive seen him for myself…

And there's a plant for Apes…

[IM4Truth]

Quote (charity @ Nov. 22 2007,05:53)

Quote (Stu @ Nov. 22 2007,04:52) kenrch,Nov. wrote: David do you believe that a God who created EVERYTHING has the ability to use a donkey?  Actually make a donkey speak! that the laws of nature (whatever their “source”) are occasionally suspended, just on this planet, in order to make some point about christian doctrine.   Stuart Laws a supended my source is Holywood Mr Ed, the talking horse, Now Ive seen him for myself… And there's a plant for Apes…

Lets see yes Stu can go to the Planet of the Apes, His Aviator is ready for it. Tow can go be Mr. Ed since He likes to talk so much. Would make a nice new Movie.
Mrs.

[david]

Quote

Let me ask you david, what do you consider to be a miracle? Now look at many of the miracles of both the Tanakh and your own new testament. Do you know of a single incidence of miracles on this scale outside of these? You again have to remember that these people were very primitive and likely much more easily impressed by natural phenomena than you or I. A natural disaster to them would simply be some act of G-d. Like charity said, notice Balaam didn't even stop to ponder than this donkey was talking to him. Either he was used to talking to donkeys or this was an allegorical story. Or even perhaps Balaam was imagining the thoughts of the donkey as he stubbornly sat there. How many times have you tried to figure out the thoughts of a dog or another animal when they do certain things? Maybe Balaam's conscience got the better of him and he imagined that the donkey stopped because G-d made him do it. Who knows. But again, please show me where there has ever been a recorded verifiable instance of a talking animal (besides a parrot) and we can discuss the actual reality of what went on from there.

–towshab.

so then, it's true.

You are here to undermine belief in the Bible, be it the Greek scriptures or the Hebrew. It doesn't really matter to you does it?

Quote

To believe that snakes and donkeys literally speak in language understandable to humans is a pretty egocentric kind of myth, and does not ring true will our other experiences of life in this part of the cosmos.

–stu

Of course, the same could be said of absolutely any miracle in the bible. And for that matter, in the past, there were many things that would not have rung true with our present experiences of life in this part of the cosmos.
Most things invented in the last century would be impossible magic fairy tale type stuff to the people of the 1500's. It would be voodoo, nonsense, impossibilities.

Of course, what seems impossible today, is often not impossible tomorrow.
Not that I believe the donkey or the snake were the ones doing the talking. There were spirit forces behind them both.
When I see a puppet on stage, I do not believe it is the puppet that is talking (even though he can be said to be talking) It is of course the one behind the puppet doing the work. This is what I believe with respect to these two instances.

To say that something is impossible because we don't understand it is….well….incorrect.
Most everything we take for granted today was impossible just a hundred years ago. What I'm doing now…sending you information as if by magic…try explaining that to someone who hasn't lived in the past century.

Again, the scripture says: “Jehovah opened the mouth of the ass.”
Of course I don't believe donkeys just talk by themselves. But I do believe that someone a lot smarter than we are who actually knows how the universe works, who created the laws, can bend them whenever he wants.

2 PETER 2:15-16
“Abandoning the straight path, they have been misled. They have followed the path of Ba′laam, [the son] of Be′or, who loved the reward of wrongdoing, but got a reproof for his own violation of what was right. A voiceless beast of burden, making utterance with the voice of a man, hindered the prophet’s mad course.”

The spirit creature behind the serpent that spoke to Eve is identified in the Bible as “the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan.” (Revelation 12:9)

Quote

To believe that snakes and donkeys literally speak in language understandable to humans is a pretty egocentric kind of myth,

No, stu, to believe in molecular evolution without any proof is to believe in a kind of myth. And to say that something is impossible because you don't presently understand it, is perhaps “egocentric.” Until you have an absolute understanding of how everything works, you should do as the smarter scientists do and simply say that something is extremely implausible based on current understanding. This way, they don't look dumb when they are shown wrong later.

