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Quote (WhatIsTrue @ May 30 2009,14:57) But the whole sacrificial system, from Moses to Jesus, was based on the injustice of making something else, or someone else, pay for your personal misdeeds.
Who created and demanded that UNJUST system?Tim
Tim,
According to scripture: God.
I should clarify, though, that under the OT system, it at least cost the sinner something. It was still scapegoating, but you had to at least pay for the goat.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 01 2009,11:10) Hi WIT,
Those who muse and fiddle about in human theories get totally befuddled because the theories are limited by our blindness and utterly incapable of encompassing our God. Abide in the scriptures.
1 Peter 3:15: “…always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you… .”Here are the questions again:
Quote The price of sin is: A) The experience of death
B) Permanent death (i.e permanent destruction)
C) Something else entirelyJesus paid for sin by:
A) Experiencing death
B) Permanently dying (i.e permanent destruction)
C) Some other way entirelyQuote (Nick Hassan @ June 02 2009,02:18) Hi WIT,
Understanding theology has nothing to do with our hope.
Who mentioned theology? I am trying to discuss the fundamentals of salvation with you.If salvation is not the source of your hope, then I can understand your reluctance to think very hard about it, but if it is:
Quote The price of sin is: A) The experience of death
B) Permanent death (i.e permanent destruction)
C) Something else entirelyJesus paid for sin by:
A) Experiencing death
B) Permanently dying (i.e permanent destruction)
C) Some other way entirelyI await your “ready defense”.
Hi WhatisTrue:
You ask:
Quote
What punishment awaits someone who is found guilty in God's court? Did Jesus pay that very same penalty?As you have stated the scripture states that the wages of sin is death. Death means separation from God not just the detioration of the flesh body. A Christian soul is saved from destruction, but his body continues to detiorate and he will either die a physical death or he will be here when the Lord comes for the church in which case he will be transformed and receive a spiritual body without dieing a physical death. Those who have died in Christ will receive a spiritual body at his coming in the first resurrection.
All of humanity has sinned and are separated from God through these trespasses of God's Law, if they have not been reconciled to God, and Jesus has paid the price for all of humanity for this first death or separation from God. He paid the price for the first death or separation from God in that he obeyed God without sin even unto death on the cross.
The penalty for the second death he did not pay, and somenone who is not saved will pay this penalty himself. The punishment will be according to the life that the person lived, or in other words according to that person's works, and it will be eternal death, or eternal separation from God.
Love in Christ,
MartyHi WhatisTrue:
One other thought that I would share with you is that the scripture states that salvation is a gift from God. In other words, we did not earn it or we cannot buy it.
But we, as Christians are the Lord's disciples, suffer the same insults and persecutions that the Lord suffered as we learn to walk in obedience to God's Word for our sakes as well as for those who will be saved through the life that we live.
In other words, it isn't easy to be a Christian.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (t8 @ May 30 2009,03:11) If you pay your own price, then you die. With what are you raised from the dead?
I look at it like a branch of leaf on a tree. When a branch is broken off the tree it whithers and dies. End of story.
Scripture talks of a grafting into the true vine, so that we can live.
So nonbeleivers simply cease to be (they die a normal death) and that is it? Not too shabby considering that is all most of them expect in the first place.But you didn't complete the theology. According to your bible, the nonbelievers are tossed in a alke of fire to be tormented for eternity or to go “poof”. If the first is a reality, why did you leave it off? If the second is true, why does biblegod even bother? Just so he can rub it in a nonbeliever's face and say “told you so”?
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ June 02 2009,08:58) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 02 2009,02:18) Hi WIT,
Understanding theology has nothing to do with our hope.
Who mentioned theology? I am trying to discuss the fundamentals of salvation with you.If salvation is not the source of your hope, then I can understand your reluctance to think very hard about it, but if it is:
Quote The price of sin is: A) The experience of death
B) Permanent death (i.e permanent destruction)
C) Something else entirelyJesus paid for sin by:
A) Experiencing death
B) Permanently dying (i.e permanent destruction)
C) Some other way entirelyI await your “ready defense”.
Hi WIT,
I have no doubts about the salvation given in Jesus.
The details of the hows often trip up intellectuals.
Simplicity is the safest course that avoids them.Marty,
Thanks for the earnest reply.
You wrote:
Quote He paid the price for the first death or separation from God in that he obeyed God without sin even unto death on the cross. The penalty for the second death he did not pay, and somenone who is not saved will pay this penalty himself.
I have highlighted the portion of your post that makes the least sense to me. When you say, “paid the price”, it's not clear exactly what you mean. I have rephrased the issue this way:
Quote Try answering this question: The price of sin is:
A) The experience of death
B) Permanent death (i.e permanent destruction)
C) Something else entirely, (please specify)Jesus paid for sin by:
A) Experiencing death
B) Permanently dying (i.e permanent destruction)
C) Some other way entirely, (please specify)See if your two answers line up.
