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Nick said:
Quote Hi TT,
You say
“I answered this already. The apostles did not seek out the Gentiles. But they spoke to them if called upon. Jesus told them to “Go NOT in the way of the Gentiles” (Matt. 10:5).”
This was an instruction given to his disciples while he was with them and fulfilling his own mission.When he left he gave them new instructions.
Mt 28
19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, ………..
20Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
Nick,
The term “all nations” has reference to the nations of Israel. Do you not remember that God promised Jacob that many “nations” would come from his body?
Christ did NOT give His disciples “new” instructions. When Paul wrote the book of Romans he said, “to the Jew FIRST, and also to the Gentile” (Rom. 1:17).If a cruise ship is sinking and the captain orders his crew to gather the women and children into the lifeboats first he will not afterwards give “new” orders. He will not change his mind. The captain will expect that his mandate be fulfilled. And if his crew is seeking out all the women and children and they should happen to come across children that have only their father as their guardian, then they will certainly allow that man to gather into the lifeboats with the women and children.
But they will not seek out men and gather them with the women and children. They will obey their captain's orders and gather the women and children first. Afterwards they will gather men into the lifeboats.
Paul's statement “to the Jew first clearly indicates that the captain's orders had not been changed for Paul said this quite a while after Christ's initial command. Christ's orders were not changed Nick.
Likewise, the apostles came across some Gentiles in their journeys but they did not seek them out.
Paul said “to the Jew first” long after Christ's command. So what is your evidence for saying that Christ gave “new” instructions?
thinker
Hi TT,
You say
“The term “all nations” has reference to the nations of Israel. Do you not remember that God promised Jacob that many “nations” would come from his body? “
Does MANY mean ALL to you?So TT,
Since the Law never applied to gentiles [Rom2-2] and now you say the gentiles were never to be grafted into the olive tree of Israel how or hear the saving message of Jesus do you expect to be saved?Acts 4:12
“And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.”Hi TT,
All in order and God's timing.
We should not imagine he is as rigid as men
Now the Jews had their chance He does offer forgiveness even to gentiles.
Acts 1344And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.
45But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.
46Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
47For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.
48And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
Acts28
25And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,26Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
27For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
28Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.
Hi TT,
Mt10
1And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.2Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother;
3Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus;
4Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.
5These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
8Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
This mission was not the work of the body of Christ as that had not been formed of men. It was the lending of the powers of Christ to some chosen men for a time done in the authority given to Jesus.
It was not the great commission later given that sent his body to all men.
To take some permanent restriction from this is not sensible.
Nick said:
Quote Since the Law never applied to gentiles [Rom2-2] and now you say the gentiles were never to be grafted into the olive tree of Israel how or hear the saving message of Jesus do you expect to be saved?
Nick,
Where did I say that the gentiles were never to be heirs of salvation? I have repeatedly said the Jew “first”. Then the gentiles could be gathered in. Maybe it would help you understand by telling you that I believe that the apostles fulfilled their mission to the Jews of that generation. What I am basically saying is that the preaching of the gospel to the gentiles was post-apostolic.Quote 46,Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
The word “ethnos” here should have been translated “nations”. Paul was saying that he was going to go to the nations of the Jews. The context is very clear for they went only into the synagogue of the Jews after that,“…they went together into the synagogue of the Jews, and so spoke that a great multitude of both Jews and Hellenists believed. But the unbelieving Jews stirred up the nations and poisoned their minds against the brethren” (14:1-2).
So the term “nations” is NOT a reference to gentiles but is rather a reference to Jews. The distinction between Jew and nation in this context is one of class and not a racial distinction. In other words, Paul never went to the teachers and lawyers of the Jews after he judged them unworthy of eternal life. He went to the common Jews, or nations who went into the synagogue to hear the law of Moses taught to them.
Follow the Acts narrative from Acts 13:46 to the time Paul was imprisoned. He went only into the synagogue to reason with Jews, that is, the common class of the Jews also called “the nations”.
Quote It was not the great commission later given that sent his body to all men. To take some permanent restriction from this is not sensible.