[kenrch]

Quote (david @ Nov. 22 2007,08:39)

Quote Let me ask you david, what do you consider to be a miracle? Now look at many of the miracles of both the Tanakh and your own new testament. Do you know of a single incidence of miracles on this scale outside of these? You again have to remember that these people were very primitive and likely much more easily impressed by natural phenomena than you or I. A natural disaster to them would simply be some act of G-d. Like charity said, notice Balaam didn't even stop to ponder than this donkey was talking to him. Either he was used to talking to donkeys or this was an allegorical story. Or even perhaps Balaam was imagining the thoughts of the donkey as he stubbornly sat there. How many times have you tried to figure out the thoughts of a dog or another animal when they do certain things? Maybe Balaam's conscience got the better of him and he imagined that the donkey stopped because G-d made him do it. Who knows. But again, please show me where there has ever been a recorded verifiable instance of a talking animal (besides a parrot) and we can discuss the actual reality of what went on from there. –towshab. so then, it's true. You are here to undermine belief in the Bible, be it the Greek scriptures or the Hebrew. It doesn't really matter to you does it? Quote To believe that snakes and donkeys literally speak in language understandable to humans is a pretty egocentric kind of myth, and does not ring true will our other experiences of life in this part of the cosmos. –stu Of course, the same could be said of absolutely any miracle in the bible. And for that matter, in the past, there were many things that would not have rung true with our present experiences of life in this part of the cosmos. Most things invented in the last century would be impossible magic fairy tale type stuff to the people of the 1500's. It would be voodoo, nonsense, impossibilities. Of course, what seems impossible today, is often not impossible tomorrow. Not that I believe the donkey or the snake were the ones doing the talking. There were spirit forces behind them both. When I see a puppet on stage, I do not believe it is the puppet that is talking (even though he can be said to be talking) It is of course the one behind the puppet doing the work. This is what I believe with respect to these two instances. To say that something is impossible because we don't understand it is….well….incorrect. Most everything we take for granted today was impossible just a hundred years ago. What I'm doing now…sending you information as if by magic…try explaining that to someone who hasn't lived in the past century. Again, the scripture says: “Jehovah opened the mouth of the ass.” Of course I don't believe donkeys just talk by themselves. But I do believe that someone a lot smarter than we are who actually knows how the universe works, who created the laws, can bend them whenever he wants. 2 PETER 2:15-16 “Abandoning the straight path, they have been misled. They have followed the path of Ba′laam, [the son] of Be′or, who loved the reward of wrongdoing, but got a reproof for his own violation of what was right. A voiceless beast of burden, making utterance with the voice of a man, hindered the prophet’s mad course.” The spirit creature behind the serpent that spoke to Eve is identified in the Bible as “the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan.” (Revelation 12:9) Quote To believe that snakes and donkeys literally speak in language understandable to humans is a pretty egocentric kind of myth, No, stu, to believe in molecular evolution without any proof is to believe in a kind of myth. And to say that something is impossible because you don't presently understand it, is perhaps “egocentric.” Until you have an absolute understanding of how everything works, you should do as the smarter scientists do and simply say that something is extremely implausible based on current understanding. This way, they don't look dumb when they are shown wrong later.

Quote

so then, it's true. You are here to undermine belief in the Bible, be it the Greek scriptures or the Hebrew. It doesn't really matter to you does it?

2Jo 1:7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist.
2Jo 1:8 Watch yourselves, so that you may not lose what we have worked for, but may win a full reward.
2Jo 1:9 Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.
2Jo 1:10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting,
2Jo 1:11 for whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works.

