Root and branch

Participant

To all,

1 Kings 14:15
King James Version (KJV)

15 For the Lord shall smite Israel, as a reed is shaken in the water, and he shall root up Israel out of this good land, which he gave to their fathers, and shall scatter them beyond the river, because they have made their groves, provoking the Lord to anger.

and

2 Kings 19:30
King James Version (KJV)

30 And the remnant that is escaped of the house of Judah shall yet again take root downward, and bear fruit upward.

March 23, 2013 at 1:20 am#339157

terraricca

Participant

being the ROOT and the BRANCH OR SEED

IS ALSO AN OTHER WAY OF SAYING ;
I am the First and the Last.

March 23, 2013 at 12:26 pm#339203

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 23 2013,07:20)

being the ROOT and the BRANCH OR SEED

IS ALSO AN OTHER WAY OF SAYING ;
I am the First and the Last.

Not when it is referring to Jehovah. In that case it means the first and last God.

Jesus is the beginning and finisher of the faith of believers.

Jesus is also the only Son of God.

March 23, 2013 at 12:57 pm#339204

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 22 2013,14:24)

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 20 2013,06:30)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 20 2013,08:46)

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 19 2013,06:23)

Neither root or foundation were stated to be synonyms of first. If you desire to conclude they are then find a definition or synonym to make your case.

From Dictionary.com:

root

Definition: base, core

Synonyms: basis, cause, foundation, origin, seed, starting point

Are those close enough to stop the hoop jumping, Kerwin? Because I can link “basis” to “the principle on which something depends or from which something has issued”. And then I can link “principle” to “a source or fundamental cause”. And I can go on and on and on with all the other synonyms listed above – if you really need me to.

Now, here is my question again:

The love of money is the ROOT of all kinds of evil.

According to Paul's statement, does “the love of money” come BEFORE the “all kinds of evil”? YES or NO?

Mike,

I know you are trying to force the interpretation but lets be patient and look at the evidence.

Greed is the base of all kinds of evil.
Greed is the core of all all kinds of evil.
Greed is the beginnings of all kinds of evil.

Is Jesus the base of Jesse?
Is Jesus the core of Jesse?
Is Jesus the beginnings of Jesse?

God laid Jesus as the cornerstone, the prophets and apostles as the foundation, and the believers as the building.

When did he lay Jesus as the corner stone?

Trying to force the interpretation? Have you lost your mind, Kerwin?

Any idiot knows that the “root of” something, in metaphoric speech, is the thing FROM WHICH that something comes. It is YOU who is pretending like you're too dumb to understand this simple thing that even a five year old kid can understand.

In Paul's statement, does the love of money come BEFORE the all kinds of evil? YES or NO?

And YES to all your Jesus questions. They are all just different ways of saying that Jesus came BEFORE David as the ROOT OF David.

And btw, from Dictionary.com:

Main Entry: cornerstone

Part of Speech: noun

Definition: vital element

Synonyms: anchor, base, essential, foundation, key element, keystone, linchpin, main ingredient, mainspring, mainstay, pillar

Can you see that cornerstone and foundation are synonyms?

Kerwin, are you ready to stop playing games, and just admit the OBVIOUS that “the root OF” something comes BEFORE that something?

Perhaps you people should look into the history of the book of Revelation before you pass judgment in such a rude manner (Mike!)

It was not considered as canon. Luther didn't want it, as one example.

I am not saying that I agree, I am just saying.

March 23, 2013 at 12:58 pm#339205

http://freethought.mbdojo.com/canon.html

Participant

March 23, 2013 at 1:05 pm#339206

Participant

Quote:

Martin Luther

The greatest name in the records of the Protestant church is Martin Luther. He is generally recognized as its founder; he is considered one of the highest authorities on the Bible; he devoted a large portion of his life to its study; he made a translation of it for his people, a work which is accepted as one of the classics of German literature. With Luther the Bible superseded the church as a divine authority. And yet this greatest of Protestants rejected no less than six of the sixty-six books composing the Protestant Bible.

Luther rejected the book of Esther. He says: “I am such an enemy to the book of Esther that I wish it did not exist.” In his “Bondage of the Will,” he severely criticises the book.

He rejected the book of Jonah. He says: “The history of Jonah is so monstrous as to be absolutely incredible.” (Colloquia, Chap. LX., Sec. 10).

He rejected Hebrews: “The Epistle to the Hebrews is not by St. Paul; nor, indeed, by any apostle.” (Standing Preface to Luther’s New Testament).

