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September 19, 2010 at 10:29 pm#216841

Ed J

Participant

Quote (barley @ Sep. 20 2010,07:58)

Ed J,

Quote

Since JC was the offspring of David

does that not imply that

1. David preexisted Jesus Christ?

2. Jesse who was David's father preexisted David by one generation?

3. Jesse preexisted Jesus Christ by two generations?

Maybe you can answer these questions?

barley

Hi Barley,

I gave you Jesus' complete lineage; but you choose to only focus on the flesh 25%?
You must not overlook the 50% lineage that Luke 20:41-44 specifies of the
Spirit of Christ existing in the the flesh of Jesus Christ! (1Pt.1:9-13)

Luke 20:41-44 And he said unto them, How say they that Christ is David's son?
And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The LORD said unto my Lord,
Sit thou on my right hand, Till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
David therefore calleth him Lord, how is he then his son?

Since you want to discuss Jesus' flesh on his mother's father's side; I will be very technical for you…

1. David lived all of his life before Jesus was born from Mary's womb.

2. Jesse was David's father and lived part of his life before David was born.

3. Jesse was Jesus great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, grandfather on his mother's father's side.

Any more questions? (Matt.7:7 / 2Tm.2:13)

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

September 19, 2010 at 11:51 pm#216849

Baker

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 19 2010,03:06)

When will you answer the scripture in question oatmeal?

barley:

Quote

As YOU present them, they seem indisputable.

Then why don't you CLEARLY present a scripture that changes the word “human being” in Phil 2:7 into something else? Is there some CLEAR scriptures that imply that “Branch” DOESN'T mean “came after” and “Root” DOESN'T mean “came before”?

barley:

Quote

When you learn to see those verses in their scriptural, not personal, context, you eyes will be able to see truths, that at this point, you cannot even imagine.

Where do you get off telling me and JA that we don't have scriptural truth? Who do you think YOU are? A prophet or something?

barley:

Quote

God knows that I will need another automobile within the next 20 years.

I think it is you who doesn't quite understand, my friend. I don't think God gives a care at all about your future car. The promise is not that you will always have a car. The promise is that even if the world crashes, and you stuck in the middle of a desert WITHOUT a car, you can count on God to provide food to eat and clothes to wear. Not a nice house, or any house at all for that matter. Not a car. Not a job. Not money. Just the bare necessities of what it will take for you to live.

If I lose my car, house, savings and everything else tomorrow, I will rest assured God will provide food and clothes for me……that's all the promise entails.

barley:

Quote

Anyone can prove that the Bible says, “There is no God” And anyone who says that is absolutely 100% correct. The Bible does say that, “There is no God”.

This kind of thing just wastes time and energy barley. Does it say, “A fool says Jesus is the Root of David”? Does it say, “A fool says that after Jesus was in the form of God, he WAS MADE IN THE LIKENESS OF A HUMAN BEING”?

Come on man, this is just silly. I'll tell you what I tell Gene: Either logically refute what the scripture says, or give up your WISH for Jesus to have been EXACTLY LIKE US.

mike

Mike! All I am doing on this tread is laughing….. To ignore all those Scriptures simple makes no sense. And then for Gene to put the trinity along side with the preexsisting is crazy. He did that we me too. Since I came out of the Catholic Church and taught all of our children their doctrines, I know that the RCChurch does not teach it…. I must say you have more patience then I have to keep it up with them…. I won't I am to old for that….Best Wishes Irene

September 19, 2010 at 11:54 pm#216850

Baker

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 20 2010,09:29)

Quote (barley @ Sep. 20 2010,07:58)

Ed J,

Quote

Since JC was the offspring of David

does that not imply that

1. David preexisted Jesus Christ?

2. Jesse who was David's father preexisted David by one generation?

3. Jesse preexisted Jesus Christ by two generations?

Maybe you can answer these questions?

barley

Hi Barley,

Since you want to discuss Jesus' flesh on his mother's father's side; I will be very technical for you…

1. David lived all of his life before Jesus was born from Mary's womb.

2. Jesse was David's father and lived part of his life before David was born.

Any more questions? (Matt.7:7 / 2Tm.2:13)

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

great

September 20, 2010 at 1:48 am#216870

mikeboll64

Blocked

Quote (barley @ Sep. 19 2010,23:26)

Genesis 3:15, Jesus Christ was foretold. David was not. Jesse was not. Jesus Christ is the central figure of our salvation, not David. David knew this, even before JC existed. David believed in a future (to him) savior that was foretold of long before David existed. Yet David was told that the savior would be one of his offspring. It is so simple. Why don't you see it? See Gene's posts, you are too focused on one thought to incorporate the totality of scripture into your thinking.