[Towshab]

Quote (david @ Nov. 21 2007,15:39)

Quote Let me ask you david, what do you consider to be a miracle? Now look at many of the miracles of both the Tanakh and your own new testament. Do you know of a single incidence of miracles on this scale outside of these? You again have to remember that these people were very primitive and likely much more easily impressed by natural phenomena than you or I. A natural disaster to them would simply be some act of G-d. Like charity said, notice Balaam didn't even stop to ponder than this donkey was talking to him. Either he was used to talking to donkeys or this was an allegorical story. Or even perhaps Balaam was imagining the thoughts of the donkey as he stubbornly sat there. How many times have you tried to figure out the thoughts of a dog or another animal when they do certain things? Maybe Balaam's conscience got the better of him and he imagined that the donkey stopped because G-d made him do it. Who knows. But again, please show me where there has ever been a recorded verifiable instance of a talking animal (besides a parrot) and we can discuss the actual reality of what went on from there. –towshab. so then, it's true. You are here to undermine belief in the Bible, be it the Greek scriptures or the Hebrew. It doesn't really matter to you does it?

No I just happen to use my noggin when it comes to interpretation. An allegory is not necessarily false it has meaning and a message.

Quote

Quote To believe that snakes and donkeys literally speak in language understandable to humans is a pretty egocentric kind of myth, and does not ring true will our other experiences of life in this part of the cosmos. –stu Of course, the same could be said of absolutely any miracle in the bible. And for that matter, in the past, there were many things that would not have rung true with our present experiences of life in this part of the cosmos. Most things invented in the last century would be impossible magic fairy tale type stuff to the people of the 1500's. It would be voodoo, nonsense, impossibilities. Of course, what seems impossible today, is often not impossible tomorrow. Not that I believe the donkey or the snake were the ones doing the talking. There were spirit forces behind them both. When I see a puppet on stage, I do not believe it is the puppet that is talking (even though he can be said to be talking) It is of course the one behind the puppet doing the work. This is what I believe with respect to these two instances. To say that something is impossible because we don't understand it is….well….incorrect.

Since you combined Stu and my own response I'll give my take. It has little to do with understanding and moire to do with 'real life'. Why is it that the things that happened as miracles in the Tanakh and Christian bible are not seen today? Did G-d check out?

Quote

Most everything we take for granted today was impossible just a hundred years ago. What I'm doing now…sending you information as if by magic…try explaining that to someone who hasn't lived in the past century.

Hey there ya go! They had technology back then and could not explain it. But I still have to wonder how they may a snake and donkey talk.

Quote

Again, the scripture says: “Jehovah opened the mouth of the ass.” Of course I don't believe donkeys just talk by themselves. But I do believe that someone a lot smarter than we are who actually knows how the universe works, who created the laws, can bend them whenever he wants.

Yes He can but when has He done it in the last several 100 years?

Quote

2 PETER 2:15-16 “Abandoning the straight path, they have been misled. They have followed the path of Ba′laam, [the son] of Be′or, who loved the reward of wrongdoing, but got a reproof for his own violation of what was right. A voiceless beast of burden, making utterance with the voice of a man, hindered the prophet’s mad course.” The spirit creature behind the serpent that spoke to Eve is identified in the Bible as “the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan.” (Revelation 12:9)

What the?

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Sorry but that does not connect 'satan' with the serpent in the garden. Of course 'original sin' is a Christian thing.

Quote

Quote To believe that snakes and donkeys literally speak in language understandable to humans is a pretty egocentric kind of myth, No, stu, to believe in molecular evolution without any proof is to believe in a kind of myth. And to say that something is impossible because you don't presently understand it, is perhaps “egocentric.” Until you have an absolute understanding of how everything works, you should do as the smarter scientists do and simply say that something is extremely implausible based on current understanding. This way, they don't look dumb when they are shown wrong later.

That one is for Stu.

[Towshab]

Quote (kenrch @ Nov. 21 2007,20:53)

2Jo 1:7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist.

Gasp! No I can't be an antichrist! Snore.

Quote

2Jo 1:8 Watch yourselves, so that you may not lose what we have worked for, but may win a full reward.

Hey I like that. 'What we have WORKED for'. Nothing about G-d, all about what they worked for.

Quote

2Jo 1:9 Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.

What god? Zeus? Jupiter? Mithras? Certainly not YHVH.