He rejected the Epistle of James: “St. James' Epistle is truly an epistle of straw.” (Preface to Edition of 1524).

He rejected Jude. “The Epistle of Jude,” he says, “allegeth stories and sayings which have no place in Scripture.” (Standing Preface).

He rejected Revelation. He says: “I can discover no trace that it is established by the Holy Spirit.” (Preface to Edition of 1622).

March 23, 2013 at 3:10 pm#339209

GeneBalthrop

Participant

Mike……..You rudely criticize Kerwin, but Truth is any simpleton Knows Jesus was referring to his Past ancestral linage, Jesus is also called the root of Jesse and in those scriptures it is clearly referring to Jesus coming form His roots, not Jesse coming from Jesus' roots. Kerwin has given you the true meaning of what Jesus was talking about, but again you don't except the truth, but only Mike's truth you want, so you start to belittle people , bad form , Mike

peace and love to you and yours………………………………….gene

March 23, 2013 at 4:43 pm#339212

mikeboll64

Blocked

So 2B doesn't actually argue against the COMMON SENSE that the “root of” something comes BEFORE that something. He instead argues against John's revelation itself, thinking that if we could only remove that book, we could eliminate those words of Jesus, which have become a problem for the non-preexisters.

Gene, on the other hand, has to twist the words of what Jesus said, changing “I am the Root of David” to “I have come FROM the roots of David”.

And Kerwin just keeps on pretending that he can't understand the simple concept that a “root of” something comes BEFORE that something.

From these posts, I can conclude that both 2B and Gene actually understand the concept. That is why one of them wants to eliminate the entire book in which that concept is taught, and the other wants to twist the words his Lord actually said.

That means that Kathi, Mike, Gene, and 2B all understand the simple concept that the “root OF” something comes BEFORE that something. So what about Kerwin? Why is it so hard for HIM to understand that simple concept that the rest of us so easily understand?

Hint: Kerwin absolutely understands the concept. Why do you guys think he keeps REFUSING to answer that simple question I keep asking him? Not because he DOESN'T understand, but because he must PRETEND not to understand.

And that, my friends, is what I consider to be “game playing”. And I can only take this silly game playing so long until my patience wears thin. So who is really at fault for my “rudeness” to Kerwin? Me, who simply asked a simple question that he keeps refusing to answer? Or him, who refuses to answer the simple question, and instead keeps trying to lead us AWAY FROM that simple question?

Gene honestly and correctly answered the question the first time I asked it – over a couple of weeks ago. So why can't Kerwin answer it? And why should I be “nice” to a man who is PURPOSELY refusing to answer the simple question that would put this discussion to rest?

Here is that question once more:

In Paul's statement, does the love of money come BEFORE the all kinds of evil? YES or NO?

Kerwin, will you answer the question?

And here is a compound question for all of you:

Is Jesse the root of David? YES or NO?

Is David the root of Jesse? YES or NO?

March 23, 2013 at 4:59 pm#339215

terraricca

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 23 2013,18:26)

Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 23 2013,07:20)

being the ROOT and the BRANCH OR SEED

IS ALSO AN OTHER WAY OF SAYING ;
I am the First and the Last.

Not when it is referring to Jehovah. In that case it means the first and last God.

Jesus is the beginning and finisher of the faith of believers.

Jesus is also the only Son of God.

kerwin

show me in scriptures where it is referring to Jehovah the father God almighty

March 23, 2013 at 8:40 pm#339239

Participant

Mike, Why does anyone HAVE to answer any questions?

As for “Root of David” I have not given it any thought whatsoever. It is not a scripture that I have been shown through the Holy Spirit. The book of Revelations is twisted by almost everybody in the world to mean 1000 different things, and as i have shown you even Martin Luther did not want it, and the Church of the East did not know what to think of it and advised people not try and interpret it. It was disputed from the very beginning.

So I will not be answering any questions on that particular verse because, as I said, I have not even thought about it, despite it being the number one thing, it seems, spoken about on this forum, at the moment!

March 23, 2013 at 9:09 pm#339246

Participant

Quote (2besee @ Mar. 23 2013,08:05)

Quote:

Martin Luther

Luther rejected the book of Esther. He says: “I am such an enemy to the book of Esther that I wish it did not exist.” In his “Bondage of the Will,” he severely criticises the book.

He rejected the book of Jonah. He says: “The history of Jonah is so monstrous as to be absolutely incredible.” (Colloquia, Chap. LX., Sec. 10).

He rejected Hebrews: “The Epistle to the Hebrews is not by St. Paul; nor, indeed, by any apostle.” (Standing Preface to Luther’s New Testament).

