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Premise: Most Christians do not believe in or are silent on pre-existence of human souls. Souls come about at conception or sometime after this, but before actual birth. Then during it's life it is given an opportunity to know and believe in Jesus Christ as son of God, and based on this belief and perhaps a lesser extent, the acts of faith it performs because of this knowledge, then goes on upon it's death to be blessed with eternal life when its body is ressurected, or faces eternal damnation (or destruction based on your interpretation of scripture). Now there are various nuances on this with Catholics hedging their bets with purgatory and limbo and many evangelicals pushing for a tighter interpretation that we must be “born again” to achieve this salvation.
My reaction to this is that not only is it illogical, it denies the laws of the universe, is filled with basic inequalities, and makes little sense if the creator is a God of love.
First, it to me, violates law, laws that God created and set in motion. Nothing in the universe goes from infinite to finite or from finite to infinite. How then can one finite existence then lead to an infinite, eternal, reward or punishment?
Second, if the stakes are so incredibly high for our one life, then God certainly loves some of us much more then others. One is born to loving Christian parents who teach them, love and nurture them, and surround them with others who believe likewise and encourage and help them stay on path. Another is born in a devout Muslim family and lives the same, but for his faith. Another is born unto a child soldier in Africa, is taught to kill from an early age and in turn is killed as a young man. While all may have an opportunity for salvation, don't try and tell me the chances are the same. Why would the odds be so stacked against some. If we are all loved and we all have just one life then it is clearly unfair.
Third, if a loving God created us and loved us would he throw us into a life that in essence becomes a test that ultimately condemns the vast majority of souls? Knowing that God is omniscient would he create a system that would lead to this? I feel that God blessed us with the capacity to be parents so we could understand at some basic level what God feels about us. Can any of us who are parents comtemplate eternally destroying or damning our own children. Punish them when unruly sure, but to punish or destroy them eternally, I don't think so. If that is human love just think how much greater is divine love.
Why would God create us in the first place? To set up a litmus test of faith to separate good and bad, weak and strong? Or perhaps he wanted children he could see grow and mature and learn to love him and each other, knowing that these children are individuals with varying strengths and weaknesses who will mature at different rates. Do we hold a 5 year old to the same standards as an older child or an adult? I can't help but think that an omnipotent loving God who would bother creating mankind would have a better system for dispensing of our souls then what most of us were taught in common Christian theology.
I don't believe that God is a respecter of people. He chooses who He wants. But many are called, but few are chosen. That does not mean that all are lost, either. We all will have a chance in the Millenium when only the truth is going to be taught by Christ and His elect. Then Satan is going to be loosed and all will be tested, those that fail are destroyed, and those that obey will have eternal life. It is our choice.
With being born again we do have God's Holy Spirit and we all do grow in different stages, I belief.
I was born into the Catholic Church until my Husband and I were 45 and 46 when God called us out of that system. And for the first time started to read the word of God and were born again. So each of us can tell a different story I am sure.Peace and Love Mrs.
Hi cato,
One option is to design a god based on our view of how such a good god would behave and develop a theology from that using as much of scripture that is appropriate in our view. Many take this line.But it is better to know God exists and has revealed Himself in scripture and to seek to obey Him and leave all the unanswered questions till later as they are His problems and not ours. This is wiser.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 12 2008,04:27) Hi cato,
One option is to design a god based on our view of how such a good god would behave and develop a theology from that using as much of scripture that is appropriate in our view. Many take this line.But it is better to know God exists and has revealed Himself in scripture and to seek to obey Him and leave all the unanswered questions till later as they are His problems and not ours. This is wiser.
While I do not argue the existance of God, I see him revealed in nature and the universe around us, not in a particular dogma's scripture. For as I have stated elsewhere such scripture is suspect for a variety of reasons. One should not justify all the decisions in life and beyond life, based on what others have wrote, especially when it conflicts with reason, intuition, and conscience, all of which are God's gifts to men. This is not to say I discount all scripture but that I doubt it is the unadalturated word of God. When eternity is potentially at stake then I think blind obediance to what we may only think is God's will and asking questions later is a fool's march. If God ever wrote scripture with his own hand it is in the laws of the universe and that for one tells me finite means do not lead to infinite ends. With such sublime beauty, grace and order marking creation, I can not conceive the architect of same creating such a chaotic way of dispensing salvation and damnation.Hi cato,
You say
“Premise: Most Christians do not believe in or are silent on pre-existence of human souls. Souls come about at conception or sometime after this, but before actual birth. “Scripture does not say God is ever busy creating new souls to be placed in bodies.