Quote

2Jo 1:10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting, 2Jo 1:11 for whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works.

I won't be stopping by any time soon so no worries.

[IM4Truth]

Quote (kenrch @ Nov. 22 2007,13:53)

Quote (david @ Nov. 22 2007,08:39) Quote Let me ask you david, what do you consider to be a miracle? Now look at many of the miracles of both the Tanakh and your own new testament. Do you know of a single incidence of miracles on this scale outside of these? You again have to remember that these people were very primitive and likely much more easily impressed by natural phenomena than you or I. A natural disaster to them would simply be some act of G-d. Like charity said, notice Balaam didn't even stop to ponder than this donkey was talking to him. Either he was used to talking to donkeys or this was an allegorical story. Or even perhaps Balaam was imagining the thoughts of the donkey as he stubbornly sat there. How many times have you tried to figure out the thoughts of a dog or another animal when they do certain things? Maybe Balaam's conscience got the better of him and he imagined that the donkey stopped because G-d made him do it. Who knows. But again, please show me where there has ever been a recorded verifiable instance of a talking animal (besides a parrot) and we can discuss the actual reality of what went on from there. –towshab. so then, it's true. You are here to undermine belief in the Bible, be it the Greek scriptures or the Hebrew.  It doesn't really matter to you does it? Quote To believe that snakes and donkeys literally speak in language understandable to humans is a pretty egocentric kind of myth, and does not ring true will our other experiences of life in this part of the cosmos. –stu Of course, the same could be said of absolutely any miracle in the bible.   And for that matter, in the past, there were many things that would not have rung true with our present experiences of life in this part of the cosmos. Most things invented in the last century would be impossible magic fairy tale type stuff to the people of the 1500's.  It would be voodoo, nonsense, impossibilities.   Of course, what seems impossible today, is often not impossible tomorrow. Not that I believe the donkey or the snake were the ones doing the talking.  There were spirit forces behind them both.   When I see a puppet on stage, I do not believe it is the puppet that is talking (even though he can be said to be talking)  It is of course the one behind the puppet doing the work.  This is what I believe with respect to these two instances.   To say that something is impossible because we don't understand it is….well….incorrect. Most everything we take for granted today was impossible just a hundred years ago.  What I'm doing now…sending you information as if by magic…try explaining that to someone who hasn't lived in the past century.   Again, the scripture says: “Jehovah opened the mouth of the ass.” Of course I don't believe donkeys just talk by themselves.  But I do believe that someone a lot smarter than we are who actually knows how the universe works, who created the laws, can bend them whenever he wants.   2 PETER 2:15-16 “Abandoning the straight path, they have been misled. They have followed the path of Ba′laam, [the son] of Be′or, who loved the reward of wrongdoing, but got a reproof for his own violation of what was right. A voiceless beast of burden, making utterance with the voice of a man, hindered the prophet’s mad course.” The spirit creature behind the serpent that spoke to Eve is identified in the Bible as “the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan.” (Revelation 12:9) Quote To believe that snakes and donkeys literally speak in language understandable to humans is a pretty egocentric kind of myth, No, stu, to believe in molecular evolution without any proof is to believe in a kind of myth.   And to say that something is impossible because you don't presently understand it, is perhaps “egocentric.”  Until you have an absolute understanding of how everything works, you should do as the smarter scientists do and simply say that something is extremely implausible based on current understanding.  This way, they don't look dumb when they are shown wrong later. Quote so then, it's true. You are here to undermine belief in the Bible, be it the Greek scriptures or the Hebrew.  It doesn't really matter to you does it? 2Jo 1:7  For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist. 2Jo 1:8  Watch yourselves, so that you may not lose what we have worked for, but may win a full reward. 2Jo 1:9  Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. 2Jo 1:10  If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting, 2Jo 1:11  for whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works.

David I agree with this.

Peace and Love Mrs.