Hi barley,

What part of this post, or any of the scriptures you post for that matter, either directly say or clearly imply that Jesus DIDN'T pre-exist?

You guys keep deliberately misinterpreting the scriptures I give that I think say he DID pre-exist, but you've shown none that eliminate the possibility that he did.

If I change the word “existed” that I bolded in your post to “came in the flesh”, I agree with everything you wrote.

Where is the scripture that says Jesus did NOT pre-exist here? Where is the scripture or logic that refutes my understanding that “Branch” means “came after” so “Root” therefore must mean “came before”?

mike

September 20, 2010 at 1:51 am#216871

mikeboll64

Blocked

Quote (barley @ Sep. 20 2010,00:20)

MB,

Since JC was the offspring of David

does that not imply that

1. David preexisted Jesus Christ?

2. Jesse who was David's father preexisted David by one generation?

3. Jesse preexisted Jesus Christ by two generations?

Hi barley,

1. Yes

2. Yes

3. Well, not 2 generations, but Yes that Jesse pre-existed Jesus' coming in the flesh.

So if “offspring” of David means that, then tell me what “the Root” of David means. Jesus says he is both the Root AND the offspring of David.

mike

September 20, 2010 at 1:58 am#216874

mikeboll64

Blocked

Quote (barley @ Sep. 20 2010,00:20)

I am sure you have some. But as Gene clearly pointed out and I concur, your focus is too narrow. You only see what you want to see. You see only one branch in a forest full of trees.

And that's exactly what I think about you guys. “You're wrong and I'm right” is not going to get us anywhere.

Scripture, scripture, scripture, barley.

Show me ONE, and only ONE scripture that YOU think directly says or clearly implies that Jesus did NOT pre-exist.

mike

September 20, 2010 at 2:02 am#216876

mikeboll64

Blocked

Quote (barley @ Sep. 20 2010,00:20)

You have not been taught the simplest of truths about God's loving care for us. Well now you have some of these basics.

I would advise you to learn about God's wondrous care for you before you venture out into subjects you have not yet been instructed in.

barley

Isn't that a little cocky and arrogant of you? Who are YOU to instruct me when you are a blind guide? I don't enjoy falling into pits.

Take the rafter out of your eye barley, then you might be of some help to me in removing the splinter from mine.

mike

September 20, 2010 at 2:19 am#216878

mikeboll64

Blocked

Quote (barley @ Sep. 20 2010,00:47)

Mikeboll,

The scriptures say that God killed Uzziah, but that is a Hebrew idiom. A figure of speech. It is the idiom of permission. God permitted it to happen. It is the devil who has the power of death.

So the angel that slaughtered 185,000 Assyrians was one of Satan's demons, not an angel that God sent?

The angel that would have killed Balaam of Peor had the donkey not seen him and stopped was one of Satan's angels?

Who was it that DESTROYED Sodom and Gomorrah, barley? Who sent fire and brimstone from heaven? Satan?

Are you sure about this? Or are you just one of those people like Tim Kraft who like to imagine that the “eye for an eye” and “vengeance is mine” God of the OT doesn't really paint an accurate picture of the “nicer” God of the NT, and should therefore be discounted?

God has and will again destroy those who don't follow His commands. But this is off topic right now. I only mentioned Uzzah because it doesn't make human sense that someone lost his life just for trying to help out in the service of God. Therefore, it doesn't have to make sense to you non-preexisters that God sent his pre-existent Son as the one through whom He would save us.

mike

September 20, 2010 at 2:20 am#216879

mikeboll64

Blocked

Quote (Baker @ Sep. 20 2010,10:51)

See what you started, Irene?

peace and love,
mike

September 20, 2010 at 10:54 am#216915

barley

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 20 2010,09:29)

Quote (barley @ Sep. 20 2010,07:58)

Ed J,

Quote

Since JC was the offspring of David

does that not imply that

1. David preexisted Jesus Christ?

2. Jesse who was David's father preexisted David by one generation?

3. Jesse preexisted Jesus Christ by two generations?

Maybe you can answer these questions?

barley

Hi Barley,

Since you want to discuss Jesus' flesh on his mother's father's side; I will be very technical for you…

1. David lived all of his life before Jesus was born from Mary's womb.

2. Jesse was David's father and lived part of his life before David was born.

Any more questions? (Matt.7:7 / 2Tm.2:13)

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Mikeboll,

But mikey, mikey, I want to play your game by your rules. I want to focus on one portion of scripture and laud it to the skies and ignore everything else.