What it does say is:Gen 2
7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.and
Gen 1
27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.28And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
God created Adam and then Eve from Adam as body, soul and spirit, and gave them the role of passing on those gifts. Adam is truly our human father and through him we have been given all aspects of our integrated being.
Quote (Cato @ Feb. 12 2008,06:02) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 12 2008,04:27) Hi cato,
One option is to design a god based on our view of how such a good god would behave and develop a theology from that using as much of scripture that is appropriate in our view. Many take this line.But it is better to know God exists and has revealed Himself in scripture and to seek to obey Him and leave all the unanswered questions till later as they are His problems and not ours. This is wiser.
While I do not argue the existance of God, I see him revealed in nature and the universe around us, not in a particular dogma's scripture. For as I have stated elsewhere such scripture is suspect for a variety of reasons. One should not justify all the decisions in life and beyond life, based on what others have wrote, especially when it conflicts with reason, intuition, and conscience, all of which are God's gifts to men. This is not to say I discount all scripture but that I doubt it is the unadalturated word of God. When eternity is potentially at stake then I think blind obediance to what we may only think is God's will and asking questions later is a fool's march. If God ever wrote scripture with his own hand it is in the laws of the universe and that for one tells me finite means do not lead to infinite ends. With such sublime beauty, grace and order marking creation, I can not conceive the architect of same creating such a chaotic way of dispensing salvation and damnation.
Hi cato,
God certainly shows His nature through His creation.
But knowing of God does not improve our relationship with Him.Scripture reveals that we all have a problem in that relationship and like it or not we are born under the wrath of God [Jn3].We all need to make certain decisions to change our destiny.
So rational philosophy about God is useless faced with the demand from that God brought by His son Jesus that we must repent and be born again of water and the Spirit.
Hi cato,
You ask
“Why would God create us in the first place? “
I think God wanted to shame the rebellious angels who brought evil into heaven and earth.
We are given the opportunity to be a part of this cleansing process, which is quite a battle but one in which the winning side is already known.
Then even on earth devil won the first round getting Adam to worship and obey him instead of God but Christ has already won the vital second battle and the rest is history before it happens.
Join the army of the Lord Jesus.Cato my first question for you is how do you define 'soul'? We must be able to agree on what it is before it can be discussed. More importantly, the religious ignoramuses who interfere with the presidential ethical committee in the US (including the president himself) influence potentially life-or-death decisions on the strength of their view on this question. What is a soul?
I despair at the responses to your post. I have heard better lines in B-grade horror movies. As for the celebration of ignorance that goes “So your conscience, reason, intelligence and intuition
are greater than scriptural wisdom?” or the “I think God wanted to shame the rebellious angels who brought evil into heaven and earth” argument for human existence, this should all be referred to the “why I am not a christian” thread. What a brutally miserable and dark age view of humanity.Stuart
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 12 2008,16:52) Hi Stu,
Your philosphical musings do not seem to shed much light either and certainly offer no hope.
Hope is a defining quality of humanity, an expression of our abilities to plan and alter the future for our own good (individually or collectively). Hope does not belong solely to the religious.I would have thought that by telling someone who seeks light that his faculties are not up to it that you are hardly trying to shed any light yourself. I hope to encourage Cato's exploration of the ideas he raises. I don't have a book full of instant platitudes to reel off at him. Perhaps you see that as a weakness.
Stuart
Hi Stu,
No but I do not think you have anything of value to offer. Reason alone does not bridge the gap to faith. Faith does not have to satisfy reason or provide understanding. We cannot dialogue.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 12 2008,06:11) Hi cato,
So your conscience, reason, intelligence and intuition
are greater than scriptural wisdom?
