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Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 22 2009,21:13) Quote 17Therefore disputed he in the synagogue with the Jews, and with the devout persons, and in the market daily with them that met with him.
Nick,
Note that the verse you provided from Acts 17:17 says nothing about going to the Gentiles. It says explicitly that Paul went into the synagogue and disputed “with the Jews”.The Acts 16 passage you provided provides no evidence whatsoever that the Philippian jailer was a was a Gentile. And even if he was I have said that the apostles did not intentionally go to Gentiles. Paul was in prison and the jailer inquired about salvation of Paul. Paul did not speak to the jailer first about salvation. Jesus commanded His disciples to go only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. If they had sought out the gentiles on their own they would have disobeyed their Lord. Paul said to the jew first. Therefore, they could not go to Gentiles until they completed their mission to the Jews. And by that time Paul had received new revelations that the gospel was faith alone.
The narrative in Acts 2 clearly indicates that Peter was addressing the men of Israel (vs. 22).
Thinker said:
Quote We know for sure that two of the foundational princiles do not apply today, namely repentance and baptsim. Nick replied:
Quote Do we? Who told you? By whose authority? Nick ,
I have already shown you from Hebrews 6 the consequences to Jews that would go back to the “elementary principles” of Christ. It says that this would amount to apostasy and that it would be impossible to renew them again to repentance. It says that they would be crucifying the Son of God again and putting Him to an open shame. The consequences that going back to the elementary principles brings necessarily infers that those principles are not applicable now. Baptism and repentance are among those elementary principles.The Gospel has changed and is based on Paul's faith alone principle now. There is no works required today. The Gospel goes out to all men today.
thinker
Hi TT,
True he first disputed with the Jews? How does that relate?True it does not say the Jailor was a gentile. It also does not say he was Jewish.
Do you think Jesus is not in control of his body?
Is God not able to direct the steps of His children?
Your view of Heb 6 is strange. The author is surely wanting to move on from teaching basics and not proclaiming some horror scenario. But he did warn them of the consequences of treating their gift of salvation with disdain.
Heb6
4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Grace given and refused is not given again.
Nick said:
Quote True he first disputed with the Jews? How does that relate?
I answered this already. The apostles did not seek out the Gentiles. But they spoke to them if called upon. Jesus told them to “Go NOT in the way of the Gentiles” (Matt. 10:5).Quote True it does not say the Jailor was a gentile. It also does not say he was Jewish.
Exactly!Quote Your view of Heb 6 is strange. The author is surely wanting to move on from teaching basics and not proclaiming some horror scenario. But he did warn them of the consequences of treating their gift of salvation with disdain.
You are not the first person to tell me that my view of Hebrews 6 is “strange” or “foreign” or whatever…. But it is consistent. The author was NOT proclaiming some “horror scenario”. He said that those who go back to the “elementary doctrines” of Christ “crucify for themselves again the Son of God afresh”. Then the author goes on in chapters 7-10 to demonstrate that Jesus Christ was crucified once for all and is to be believed in that way. Is it really “strange” of me to insist that Christ was crucified “once for all” and that men should rest in that fact?Quote Grace given and refused is not given again.
You're missing the point. Repentance as the requirement for salvation has been abolished. Therefore, those who would draw back to it cannot be renewed by it. It does not mean that they cannot be renewed by faith.Quote For without faith it is impossible to please God Note that it says that without “faith” it is impossible to please God.
thinker
Hi TT,
Did God say NEVER go to the gentiles?
Did Peter not go to Cornelius on God's instruction?Those forgiven by God should only need their feet washed.
Jn13
10Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.They cannot again repent unto salvation.
Nick posted:
Quote Did God say NEVER go to the gentiles?
Did Peter not go to Cornelius on God's instruction?They never went to Gentiles on their own. They obeyed their Lord. And Cornelius was a proselyte, regarded the same as a Jew.
Quote Those forgiven by God should only need their feet washed.
I don't follow. Please explain.Quote They cannot again repent unto salvation.
But they can be renewed by faith. God will not turn away the person that rests in Jesus alone no matter what his prior mistakes and historical baggage.thinker
Hi TT,
Rom6
3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
So in repentance and baptism, which are as relevant now as in the day of Peter and Paul, we are crucified with Christ and ought to receive the Spirit of Christ unto resurrection and salvation.
Christ lives in us, the hope of glory.That being the case then if we were to seek to go through that process again Christ in us would be crucified again and that is why Heb 6 speaks against trying to do so.
Heb 6
4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 23 2009,06:19) Nick posted: Quote Did God say NEVER go to the gentiles?
Did Peter not go to Cornelius on God's instruction?They never went to Gentiles on their own. They obeyed their Lord. And Cornelius was a proselyte, regarded the same as a Jew.
Quote Those forgiven by God should only need their feet washed.
I don't follow. Please explain.Quote They cannot again repent unto salvation.
But they can be renewed by faith. God will not turn away the person that rests in Jesus alone no matter what his prior mistakes and historical baggage.thinker
Hi TT,
You claim Cornelius was a proselyte.
By which evidence?
Acts 10
1There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,2A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.
Hi TT,
God's plan was to give first right of refusal of His gospel to the chosen people.