Since Jesus is the son of David.

David preexisted Jesus Christ.

So if Jesus Christ preexisted before he was born and David preexisted Jesus Christ.

David has been around longer than your preexisting Jesus.

That makes David older than Jesus Christ.

Since Jesus Christ was the son of David. Then David had to be his father.

David must have been very old when he impregnated Mary.

Hey, I am playing by your rules.

Hey, you don't like this.

But, I am playing by your rules.

I've caught on to your game and I am winning.

Now you don't like it.

You think I am the crazy one?

I've have simply done what you do.

And you have no retort, because I will keep harping on the fact that scriptures say the Jesus Christ is the son of David.
And that since Mary is JC's mother, David and Mary must have had sex in order for JC to be both the son of David and of Mary.

That is how your so-called “Biblical insight and logic” sounds to me.

And to Gene and to Martian and others, I am sure.

barley

September 20, 2010 at 12:29 pm#216920

Ed J

Participant

Quote (barley @ Sep. 20 2010,21:54)

Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 20 2010,09:29)

Quote (barley @ Sep. 20 2010,07:58)

Ed J,

Quote

Since JC was the offspring of David

does that not imply that

1. David preexisted Jesus Christ?

2. Jesse who was David's father preexisted David by one generation?

3. Jesse preexisted Jesus Christ by two generations?

Maybe you can answer these questions?

barley

Hi Barley,

Since you want to discuss Jesus' flesh on his mother's father's side; I will be very technical for you…

1. David lived all of his life before Jesus was born from Mary's womb.

2. Jesse was David's father and lived part of his life before David was born.

Any more questions? (Matt.7:7 / 2Tm.2:13)

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Mikeboll,

But mikey, mikey, I want to play your game by your rules. I want to focus on one portion of scripture and laud it to the skies and ignore everything else.

Since Jesus is the son of David.

David preexisted Jesus Christ.

So if Jesus Christ preexisted before he was born and David preexisted Jesus Christ.

David has been around longer than your preexisting Jesus.

That makes David older than Jesus Christ.

Since Jesus Christ was the son of David. Then David had to be his father.

David must have been very old when he impregnated Mary.

Hey, I am playing by your rules.

Hey, you don't like this.

But, I am playing by your rules.

I've caught on to your game and I am winning.

Now you don't like it.

You think I am the crazy one?

I've have simply done what you do.

That is how your so-called “Biblical insight and logic” sounds to me.

And to Gene and to Martian and others, I am sure.

barley

Hi Barley,

Your one-sided circular logic has holes in it, because
you are comparing (in essence) apples to oranges.
One is Spirit(Christ) and the other is flesh(Jesus).

By applying you're logic to a different occasion,
‘you’ might also consider Jesus had no purpose
here based entirely on John 3 verse number 63.

John 3:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing:
the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

When considering what YHVH had intended in the Scriptures, ‘you’ shouldn't try to pit one verse above
another to try to substantiate your pre-conceived ideas of truth (as in no Preexistence according to Barley).

What do ‘you’ consider “my rules” to be? I consider them to understand the bible as a whole! (Click Here)

50% by “HolySpirit”…
Matt.1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused
to Joseph, before they came (consummated) together, she was found with child of the HolySpirit.
Matt.1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto
him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife:
for that which is conceived in her is of the HolySpirit. (Son of the HolySpirit = Son of God)
Luke 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The HolySpirit shall come upon
thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that
holy thing(Jesus) which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

25% through Nathan (son of David), Mary's Father's lineage referenced in Romans 1:3 and listed in Luke 3:23-31…
Hebrew does not have wording for grandfather or great-grandfather or great-great-grandfather and so on; ect.