No, but it helps me to recognize true wisdom, and to separate that from mythic fantasy or gross oversimplifications given to those who can not handle any more then such. Without such examination then we will all be bound to the faith of our fathers who say this is true because this book is holy and it is written. Remember there are a lot of Muslims in the world who are told the Koran is holy scripture and truth is based on what is written there. Faith has its role, but it comes to fore when reason reaches a dead end because of lack of data, ability to test or even grasp the concept, such as the existance of an afterlife, here we have faith or not, but until we reach that point reason tempered with conscience, etc., is our best guide.Quote (Stu @ Feb. 12 2008,16:49) Cato my first question for you is how do you define 'soul'? We must be able to agree on what it is before it can be discussed. More importantly, the religious ignoramuses who interfere with the presidential ethical committee in the US (including the president himself) influence potentially life-or-death decisions on the strength of their view on this question. What is a soul? I despair at the responses to your post. I have heard better lines in B-grade horror movies. As for the celebration of ignorance that goes “So your conscience, reason, intelligence and intuition
are greater than scriptural wisdom?” or the “I think God wanted to shame the rebellious angels who brought evil into heaven and earth” argument for human existence, this should all be referred to the “why I am not a christian” thread. What a brutally miserable and dark age view of humanity.Stuart
Stuart,For my part I would define the soul as that part of our individuality that can no longer be distilled or further refined. It is the core of the onion that cannot be further peeled away. In my view this is immortal and resides in a higher plane of being, taking on various vehicles as it descends from higher to lower or more material planes. No don't ask me to support this with fact for I can not, it is and remains hypothesis. The idea is that we are beings that exist on more then one plane of being with our physical bodies representing the souls vehicle at lowest most material level. Now how many levels I don't even hazzard a guess, though I take it there is more then just body and soul but intermediary forms such as an etheric body made out of what mystics would refer to as ectoplasm. These various bodies are nothing more then means for the soul to exist and operate at that level of being. This then is in conflict with Nick and others here that stress the resurrection of ones physical body as they feel their soul, spirit and body are totally integrated (note I will leave it to Nick to define his own views of spirit and soul). I believe however that the physical body is of little longterm importance for once the soul progresses it just leftover material.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 12 2008,13:24) Hi cato,
You ask
“Why would God create us in the first place? “
I think God wanted to shame the rebellious angels who brought evil into heaven and earth.
We are given the opportunity to be a part of this cleansing process, which is quite a battle but one in which the winning side is already known.
Then even on earth devil won the first round getting Adam to worship and obey him instead of God but Christ has already won the vital second battle and the rest is history before it happens.
Join the army of the Lord Jesus.
One, I really hate to think that the purpose of humanity is to shame rebellious angels. If so then according to your beliefs as most humans are evidently losing the battle for salvation (Christians are a minority and born agains even more so) then it seems to justify rebellion rather then rebuke it.Two, I agree we are given the opportunity to battle evil, both internal and external and I think most of us want to do good.
Three, if Adam is more then allegory for man, then Adam did disobey and was beguiled by Eve who was beguiled by the serpent. He paid the price, but I don't see it written anywhere that he ever actively worshiped the devil.
Four, just because I have differing views on how the universe actually runs and I mistrust literal interpretations of scripture for reasons I have stated elsewhere, what makes you think that I am not part of Christ's army? I have had my own revelations and transformations but they did not lead me to shut off my mind in the process. I have seen true miracles in my lifetime and my faith in the divine and Christ firm, yet that doesn't mean I swallow all the pablum from Sunday school either.