Quote (942767 @ June 02 2009,09:49) Hi WhatisTrue: One other thought that I would share with you is that the scripture states that salvation is a gift from God. In other words, we did not earn it or we cannot buy it.
But we, as Christians are the Lord's disciples, suffer the same insults and persecutions that the Lord suffered as we learn to walk in obedience to God's Word for our sakes as well as for those who will be saved through the life that we live.
In other words, it isn't easy to be a Christian.
Love in Christ,
Marty
You poor thing. Not only is it difficult to believe absurdities but people tell you that you are absurd because you do.Saul of Tarsus was the master of the underdog card. Would you say that it is chiefly he who is responsible for the victimhood mentality of so many christians?
Stuart
Quote (942767 @ June 02 2009,09:34) Hi WhatisTrue: You ask:
Quote
What punishment awaits someone who is found guilty in God's court? Did Jesus pay that very same penalty?As you have stated the scripture states that the wages of sin is death. Death means separation from God not just the detioration of the flesh body. A Christian soul is saved from destruction, but his body continues to detiorate and he will either die a physical death or he will be here when the Lord comes for the church in which case he will be transformed and receive a spiritual body without dieing a physical death. Those who have died in Christ will receive a spiritual body at his coming in the first resurrection.
All of humanity has sinned and are separated from God through these trespasses of God's Law, if they have not been reconciled to God, and Jesus has paid the price for all of humanity for this first death or separation from God. He paid the price for the first death or separation from God in that he obeyed God without sin even unto death on the cross.
The penalty for the second death he did not pay, and somenone who is not saved will pay this penalty himself. The punishment will be according to the life that the person lived, or in other words according to that person's works, and it will be eternal death, or eternal separation from God.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty: Greetings, I have a question. You mentioned that,..all of humanity has sinned and are separaed from God through these trespasses of Gods Law…First, there was no sin committed in the Garden of Eden, God never used the word there. It was Adam that claimed what sin was in Gen Ch 4:6. There was no Law of God at that time and where there is no Law there can be no sin or transgression. God did not establish sin, man did!!Sin was established by Adam as something either done wrong or the punishment for it. That idea was then passed on down the line as something God said but that is untrue. It was always an error in thinking or a mistaken belief. Even the idea of sin separating man from God. How can we be separated from a God who is everywhere? He's within and without. There is no place where he is not. If sin is just thinking wrong it totally changes everything! Thats why Jesus had to come and tell the Truth to the religious world who was lost in error/sin! Have a blessed day, TKQuote (WhatIsTrue @ June 02 2009,15:56) Marty, Thanks for the earnest reply.
You wrote:
Quote He paid the price for the first death or separation from God in that he obeyed God without sin even unto death on the cross. The penalty for the second death he did not pay, and somenone who is not saved will pay this penalty himself.
I have highlighted the portion of your post that makes the least sense to me. When you say, “paid the price”, it's not clear exactly what you mean. I have rephrased the issue this way:
Quote Try answering this question: The price of sin is:
A) The experience of death
B) Permanent death (i.e permanent destruction)
C) Something else entirely, (please specify)Jesus paid for sin by:
A) Experiencing death
B) Permanently dying (i.e permanent destruction)
C) Some other way entirely, (please specify)See if your two answers line up.
Hi WhatisTrue:It appears to me that you are trying to rephrase the issue so that you can say that Jesus did not pay the price for sin.
All of humanity has sinned, and the penalty if one continues in sin without repenting is the destruction of one's soul by punishment according to the life that a person lived. This is called the second death or eternal separation from God. As I have stated Jesus did not pay the penalty for this second death.
From the first death or separation from God, a person is being called into a relationship with God through the sacrifice that God has provided for their sins. A person is saved because they have believed what God has done for them through the sacrifice of His Son, and have come to Him with a repentant heart.
Jesus suffered all the punishment that he suffered and died a condemned accused of those who crucified him of blasphemy, but God said he was not guilty of sin and raised him from the dead.
When someone is reconciled to God through the sacrifice of Jesus, he also dies unto sin and raised from the dead and declared not guilty of sin simply because one has believed that God has done this for him.
If Jesus had not been raised from the dead, there would be no accountabilty for men's sin, they would simply have lived and died, but now, men will have to give an account to God for the life they lived either by coming through him with a repentant heart and learning to obey Him in the body of Christ, or they will have to go through the second death and be punished for their sins because they chose not accept what He has done for them in favor of continuing in sin.