25% Levite (Mary's Mother's Father's lineage): referenced in Luke 1:5 & Luke 1:35…
Hebrew does not have a word for “cousin” and Geek does not have a word for “Aunt”.
Aaron was of the tribe of Levi(Exodus 4:14). And Zachariah had to Mary a Levite woman
to serve as the Priest in the service of the tabernacle (Numbers 18:22-23 / Numbers 3:9).

Quote

I have addressed this matter in the content of my Post.

Quote

That is how your so-called “Biblical insight and logic” sounds to me.

And to Gene and to Martian and others, I am sure.

So now ‘you’ presume to speak for Gene and Martian as well? (Click Here)

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

September 20, 2010 at 2:08 pm#216929

GeneBalthrop

Participant

Mike………Did you notice it say (SHALL BE) future tense , Shall be called a Son of GOD, Should not that clarify that fact he did (NOT) previously (EXIST) as a SON of GOD, at any time before his berth. If he already was a Son of GOD in a Past existence it would Not have said He (SHALL BE) Called that. Nor would it say in scripture (I) WILL be a Father unto Him and He WILL be a son unto Me both future tense not past tense expressions.

peace and love…………………….gene

September 22, 2010 at 3:58 am#217112

mikeboll64

Blocked

Quote (barley @ Sep. 20 2010,21:54)

Mikeboll,

But mikey, mikey, I want to play your game by your rules. I want to focus on one portion of scripture and laud it to the skies and ignore everything else.

Since Jesus is the son of David.

David preexisted Jesus Christ.

So if Jesus Christ preexisted before he was born and David preexisted Jesus Christ.

David has been around longer than your preexisting Jesus.

That makes David older than Jesus Christ.

Since Jesus Christ was the son of David. Then David had to be his father.

Hi barley,

You posted to me on Ed's post you goofball. Now Ed is answering you for me……and not doing a bad job either!

Do you really want to pursue this? Do we have to show where “son” of David doesn't have to mean “immediate son”? They called Abraham their father even when Jesus was on earth. Unlike mine, your silly points can be refuted in a heartbeat barley.

So, now that you agree that “offspring” or “Branch” of David means that Jesus came AFTER David, what did it mean when Jesus said he is also the “ROOT” of David?

You know what? I'll discuss any scriptural stuff you want one point at a time. I think you'll find that on most issues, we'll agree. But right now, could you just answer the last line in Phil 2:7? Because if you can't answer that one, they why should I use up my time defending my understanding against your silliness?

How can someone who already is a human being be made in the likeness of a human being?

It's a simple question. It's scriptural. Why don't any of you guys answer it? I've been asking it for weeks.

mike

September 22, 2010 at 4:03 am#217113

mikeboll64

Blocked

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 21 2010,01:08)

peace and love…………………….gene

Hi Gene,

Those are the best points you've come up with in over a month.

Dear God, will Jesus still be called the Son of God in a year from now?

“Why yes, he shall be called the Son of God.”

Okay, but will you still be his Father and will he still be your Son in a year from now?

“Why yes, I will be a Father to him and he will be a Son unto me.”

Aren't those pretty lame Gene? That's the kind of lame response I've been getting, so I thought I'd see how YOU like them. Except mine actually work and do make sense.

But I will answer you better later. It's late and I'm tired.

mike

September 22, 2010 at 8:16 am#217144

Ed J

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 22 2010,14:58)

Hi barley,

You posted to me on Ed's post you goofball. Now Ed is answering you for me……and not doing a bad job either!

mike

Hi Mike,

I didn't mean to steal your thunder! But I thought it was to me .
I now see that your name is on there instead of mine .
I try to be thorough, yet sticking the point .

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

September 22, 2010 at 8:43 am#217146

Ed J

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 22 2010,15:03)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 21 2010,01:08)

peace and love…………………….gene

Hi Gene,

Those are the best points you've come up with in over a month.

Dear God, will Jesus still be called the Son of God in a year from now?

“Why yes, he shall be called the Son of God.”

Okay, but will you still be his Father and will he still be your Son in a year from now?

“Why yes, I will be a Father to him and he will be a Son unto me.”

Aren't those pretty lame Gene? That's the kind of lame response I've been getting, so I thought I'd see how YOU like them. Except mine actually work and do make sense.