But crumbs were allowed to fall even from Jesus for the “dogs” to feed on.
Then the plan was shown to be enlarged to include an invitation to all.
Wild branches grafted onto the native olive tree of Israel.
Servants educated at each step of the plan.Hi Thinker,
Welcome to heaven.net.
What you are saying makes sense to me …… I have come across the idea that baptism is a ritual that has no place in the freedom of Christ ………
Acts 2:38:40 Says that Peter exhorted with repent and be baptised and save themselves from that untoward generation.
Jesus was proclaiming the gospel to the Jews and telling them to repent ……… the nation did not and in 70AD judgment was given …….
In Hebrews 9 It talks about the difference between the first earthly tabernacle and the spiritual and what it seems to say in verses 9-10 that the carnal ordinances of food, drinks, washings (baptism) was only applicable until the time of reformation (Christ) and the destruction of the first temple 70AD.
I think that 70AD was a major turning point.
Hi MK,
To be in Christ one has to seek first the kingdom.
To enter the kingdom we must come to the door of Jesus.
Entry into the kingdom is by repentance, rebirth of water and the Spirit.
We are clothed in Christ in baptism and we should not be found at the wedding feast improperly attiredQuote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 23 2009,08:36) Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 23 2009,06:19) Nick posted: Quote Did God say NEVER go to the gentiles?
Did Peter not go to Cornelius on God's instruction?They never went to Gentiles on their own. They obeyed their Lord. And Cornelius was a proselyte, regarded the same as a Jew.
Quote Those forgiven by God should only need their feet washed.
I don't follow. Please explain.Quote They cannot again repent unto salvation.
But they can be renewed by faith. God will not turn away the person that rests in Jesus alone no matter what his prior mistakes and historical baggage.thinker
Hi TT,
You claim Cornelius was a proselyte.
By which evidence?
Acts 10
1There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,2A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.
Nick,Cornelius, before he spoke to Peter was of “good report of all the nation of the Jews” and he feared God and was devout …….. he certainly seemed to have some instruction in Jewishness and was not just a gentile without a connection to Judaism.
Hi MK,
6Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God.7But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:
8The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
9Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
10Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
11But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
12Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
13For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
So Jesus is the high priest and also the perfect sacrifice.
No rituals or ordinances are necessary for him.He has torn the temple curtain of his flesh to open a new way
We need to blood of the saviour to be applied to us.Hebrews 9:9-10
verse 1 ->Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.
verse 9: Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
verse 10: Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
divers washings (baptism) and carnal ordinances was imposed until the time of reformation.
Hi MK,
Indeed the OT had many such washings.
But since John the baptist all is changed.We should follow the one who submitted to the baptism of John.
Baptism is for the forgiveness of sins [acts2]and all have sinned[rom3].
Nick,
I asked you if you believe it is “strange” of me to insist that Christ was crucified “once for all” and that He should be believed upon in this way. Please reply specifically to my question.thanks,
thinkerQuote (meerkat @ Jan. 23 2009,07:23) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 23 2009,08:36) Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 23 2009,06:19) Nick posted: Quote Did God say NEVER go to the gentiles?
Did Peter not go to Cornelius on God's instruction?They never went to Gentiles on their own. They obeyed their Lord. And Cornelius was a proselyte, regarded the same as a Jew.
Quote Those forgiven by God should only need their feet washed.
I don't follow. Please explain.Quote They cannot again repent unto salvation.
But they can be renewed by faith. God will not turn away the person that rests in Jesus alone no matter what his prior mistakes and historical baggage.thinker
Hi TT,
You claim Cornelius was a proselyte.
By which evidence?
Acts 10
1There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,2A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.
Nick,Cornelius, before he spoke to Peter was of “good report of all the nation of the Jews” and he feared God and was devout …….. he certainly seemed to have some instruction in Jewishness and was not just a gentile without a connection to Judaism.
Hi TT,
It is not written.
Should we add this speculation and teach from it?Meerkat said:
Quote What you are saying makes sense to me …… I have come across the idea that baptism is a ritual that has no place in the freedom of Christ ……… Meerkat,
I have finally found someone that gets it. The “repent and be baptized” gospel was for Israel initially. By that message God was laying the foundation for Paul's faith alone principle that includes all races of men.It's a relief to know that someone else gets it.
thinker
Hi TT,
You say
“Then the author goes on in chapters 7-10 to demonstrate that Jesus Christ was crucified once for all and is to be believed in that way. Is it really “strange” of me to insist that Christ was crucified “once for all” and that men should rest in that fact? ”Heb7
Hebrews 7:27
Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself.It is complete
Hebrews 5:9
and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey himNow men must obey him.
You must be born again.Hi TT,
You say
“Repentance as the requirement for salvation has been abolished”Pau disagrees.
Acts 17
30And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:31Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
Hi TT,
You say
“I answered this already. The apostles did not seek out the Gentiles. But they spoke to them if called upon. Jesus told them to “Go NOT in the way of the Gentiles” (Matt. 10:5).”This was an instruction given to his disciples while he was with them and fulfilling his own mission.
When he left he gave them new instructions.
Mt 28
19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, ………..
20Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
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