[Stu]

Quote (IM4Truth @ Nov. 22 2007,06:15)

Quote (charity @ Nov. 22 2007,05:53) Quote (Stu @ Nov. 22 2007,04:52) kenrch,Nov. wrote: David do you believe that a God who created EVERYTHING has the ability to use a donkey?  Actually make a donkey speak! that the laws of nature (whatever their “source”) are occasionally suspended, just on this planet, in order to make some point about christian doctrine.   Stuart Laws a supended my source is Holywood Mr Ed, the talking horse, Now Ive seen him for myself… And there's a plant for Apes… Lets see yes Stu can go to the Planet of the Apes, His Aviator is ready for it. Tow can go be Mr. Ed since He likes to talk so much. Would make a nice new Movie. Mrs.

I would have to play an organgutan in Planet of the Apes, but they are depicted as conservative and pedantic in that story. Surely there are others here who would fit that ape suit better?!

I though it was Kenrch who used to have the aviator avatar!

Stuart

[Stu]

stu :To believe that snakes and donkeys literally speak in language understandable to humans is a pretty egocentric kind of myth, and does not ring true will our other experiences of life in this part of the cosmos.

Hi David

Quote

Of course, the same could be said of absolutely any miracle in the bible.

Yes, all of them in fact.

Quote

And for that matter, in the past, there were many things that would not have rung true with our present experiences of life in this part of the cosmos. Most things invented in the last century would be impossible magic fairy tale type stuff to the people of the 1500's. It would be voodoo, nonsense, impossibilities. Of course, what seems impossible today, is often not impossible tomorrow. Most everything we take for granted today was impossible just a hundred years ago. What I'm doing now…sending you information as if by magic…try explaining that to someone who hasn't lived in the past century.

From Wikipedia:
*************
Arthur C. Clarke formulated the following three “laws” of prediction:
1. When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong.
2. The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible.
3. Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
**************

But, you’re not trying to tell me that our increasing understanding of the natural world is pointing us in the direction of a Genesis explanation, are you?

Quote

Not that I believe the donkey or the snake were the ones doing the talking. There were spirit forces behind them both. When I see a puppet on stage, I do not believe it is the puppet that is talking (even though he can be said to be talking) It is of course the one behind the puppet doing the work. This is what I believe with respect to these two instances. Again, the scripture says: “Jehovah opened the mouth of the ass.”

OK, spirit forces. That explains it perfectly! What an idiot I have been not to have thought of that {/sarcasm}

Quote

To say that something is impossible because we don't understand it is….well….incorrect.

At Last!! Creationism exposed!

Quote

Of course I don't believe donkeys just talk by themselves. But I do believe that someone a lot smarter than we are who actually knows how the universe works, who created the laws, can bend them whenever he wants.

To me these two beliefs are indistinguishable, and both are risible.

Stu: To believe that snakes and donkeys literally speak in language understandable to humans is a pretty egocentric kind of myth,

Quote

No, stu, to believe in molecular evolution without any proof is to believe in a kind of myth.

You believe in a god without proof. Is that a kind of myth too?

Quote

And to say that something is impossible because you don't presently understand it, is perhaps “egocentric.”

I would agree with you, and I wish people here understood better their evolutionary past.

Quote

Until you have an absolute understanding of how everything works, you should do as the smarter scientists do and simply say that something is extremely implausible based on current understanding. This way, they don't look dumb when they are shown wrong later.

Creationism, talking donkeys and snakes, a man born of one biological parent, a man being able to see all kingdoms from one high mountain, the value of pi increasing from 3.00 to 3.14, all land animals fitted onto one big boat, people in the past living for many hundreds of years, a man walking after his own death, making of a man from dirt and a woman from a rib, starting from two individuals a population of animals as complex as humans, walking on the surface of water without support, giants roaming the earth, one man naming all animals, plant life surviving a worldwide flood, a worldwide flood, languages created in an instant, insects having four legs, bats being a kind of bird, some birds having four feet, and the existence of unicorns are extremely implausible based on current understanding.