The great commission from Jesus NEVER included the gentiles. The promise of salvation was not extended to the gentiles until Paul received word from Christ by direct revelation. And I never said anything about the mandate to Israel alone being “permanent”. I said that the apostles had to gather in the Jews FIRST. Then the gentiles could be gathered in. Do you remember my sinking ship illustration?I find that a lot of people have a real hard time with the idea that Christ would order the salvation of His own flesh and blood first. They ought to just accept it.
thinker
Hi TT,
The apostles did preach to the gentiles so they were not sanctioned against doing so and apostles exist today so no such age has ended.1Cor12
27Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.28And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
29Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
30Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
Paul always sought first an opportunity to speak with the Jews because they remain the first to offered salvation but then he included gentiles as God gave opportunity. You have also not proved that the nations is another name for Jews and will struggle to do so.
Cornelius was neither a jew nor a proselyte and Peter learned the plan of God but you cannot agree with him?
Acts 17:26
And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;Galatians 3:8
And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations[1484] be blessed.Number 1484
Transliteration:
ethnos {eth'-nos}
Word Origin:
probably from 1486
TDNT:
2:364,201
Part of Speech:
noun neuter
Usage in the KJV:
Gentiles 93, nation 64, heathen 5, people 2Total: 164
Acts 10
Acts 10:35
But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.Nick said:
Quote The apostles did preach to the gentiles so they were not sanctioned against doing so and apostles exist today so no such age has ended.
The apostles were indeed sanctioned from going to the gentiles on their own initiative. Paul said “to the Jew FIRST”. I did not make this up.Quote Paul always sought first an opportunity to speak with the Jews because they remain the first to offered salvation but then he included gentiles as God gave opportunity.
If you review my posts again you will see that I have said this all along.Quote You have also not proved that the nations is another name for Jews and will struggle to do so.
God promised Jacob that a company of nations shall come out of his body (Genesis 35:11). The term “nations” therefore may also have reference to physical Israelites.Quote Cornelius was neither a jew nor a proselyte and Peter learned the plan of God but you cannot agree with him?
Cornelius was indeed a proselyte. And Peter said that the pouring out of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost was for the house of Israel (Acts 2). In Exodus 4:22 God said:“Israel is My firstborn“.
The firstborn son had the priority. That had not changed in Jesus' and Paul's time. Jesus said “Go only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel” and Paul said “to the Jew FIRST”.
That God would include any sinners beyond His own chosen is amazing in and of itself. Yet we complain about the order of it? Are you thinking that God doesn't love you as much or something?
thinker
Hi TT,
And he went to the Jews first but took every other opportunity God offered as well.
Nations include Israel but also gentiles and the heathenNick said:
Quote And he went to the Jews first but took every other opportunity God offered as well.
Nations include Israel but also gentiles and the heathen
That's what I have been saying. They went to the Jew first and took “opportunity” to offer salvation to others as those opportunities came to them. But they did not go to the gentiles on their own initiative. They kept their Lord's word.thinker
There seems to be an infinite amount of views about how salvation is obtained.
Please, anyone that will respond, please state in your opinion:-1. What is absolutely required to be saved. Name all you think is required, that leaving any out will disqualify you.
2. What is desirable, but not actually neccesary for salvation. Name as many as you please.
3. What deeds and/or beliefs will definately exclude you from salvation.
I think that this will be interesting, as there seem to be so many different opinions of what the requirements for salvation are.
There doesn't seem to be very much interest in this subject, there seems to be so many that argue about such matters, but fail to explain just what is required for salvation.
Anyone?
Anyone? There is so much disagreement on almost any subject posted on this forum, yet few will respond when asked… what is their opinion of “what is required for salvation”.
I'll repost.
1. What is absolutely required to be saved. Name all you think is required, that leaving any out will disqualify you.
2. What is desirable, but not actually neccesary for salvation. Name as many as you please.
3. What deeds and/or beliefs will definately exclude you from salvation.
Anyone volunteer an opinion?
Quote (chosenone @ June 05 2010,17:07) Any sensable answers?
COyou question are directional,
to have your live saved by God;you need faith in Christ but what does mean or encompasses ?
that would be a better question,
also
can you separate;God from his creation? can you separate Christ from his father ? can you separate the righteous from there master Christ?
could you separate the deeds that men do for there God ?
can you separate the word of God from the spirit of the righteous??were do you stand CO
Pierre
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