But I will answer you better later. It's late and I'm tired.

mike

Hi Mike,

The verses Gene sites may not be so conclusive, but his attempt to use them is far from being lame.
I appreciate this type of activity to illustrate how there conclusions are derived! Much better than IMO!
Because I care about how there opinions are derived, that can be common ground for discussing the matter.

When people perceive themselves to be attacked for opening up, they will be less likely to do so.
At that point they dig in heavily on their position, rather than making themselves vulnerable.
And then all we end up with is: 10,400 Pages of whether there is or is not “a trinity”!
This is why there is still is little to no advancement on that issue in this forum!

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

September 23, 2010 at 2:15 am#217232

mikeboll64

Blocked

Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 22 2010,19:43)

Hi Mike,

Hi Ed,

You misread what I said to Gene. I said those were the best he's offered. I am sincerely happy that he actually posted something of worth in his doctrine's behalf.

What I was calling “lame” was the flippant, off-the-top-of-my-head answers I gave.

Then I made a jab meaning, “See? How do you like silly answers instead of scriptures that defend your beliefs, Gene?”

Get it? Like you, I'm glad he posted those. I don't want to be “right” against Gene and Martian – I want to be “right with God”. If he has scriptures that say I'm seeing things wrong, then by all means, I want to see them and scrutinize them to see if I AM looking at it wrong.

peace and love,
mike

September 23, 2010 at 2:53 am#217235

mikeboll64

Blocked

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 21 2010,01:08)

peace and love…………………….gene

Hi Gene,

You mention Luke 1:35. The angel is telling Mary that her soon to be human son will be called the Son of God. I don't see where saying this human, after he is born in the flesh, will be called “Son of God” changes the fact that the spirit creature Jesus, through whom the universe was created, already existed as the Son of God in heaven at that time. Micah 5:2 makes clear his “origins are from days of antiquity, from ancient times”.

You mentioned 2 Samuel 7:14,

2 Samuel 7:14
I will be his father, and he will be my son. When he does wrong, I will punish him with the rod of men, with floggings inflicted by men.

This was originally said to King David about Solomon, hence the “when he does wrong” part. Paul applied these words to Jesus, and kept them word for word how they were said to David about his not yet born son.

I wouldn't read too much into the “will be” tense, since Jesus “will be” God's Son tomorrow, but that doesn't mean he is not God's Son today. God uses similar terminology in a few places in scripture, for example:

Ezekiel 36:28
You will live in the land I gave your forefathers; you will be my people, and I will be your God.

How can God be saying He “WILL BE” their God? Wasn't the only true God already the God of every living thing?

peace and love,
mike

September 25, 2010 at 4:03 pm#217568

GeneBalthrop

Participant

Mike…………So to you Jesus being a son of God makes him different then us right? Another false teaching of yours. Her is some scriptures you can deny or misrepresent too.

Rom 8:14……….> For as many as are led by the Spirit of GOD, they (ARE) the Sons of GOD.

Rom 8:19………..> For the earnest expectations of the creature waits for the manifestation of the (SONS OF GOD).

Gal 4:6…….> And because YOU ARE SONS , of God) GOD has sent the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying Abba Father.

Phi 2:15………> That you may be blameless and harmless, the SONS OF GOD, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom you shine as lights in the world.

1 Jo 3:1……….> Behold, what man ner of LOVE the Father has bestowed upon (US), that we should be called the SONS OF GOD: therefore the world knows us not because it knew him not.

1 Jo 3:2………..> Beloved (NOW) ARE WE THE SONS OF GOD……………,.

Mike do you see any difference in Jesus being a son of GOD as we are, YES YOU DO, because you false teaching of the preexistences has created this difference in you mind and it also creates it in others minds as well, your teaching of preexistences is a teaching of Separation between Jesus and Us his brothers and joint heirs with him. You divide the oneness of us and Jesus our brother, you and all who teach such are Antichrists even if you don't realize it.

peace and love…………………………..gene

September 26, 2010 at 12:41 pm#217746

barley

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 20 2010,23:29)

Quote (barley @ Sep. 20 2010,21:54)

Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 20 2010,09:29)

Quote (barley @ Sep. 20 2010,07:58)

Ed J,

Quote

Since JC was the offspring of David

does that not imply that

1. David preexisted Jesus Christ?

2. Jesse who was David's father preexisted David by one generation?

3. Jesse preexisted Jesus Christ by two generations?

Maybe you can answer these questions?

barley

Hi Barley,

Since you want to discuss Jesus' flesh on his mother's father's side; I will be very technical for you…

1. David lived all of his life before Jesus was born from Mary's womb.

2. Jesse was David's father and lived part of his life before David was born.

Any more questions? (Matt.7:7 / 2Tm.2:13)

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Mikeboll,

But mikey, mikey, I want to play your game by your rules. I want to focus on one portion of scripture and laud it to the skies and ignore everything else.