Quote Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Jhn 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Jhn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Jhn 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Jhn 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
Jhn 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.Quote Hbr 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Hbr 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Hbr 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Hbr 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Hbr 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance [belongeth] unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
Hbr 10:31 [It is] a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.I hope that this is clear. God said that Jesus is the propitiation for our sins, and you can either believe Him or not.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (Stu @ June 02 2009,18:31) Quote (942767 @ June 02 2009,09:49) Hi WhatisTrue: One other thought that I would share with you is that the scripture states that salvation is a gift from God. In other words, we did not earn it or we cannot buy it.
But we, as Christians are the Lord's disciples, suffer the same insults and persecutions that the Lord suffered as we learn to walk in obedience to God's Word for our sakes as well as for those who will be saved through the life that we live.
In other words, it isn't easy to be a Christian.
Love in Christ,
Marty
You poor thing. Not only is it difficult to believe absurdities but people tell you that you are absurd because you do.Saul of Tarsus was the master of the underdog card. Would you say that it is chiefly he who is responsible for the victimhood mentality of so many christians?
Stuart
Hi Stu:No need to be sorry for me.
The things that people like you do by calling me names and whatever else you do in trying to discourage me in my walk with the Lord is a necessary part in my learning to apply the Word of God in my life.
And no, it wasn't Paul, but Jesus who has warned us as his disciples that what they have done to him, they would also do to us because we are obeying him.
I am still praying for you.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ June 04 2009,12:05) Quote (Stu @ June 02 2009,18:31) Quote (942767 @ June 02 2009,09:49) Hi WhatisTrue: One other thought that I would share with you is that the scripture states that salvation is a gift from God. In other words, we did not earn it or we cannot buy it.
But we, as Christians are the Lord's disciples, suffer the same insults and persecutions that the Lord suffered as we learn to walk in obedience to God's Word for our sakes as well as for those who will be saved through the life that we live.
In other words, it isn't easy to be a Christian.
Love in Christ,
Marty
You poor thing. Not only is it difficult to believe absurdities but people tell you that you are absurd because you do.Saul of Tarsus was the master of the underdog card. Would you say that it is chiefly he who is responsible for the victimhood mentality of so many christians?
Stuart
Hi Stu:No need to be sorry for me.
The things that people like you do by calling me names and whatever else you do in trying to discourage me in my walk with the Lord is a necessary part in my learning to apply the Word of God in my life.
And no, it wasn't Paul, but Jesus who has warned us as his disciples that what they have done to him, they would also do to us because we are obeying him.
I am still praying for you.
Love in Christ,
Marty
“People like you”? People like what?Jesus said what?
Here are the words of the deluded politician Paul:
Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
Rom 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
2 Cor 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ
These verses are not attributed to Jesus. They are not the words of a person happy about you weighing up the pros and cons of believing silly things. They are exactly the same kinds of things that tinpot dictators say. Are you a resident of North Korea or a christian? It can be pretty hard to tell the difference sometimes.
Please do not pray for me. Your life is to precious to waste on ineffectual rituals.
Stuart
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 04 2009,10:46) Hi TK,
Did God not give specific instructions to Adam?
Hey Nick: The interesting thing is God actually warned Adam that if he accepted or partook of a belief,or certain information he would reap the consequences of that mistaken choice. Similar to later in the scriptures when God said, I lay before you life and death, so choose…! If God is Love as Jesus said he is, Love does not command anything. I believe that any time the Bible translators translated God as commanding anything is was always a suggestive choice. Sin still had not been created at that time, no Law no sin as we know it. Just for fun search the scriptures and replace the word sin with, “a mistake” or “wrong thoughts”. Like the wages of wrong thinking is death. Thanks, Bless you, TKHey Nick:If I make a rule for my child by saying, don't eat that,for if you eat that it will make you sick and the child goes ahead and eats and gets sick I sure don't punish him further. Also you can command a child anything but he still has choice to do or not to do. Sin must be constructed of either, do's and don'ts which are physical works/laws/rules or accept/reject thoughts of the mind, faith, which is spiritual works that connect or disconnect man and God. Mankind has had control of the Earth realm since God gave it to him.When I made Jesus Lord of my life and he revealed the True God as Love, it changed 90% of the old testament for me. Would peace, love and joy declare wars on other human beings. Would the God that is no respector of persons choose a bloodline of people? The only way to connect with God has always been by faith. Just believing. Those that believe by faith are the chosen people. All are called, few answer. Paul said a Jew is not a Jew that is one outwardly, but one inwardly by heart circumcision. Jesus was who God spoke of every time he referenced Israel,Jerusalem,my holy city. They are refering to Gods faithline people. I don't see Love as an agressive force. Love is, Love accepts, Love resisteth not. Yet if it is true God established a Law from the very beginning not to believe in evil. Later he said it again, I set before you, good and evil now you choose, but choose good that it may be well with all….Today is the same, you have choice to believe in sin, unrighteousness,evil et.al. or accept the good that Jesus brought forth. You can believe either one, and what you believe you recieve! Respectfully, TK
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