He rejected the Epistle of James: “St. James' Epistle is truly an epistle of straw.” (Preface to Edition of 1524).

He rejected Jude. “The Epistle of Jude,” he says, “allegeth stories and sayings which have no place in Scripture.” (Standing Preface).

He rejected Revelation. He says: “I can discover no trace that it is established by the Holy Spirit.” (Preface to Edition of 1622).

2besee,
Look at Romans 15, that book isn't on the list that you have there.

7Accept one another, then, just as Christ accepted you, in order to bring praise to God. 8For I tell you that Christ has become a servant of the Jews on behalf of God’s truth, so that the promises made to the patriarchs might be confirmed 9and, moreover, that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy. As it is written:

“Therefore I will praise you among the Gentiles;

I will sing the praises of your name.”

10Again, it says,

“Rejoice, you Gentiles, with his people.”

11And again,

“Praise the Lord, all you Gentiles;

let all the peoples extol him.”

12And again, Isaiah says,

“The Root of Jesse will spring up,

one who will arise to rule over the nations;

in him the Gentiles will hope.”

Jesus is the Root of Jesse as well as the offspring of David. He is both!

March 23, 2013 at 9:16 pm#339247

Participant

Mike,
you asked:

Quote

Is Jesse the root of David? YES or NO?

Is David the root of Jesse? YES or NO?

No, Jesse is not considered the root of David in the context of Isa 11. Although, we could say 'yes' to that in a sense but not in the same sense it is used in Isa 11.
No, David is not the root of Jesse.

I don't believe that a father or forefather are referred to as roots of their descendants but I have not really looked into it that much.

March 23, 2013 at 9:22 pm#339250

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 21 2013,23:04)

Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 22 2013,09:30)

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 21 2013,20:05)

LU,

Jesus is the offspring of Jesse, the shoot that comes out of the stump of Jesse. The stump that is rooted in Yawheh.

Jesus is the root of Jesse, the corner stone that is laid in Zion.

The foundation stones of the prophets were laid first. Jesus, the cornerstone was laid next, the foundation stones of the apostles third, and the rest of the people thereafter.

Hi Kerwin,
Read the passage:

Isaiah 11:1
There shall come forth a shoot from the stump of Jesse, and a branch from his roots shall bear fruit.

In regards to the root and shoot of Jesse, the Branch is from his (the stump of Jesse) Roots.

It is this verse that we get the messianic prophecy of Jesus as the Shoot/Branch of Jesse. In that verse, the Root of Jesse is not the same part of the plant as the Shoot of Jesse.

LU,

Stumps have roots and very little else. A shoot that comes from a stump is little different than a branch.

Kerwin,
In this passage, I believe that the 'shoot' is another way of saying the 'branch.' However, the shoot/branch is not another way of saying the root/roots. The roots are a separate part of the plant than the shoot/branch. Jesus is both parts and you don't believe that because you think that does not agree with scripture. Christians all over the world believe that it does agree with scripture. I think it is your understanding that blocks you from seeing that it agrees. Do not lean on your own understanding, it can get in the way of seeing things truthfully and more clearly.

Isa 11:1A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse;

from his roots a Branch will bear fruit.

March 23, 2013 at 9:55 pm#339253

Participant

LU,

Quote

Isa 11:1A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse;
from his roots a Branch will bear fruit.

Young's Literal Translation
And a rod hath come out from the stock of Jesse, And a branch from his roots is fruitful.

“His roots” means from Jesse's roots, does it not?

Quote

Romans 15……………..
“The Root of Jesse will spring up,
one who will arise to rule over the nations”

Matthew 1:
1The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

2Abraham was the father of Isaac, and Isaac the father of Jacob, and Jacob the father of Judah and his brothers, 3and Judah the father of Perez and Zerah by Tamar, and Perez the father of Hezron, and Hezron the father of Ram, 4and Ram the father of Amminadab, and Amminadab the father of Nahshon, and Nahshon the father of Salmon, 5and Salmon the father of Boaz by Rahab, and Boaz the father of Obed by Ruth, and Obed the father of Jesse, 6and Jesse the father of David the king.

And David was the father of Solomon by the wife of Uriah, 7and Solomon the father of Rehoboam, and Rehoboam the father of Abijah, and Abijah the father of Asaph,b 8and Asaph the father of Jehoshaphat, and Jehoshaphat the father of Joram, and Joram the father of Uzziah, 9and Uzziah the father of Jotham, and Jotham the father of Ahaz, and Ahaz the father of Hezekiah, 10and Hezekiah the father of Manasseh, and Manasseh the father of Amos,c and Amos the father of Josiah, 11and Josiah the father of Jechoniah and his brothers, at the time of the deportation to Babylon.