Quote (Cato @ Feb. 13 2008,01:53) Quote (Stu @ Feb. 12 2008,16:49) Cato my first question for you is how do you define 'soul'? We must be able to agree on what it is before it can be discussed. More importantly, the religious ignoramuses who interfere with the presidential ethical committee in the US (including the president himself) influence potentially life-or-death decisions on the strength of their view on this question. What is a soul? I despair at the responses to your post. I have heard better lines in B-grade horror movies. As for the celebration of ignorance that goes “So your conscience, reason, intelligence and intuition
are greater than scriptural wisdom?” or the “I think God wanted to shame the rebellious angels who brought evil into heaven and earth” argument for human existence, this should all be referred to the “why I am not a christian” thread. What a brutally miserable and dark age view of humanity.Stuart
Stuart,For my part I would define the soul as that part of our individuality that can no longer be distilled or further refined. It is the core of the onion that cannot be further peeled away. In my view this is immortal and resides in a higher plane of being, taking on various vehicles as it descends from higher to lower or more material planes. No don't ask me to support this with fact for I can not, it is and remains hypothesis. The idea is that we are beings that exist on more then one plane of being with our physical bodies representing the souls vehicle at lowest most material level. Now how many levels I don't even hazzard a guess, though I take it there is more then just body and soul but intermediary forms such as an etheric body made out of what mystics would refer to as ectoplasm. These various bodies are nothing more then means for the soul to exist and operate at that level of being. This then is in conflict with Nick and others here that stress the resurrection of ones physical body as they feel their soul, spirit and body are totally integrated (note I will leave it to Nick to define his own views of spirit and soul). I believe however that the physical body is of little longterm importance for once the soul progresses it just leftover material.
Hi cato,
You misunderstand.
Earth or sheol consumes the old body. Those in Christ who are raptured have a new imperishable body put over the old. Those in Christ who are resurrected are found, not in their old perishable body, but a new imperishable heavenly body alike to the angels.1Cor 15
42So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:43It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Thess4
14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Hi cato,
Mt25
“Matthew 25:41
“Then He will also say to those on His left, ' Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;”It was not prepared initially for men.
Christ identified Satan as the father of the Jewish leaders, usurping the role of God.
Jn8
41Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.42Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
43Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 12 2008,16:52) Why would the odds be so stacked against some.
What if we take God out of the equation and ask the same question?Quote (Cato @ Feb. 13 2008,01:53) Quote (Stu @ Feb. 12 2008,16:49) Cato my first question for you is how do you define 'soul'? We must be able to agree on what it is before it can be discussed. More importantly, the religious ignoramuses who interfere with the presidential ethical committee in the US (including the president himself) influence potentially life-or-death decisions on the strength of their view on this question. What is a soul? I despair at the responses to your post. I have heard better lines in B-grade horror movies. As for the celebration of ignorance that goes “So your conscience, reason, intelligence and intuition
are greater than scriptural wisdom?” or the “I think God wanted to shame the rebellious angels who brought evil into heaven and earth” argument for human existence, this should all be referred to the “why I am not a christian” thread. What a brutally miserable and dark age view of humanity.Stuart
Stuart,For my part I would define the soul as that part of our individuality that can no longer be distilled or further refined. It is the core of the onion that cannot be further peeled away. In my view this is immortal and resides in a higher plane of being, taking on various vehicles as it descends from higher to lower or more material planes. No don't ask me to support this with fact for I can not, it is and remains hypothesis. The idea is that we are beings that exist on more then one plane of being with our physical bodies representing the souls vehicle at lowest most material level. Now how many levels I don't even hazzard a guess, though I take it there is more then just body and soul but intermediary forms such as an etheric body made out of what mystics would refer to as ectoplasm. These various bodies are nothing more then means for the soul to exist and operate at that level of being. This then is in conflict with Nick and others here that stress the resurrection of ones physical body as they feel their soul, spirit and body are totally integrated (note I will leave it to Nick to define his own views of spirit and soul). I believe however that the physical body is of little longterm importance for once the soul progresses it just leftover material.
Hi cato,
Whence do you derive these gnostic thoughts?Quote (Cato @ Feb. 12 2008,23:46) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 12 2008,06:11) Hi cato,
So your conscience, reason, intelligence and intuition
are greater than scriptural wisdom?
No, but it helps me to recognize true wisdom, and to separate that from mythic fantasy or gross oversimplifications given to those who can not handle any more then such. Without such examination then we will all be bound to the faith of our fathers who say this is true because this book is holy and it is written. Remember there are a lot of Muslims in the world who are told the Koran is holy scripture and truth is based on what is written there. Faith has its role, but it comes to fore when reason reaches a dead end because of lack of data, ability to test or even grasp the concept, such as the existance of an afterlife, here we have faith or not, but until we reach that point reason tempered with conscience, etc., is our best guide.
Hi cato,
Scripture is the only reliable guide to christian faith.
Others prefer to follow paths of their own design but they lead to a ditch.
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