Don’t you think this might be a bit of an understatement?

Stuart

[IM4Truth]

Quote (kenrch @ Nov. 22 2007,13:53)

Quote (david @ Nov. 22 2007,08:39) Quote Let me ask you david, what do you consider to be a miracle? Now look at many of the miracles of both the Tanakh and your own new testament. Do you know of a single incidence of miracles on this scale outside of these? You again have to remember that these people were very primitive and likely much more easily impressed by natural phenomena than you or I. A natural disaster to them would simply be some act of G-d. Like charity said, notice Balaam didn't even stop to ponder than this donkey was talking to him. Either he was used to talking to donkeys or this was an allegorical story. Or even perhaps Balaam was imagining the thoughts of the donkey as he stubbornly sat there. How many times have you tried to figure out the thoughts of a dog or another animal when they do certain things? Maybe Balaam's conscience got the better of him and he imagined that the donkey stopped because G-d made him do it. Who knows. But again, please show me where there has ever been a recorded verifiable instance of a talking animal (besides a parrot) and we can discuss the actual reality of what went on from there. –towshab. so then, it's true. You are here to undermine belief in the Bible, be it the Greek scriptures or the Hebrew.  It doesn't really matter to you does it? Quote To believe that snakes and donkeys literally speak in language understandable to humans is a pretty egocentric kind of myth, and does not ring true will our other experiences of life in this part of the cosmos. –stu Of course, the same could be said of absolutely any miracle in the bible.   And for that matter, in the past, there were many things that would not have rung true with our present experiences of life in this part of the cosmos. Most things invented in the last century would be impossible magic fairy tale type stuff to the people of the 1500's.  It would be voodoo, nonsense, impossibilities.   Of course, what seems impossible today, is often not impossible tomorrow. Not that I believe the donkey or the snake were the ones doing the talking.  There were spirit forces behind them both.   When I see a puppet on stage, I do not believe it is the puppet that is talking (even though he can be said to be talking)  It is of course the one behind the puppet doing the work.  This is what I believe with respect to these two instances.   To say that something is impossible because we don't understand it is….well….incorrect. Most everything we take for granted today was impossible just a hundred years ago.  What I'm doing now…sending you information as if by magic…try explaining that to someone who hasn't lived in the past century.   Again, the scripture says: “Jehovah opened the mouth of the ass.” Of course I don't believe donkeys just talk by themselves.  But I do believe that someone a lot smarter than we are who actually knows how the universe works, who created the laws, can bend them whenever he wants.   2 PETER 2:15-16 “Abandoning the straight path, they have been misled. They have followed the path of Ba′laam, [the son] of Be′or, who loved the reward of wrongdoing, but got a reproof for his own violation of what was right. A voiceless beast of burden, making utterance with the voice of a man, hindered the prophet’s mad course.” The spirit creature behind the serpent that spoke to Eve is identified in the Bible as “the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan.” (Revelation 12:9) Quote To believe that snakes and donkeys literally speak in language understandable to humans is a pretty egocentric kind of myth, No, stu, to believe in molecular evolution without any proof is to believe in a kind of myth.   And to say that something is impossible because you don't presently understand it, is perhaps “egocentric.”  Until you have an absolute understanding of how everything works, you should do as the smarter scientists do and simply say that something is extremely implausible based on current understanding.  This way, they don't look dumb when they are shown wrong later. Quote so then, it's true. You are here to undermine belief in the Bible, be it the Greek scriptures or the Hebrew.  It doesn't really matter to you does it? 2Jo 1:7  For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist. 2Jo 1:8  Watch yourselves, so that you may not lose what we have worked for, but may win a full reward. 2Jo 1:9  Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. 2Jo 1:10  If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting, 2Jo 1:11  for whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works.

Ken Agreed.
Peace and Love Mrs.

[kenrch]

Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

Heb 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

Heb 6:3 And this will we do, if God permit.