12And after the deportation to Babylon: Jechoniah was the father of Shealtiel,d and Shealtiel the father of Zerubbabel, 13and Zerubbabel the father of Abiud, and Abiud the father of Eliakim, and Eliakim the father of Azor, 14and Azor the father of Zadok, and Zadok the father of Achim, and Achim the father of Eliud, 15and Eliud the father of Eleazar, and Eleazar the father of Matthan, and Matthan the father of Jacob, 16and Jacob the father of Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom Jesus was born, who is called Christ.

Does this not explain it?

March 23, 2013 at 10:12 pm#339254

Participant

Or, if you look at it from an alternative view of the root:

Wisdom – Chapter 1
From the New Jerusalem Bible.

4 'Wisdom will never enter the soul of a wrong-doer, nor dwell in a body enslaved to sin;
5 For the Holy Spirit of instruction flees deceitfulness, recoils from unintelligent thoughts, is thwarted by the onset of vice.
6 Wisdom is a spirit friendly to humanity, though she will not let a blasphemer's words go unpunished; since God observes the very soul and accurately surveys the heart, listening to every word.
7 For the Spirit of the Lord fills the world, and that which holds everything together knows every word said.'

I don't know where that fits in, exactly, but it just came to me.

March 23, 2013 at 10:50 pm#339258

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 23 2013,22:59)

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 23 2013,18:26)

Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 23 2013,07:20)

being the ROOT and the BRANCH OR SEED

IS ALSO AN OTHER WAY OF SAYING ;
I am the First and the Last.

Not when it is referring to Jehovah. In that case it means the first and last God.

Jesus is the beginning and finisher of the faith of believers.

Jesus is also the only Son of God.

kerwin

show me in scriptures where it is referring to Jehovah the father God almighty

Isaiah 48:11-12
King James Version (KJV)

11 For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another.
12 Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.

Isaiah 41:4
King James Version (KJV)

4 Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the Lord, the first, and with the last; I am he.

March 24, 2013 at 3:06 am#339273

terraricca

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 24 2013,04:50)

Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 23 2013,22:59)

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 23 2013,18:26)

Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 23 2013,07:20)

being the ROOT and the BRANCH OR SEED

IS ALSO AN OTHER WAY OF SAYING ;
I am the First and the Last.

Not when it is referring to Jehovah. In that case it means the first and last God.

Jesus is the beginning and finisher of the faith of believers.

Jesus is also the only Son of God.

kerwin

show me in scriptures where it is referring to Jehovah the father God almighty

Isaiah 48:11-12
King James Version (KJV)

Isaiah 41:4
King James Version (KJV)

4 Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the Lord, the first, and with the last; I am he.

Kerwin

thank you ,

Quote

Not when it is referring to Jehovah. In that case it means the first and last God.

I would rather say it means he his the creator and he would have the last words

Quote

.Jesus is the beginning and finisher of the faith of believers

yes, but it started after Adam sinned ,

March 24, 2013 at 7:00 am#339285

Participant

Quote (2besee @ Mar. 23 2013,16:55)

LU,

Quote

Isa 11:1A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse;
from his roots a Branch will bear fruit.

Young's Literal Translation
And a rod hath come out from the stock of Jesse, And a branch from his roots is fruitful.

“His roots” means from Jesse's roots, does it not?

Quote

Romans 15……………..
“The Root of Jesse will spring up,
one who will arise to rule over the nations”

Matthew 1:
1The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

Does this not explain it?

2besee,
It is clear that Jesus, according to Him being David's offspring, the Shoot or Branch in other words, lines up with His geneology according to the flesh.

However, Jesus is also the root of Jesse which had to exist before Jesse as something foundational to Jesse's existence.

Jesus is both the root of Jesse and the offspring of David. Your geneology that you put up only explains the offspring of David part.

March 24, 2013 at 4:56 pm#339314

GeneBalthrop

Participant

Lightenup…………You have it backwards , Jesse did not spring up from Jesus Roots , it was Jesus who sprang up from the roots of Jesse, it is clearly explaind in those scriptures, God was talking about Jesse's future ofspring would be Jesus and he would come for “Jesses” roots stock. It is clear and easy to understand there is no “MYSTERY” about it > Why can't ypu see that?

peace and love to you and yours………………………………………….gene

March 24, 2013 at 7:31 pm#339321