Since Jesus is the son of David.

David preexisted Jesus Christ.

So if Jesus Christ preexisted before he was born and David preexisted Jesus Christ.

David has been around longer than your preexisting Jesus.

That makes David older than Jesus Christ.

Since Jesus Christ was the son of David. Then David had to be his father.

David must have been very old when he impregnated Mary.

Hey, I am playing by your rules.

Hey, you don't like this.

But, I am playing by your rules.

I've caught on to your game and I am winning.

Now you don't like it.

You think I am the crazy one?

I've have simply done what you do.

That is how your so-called “Biblical insight and logic” sounds to me.

And to Gene and to Martian and others, I am sure.

barley

Hi Barley,

Your one-sided circular logic has holes in it, because
you are comparing (in essence) apples to oranges.
One is Spirit(Christ) and the other is flesh(Jesus).

By applying you're logic to a different occasion,
‘you’ might also consider Jesus had no purpose
here based entirely on John 3 verse number 63.

John 3:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing:
the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

What do ‘you’ consider “my rules” to be? I consider them to understand the bible as a whole! (Click Here)

Quote

I have addressed this matter in the content of my Post.

Quote

That is how your so-called “Biblical insight and logic” sounds to me.

And to Gene and to Martian and others, I am sure.

So now ‘you’ presume to speak for Gene and Martian as well? (Click Here)

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Ed J and Mikeboll,

I am playing Mikeboll's game. His game does not include logic. If it does, it does not include all the truths pertinent to the subject. He picks and chooses only those scriptures that backs up what he wants the scripture to teach. His game lets me to throw out scripture that does not agree with his logic. So now that Mike sent out the invitation to play. I will play by his rules.

Since JC was the son of David, then David was JC's father. End of story.

Since David is JC's father, David preexisted JC. End of story.

Since David preexisted JC. However long JC has been around, David was around even longer. End of story.

Since David must have had sex with Mary to have been JC's father, and David died, then we must introduce another term into the discussion of JC besides “preexist” we will now discuss, “POST EXISTED” If JC can preexist then David can POSTEXIST.

How's that for playing mikey's game?

You say my logic is circular, but that is what you do. You assume that Philippians 2 teaches preexistence because you want it to. You leave out vitaL portions of the pertinent verses as well as context and you want me to believe that you have something useful to teach? You don't.

Your doctrine of preexistence is all private interpretation. Jesus Christ was born. Matthew 1:18. He is God's plan for man's salvation, which he had in mind before the foundation of the world. See John 1:1. God's plan was with God, etc. It is God's plan, it is God. God has foreknowledge, He plans ahead, yet never oversteps mans' freedom to choose.

God knew that His plan would be successful. He planned it that way. He knew that JC would be gloriously victorious. He knew that before the implementation of Genesis 1:1.

Do I presume to speak for Gene and Martian? I have read enough of their posts to recognize that they, how should I say it? They disagree with you and your methods and your conclusions.

End of story.

barley

That is how Mikeboll's game is played.

Mikeboll are you paying attention?

I have learned to play your game and I am winning! In your game, I am now a bigger BS'er than you are. I win!

Now do you want answers? or do you want to play games?

I book that I would recommend that you find and read is Dr. Victor Paul Wierwille's book on the subject of pneuma hagion. It is called, “receiving the holy spirit today” It is the landmark work on the subject and clarifies what would take too long for me to do for you. It delineates the different ways that pneuma is used by God in the scriptures. You won't have to be confused by the difference between the uses of the name Jesus and the title Christ. You will see that God has described himself as the Holy Spirit and that the gift of eternal life, righteousness, it actually what is called the gift from God to us, holy spirit. God put holy spirit upon JC at his baptism. That gift is not a “who”, but an “it” or a “what”.

That should clarify many of your misconceptions about who JC is and who God is.

until then,

barley

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