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

[kenrch]

Quote (kenrch @ Nov. 24 2007,01:43)

Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Heb 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. Heb 6:3 And this will we do, if God permit. Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Mat 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

[david]

Quote

OK, spirit forces. That explains it perfectly! What an idiot I have been not to have thought of that

It's so strange that to be correct, you must use sarcasm. Every word above, correct.

I feel a little silly explaining extra dimensions to stu, but here goes: Imagine a world that has only two dimensions: Flatworld. On this world, you can go only up or down. (Of course, such a world existing…but anyway,) This world exists on a giant sheet. The ones on flatworld can only see along the paper. They can’t see into our third dimension, the dimension we live in. To those on flatworld, if we picked someone up off the sheet and set them down in another spot, it would be a miracle.
To us, it’s just the exercise of our power. To them, they disappeared and reappeared somewhere else. Every time you pushed your three dimensional finger into their world, it would have miraculous results.
To them, miracles, unexplainable. To us, in a higher dimension, completely explainable.
I read this book “hyperspace” several times. I think that’s the easiest way to explain it.

These spirit creatures that many scoff at live in an even higher dimension. We can’t see them, much like the people trapped in that two dimensional world could never see us, unless we pressed our face into the paper.

To someone on such a two dimensional flatworld, the idea of a third dimension is ridiculous. Impossible. Crazy. It’s impossible to imagine or visualize.

I’ve often tried to visualize a forth spatial dimension. It’s impossible as well. Yes, math can show it, but it doesn’t make sense visually. Anyway,

I'm glad you understand this:

Quote

From Wikipedia: ************* Arthur C. Clarke formulated the following three “laws” of prediction: 1. When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong. 2. The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible. 3. Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. **************

Actually, I'm glad you could find it and copy it. I'm not sure you do understand it. What you call magic, is the science of tommorow. What you call impossible, is just your limited three dimensional mind.
“When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong.”
So as I said, the “smarter” scientists have taken up the trend of saying things aren't impossible, but only “very improbable.” I'd go with that trend if I were you.

[Laurel]

The “snake” was eating the fruit from the tree of good and evil. Eve saw this. Her mind being flesh thought about how the snake could eat and live but she could not. She imagined eating it and being like the snake, surviving. She imagined how good this forbiden fruit would taste and how good it looked. It was very “tempting”. So she took what YHWH made that was for her own good (His Command) and mixed it with what she thought was good (her evil fleshy imagination) and did eat. At this point she became an adulteress to YHWH, unfaithful to Him, and now faithful to her own lust, and Satan's temtation.

Satan, is the tempter. Satan is the ruler of the world. Where Satan is… there is enmity for YHWH our Elohim. Enmity, through belief in Y'shua Messiah was destroyed upon His sacrifice.

YHWH told the Temter he would become the one hated, through the seed of the woman. The Messiah!

The tree of good and evil is this, “Taking what is good and mixing it with our own imagined good, which in reality is evil.”

The Christmas tree is a perfect example of the “Three of Good and Evil”. Human being have concocted in their own imagination, a Feast to YHWH. They say it is to celebrate Messiah's birth. However, the Christmas Feast is a sham. Christmas like the celebrations that Jeraboam held in the book of Kings, was a selfish act to keep YHWH's people from worshiping Him on His Feast days. Jeraboam was worried that the people would not return to his ruling in his land, if they went up to Jerusalem for the True Feast. So Jeraboam made two calves and set thwm up and told the people these were their gods. He made his feast on the eight month according to his own will. He has the right to be free to choose you know. The people also had the right to choose where they wanted to worship, and when.

They chose to do it Jeraboam's way because it was more convenient, and more fun.

Today we all have freedom to choose as well.

The story of Jeraboam, Scripture tells us, is the reason Israel (the House of Jacob) is still sinning to this very day!!!

All who have truely chosen to follow Y'shua Messiah, no longer have enmity for YHWH our Elohim, His Word, His Son. We become filled with His Set-apart Spirit of Truth. Our enmity now falls on anything that does not come from Him, (Satan and our own lusts). At least that is what happened to me.

[Laurel]

Stu,
I was a passenger on a horse. My friend Kathy was “driving.” We were going along nicely and the horse decided to stop. Kathy kicked it several times to make it walk. The horse reared up and we both slid off. Afterward, we saw a large piece of paper on the trial that spooked the horse. The horse “told us” there was something unusual on the trail that we needed to look out for. By ingnoring the horse, we ended up on the ground.

This is an example of another story in Scripture. Animals can sense things before humans do.

I know of a cat that lives in a nursing home. It senses when a patient is dying. The cat goes to the room, curls up on the bed, and stays there until the person is gone. The people at the nursing home know now to call in the family when the cat refuses to leave the side of the patient.

Why would it seem so strange to you that a donkey can communicate, or a fish, or a bird etc..

YHWH made us all. Not one sparrow falls to the ground without Him knowing about it. Scripture says that animals know from where they get their food, and what the seasons are.

I have an unusual dog that looks heaven-ward, as if he is hearing a voice. He also watches television, as well my little dog.

My little dog barks at “scary” television, and animals on tv.

[Not3in1]

Quote (Laurel @ Nov. 24 2007,17:23)

I know of a cat that lives in a nursing home. It senses when a patient is dying. The cat goes to the room, curls up on the bed, and stays there until the person is gone. The people at the nursing home know now to call in the family when the cat refuses to leave the side of the patient. m

My sister runs an assisted living in Alaska and many folks have died in her home while there. They have a little pug dog who does this very same thing that you are speaking of. They also know that when the dog comes into the room and will not leave……that the person is not far from death (maybe a day or two away). Without fail this has been the case. Strange, huh?

Good thing the residents are unaware of this phenomena.

[Stu]

Quote (david @ Nov. 24 2007,11:52)

Quote OK, spirit forces.  That explains it perfectly!  What an idiot I have been not to have thought of that It's so strange that to be correct, you must use sarcasm.  Every word above, correct. I feel a little silly explaining extra dimensions to stu, but here goes: Imagine a world that has only two dimensions: Flatworld.  On this world, you can go only up or down.  (Of course, such a world existing…but anyway,) This world exists on a giant sheet.  The ones on flatworld can only see along the paper.  They can’t see into our third dimension, the dimension we live in.  To those on flatworld, if we picked someone up off the sheet and set them down in another spot, it would be a miracle. To us, it’s just the exercise of our power.  To them, they disappeared and reappeared somewhere else.  Every time you pushed your three dimensional finger into their world, it would have miraculous results. To them, miracles, unexplainable.  To us, in a higher dimension, completely explainable. I read this book “hyperspace” several times.  I think that’s the easiest way to explain it.   These spirit creatures that many scoff at live in an even higher dimension.  We can’t see them, much like the people trapped in that two dimensional world could never see us, unless we pressed our face into the paper.   To someone on such a two dimensional flatworld, the idea of a third dimension is ridiculous.  Impossible.  Crazy.  It’s impossible to imagine or visualize. I’ve often tried to visualize a forth spatial dimension.  It’s impossible as well.  Yes, math can show it, but it doesn’t make sense visually.  Anyway, I'm glad you understand this: Quote From Wikipedia: ************* Arthur C. Clarke formulated the following three “laws” of prediction: 1. When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong. 2. The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible. 3. Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. ************** Actually, I'm glad you could find it and copy it.  I'm not sure you do understand it.  What you call magic, is the science of tommorow.  What you call impossible, is just your limited three dimensional mind. “When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong.” So as I said, the “smarter” scientists have taken up the trend of saying things aren't impossible, but only “very improbable.”  I'd go with that trend if I were you.

Gee David, have you enrolled in Patronising 101, or something?

You ahve obviously entirely missed the point of just about everything I have posted that is science-related in the last month.

I accept there could be a god, but the probability is vanishingly small. You do not accept the possibility there is no god. Please read your post and apply it to yourself!

Stuart

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