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theodorej When you say that Jesus existed as the word and the word was God, I hope you don't mean that He was the Almighty God. There too, some do not understand that God is a title. There are many Gods, just like Satan is called the God of this world. Jesus was there as the word before the world began.
Peace and Love Mrs.I am not baptized. Why? Well, who is there to baptize me ? I don't belong to a church. Can a person baptize them self? If not, what is the criteria a person should have in order to baptize someone? Or better stated, what should be the criteria that I hold to the person who performs the baptism on me? Personally I feel like I'll just wait for Yeshua to do the job, if the ritual is still necessary.
theodorej and Jodi! I do not know what criteria a person has to have to be able to Baptize another. But all I do know that when I was Baptized something amazing happened. The very next day God showed my faults and sins that my conscious mind was not aware of.
I also know that Mr. Armstrong was a Minister in the Seven Day Adventist. I believe that they go way back and traced to be Gods Church. If that has something to do with it, I do not know. One thing that has always bothered me that other Ministers do not lay hands on a person after Baptism. The W.W.C.G. Ministers did. But I also believe that God will call people and even tho you are not Baptized does not mean that you can't understand God's truth. He will give His Spirit whoever He chooses not man.
Peace and Love Mrs.Quote (Jodi @ April 27 2008,17:43) I am not baptized. Why? Well, who is there to baptize me ? I don't belong to a church. Can a person baptize them self? If not, what is the criteria a person should have in order to baptize someone? Or better stated, what should be the criteria that I hold to the person who performs the baptism on me? Personally I feel like I'll just wait for Yeshua to do the job, if the ritual is still necessary.
Hi Jodi,Two summer's ago I was re-baptized in the name of Jesus.
I was originally baptized under the trinitarian formula when I was 9 years old. I felt that according to scripture, I should be baptized in the name of Jesus (not the Father, Son and Holy Ghost). So I found a group of Abrahamic believers and started to study with them (they are like-minded believers and close to Christadelphians). One of the brothers there baptized me in my own hot tub! It was a private ceremony with only my family and a couple friends. It was an amazing renewal of my committment to God and a great time of blessing. However, I don't think that it was necessary.
I think any like-minded believer can baptize you. If you have a hot-tub and your husband shares your belief in Jesus and the God of Jesus……take a dip in the name of Jesus!
I think we tend to complicate things too much.
Mandy! We get Baptized in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the God's Holy Spirit. Not only Jesus. It is God's Spirit that we receive at Baptizm that is so important. We are born from above and receive God's Holy Spirit. And that not everybody can do, I do not think so. But to each His own, right Mandy.
Greetings gtfoxy……Iam sorry I confused your response on thread 86 with Mrs….I have read both RWs books a few times each….It appears we have similar interests and your points are well taken….given cause to maybe read his writings again….It is apparant you were able to gleen certain points that I have overlooked….
Quote (theodorej @ April 26 2008,20:16) Greetings Mrs…..I thank you for your stated position on some very notable points of interest,and you have certainly caused me to do some serious research…..Notwithstanding RWs position on the trinity,I was always comfortable with the Eternal being the creator of all that is and he is spirit and by mere thought or word things were created….If we could agree on this point than my feeling is there is scripture to support it…The Word was with God,The word was God,The Word was made flesh and dwelt anong us,In the beginning was the Word…..I researched scripture specifically the OT and found no mention of Jesus,having said that,I know he existed,however not as Jesus,but as the Word…..
Jesus is God and indeed his only begotton son,The first born of the dead,The son of Man and so on…Let me put this to you as a “What If “….What if as part of Gods' plan for man to become sons of God…Jesus is his very first creation and just as we are promised a ressurection to a spiritual existance,Jesus has already been given God powers,in this case the authority as King of Kings and Lord of Lords…Gods perfect plan for man can only be exemplified through Jesus,his sacrafice and his ministry here on earth…..Having said that The Word Made Flesh is the very personage of Jesus and came to be through an inpregnation by the spirit of God in conjunction with a virgin birth…..We must never loose sight of the fact that “God can do anything” simply because he is God…
Greetings Foxy…..This is my post in response to your input/thanks…TJGreetings 942767…..Baptism is a doctrine I am extremely interested in….The answer to your question is NO…Pitch in educate me……thanks / tj
Quote (Jodi @ April 27 2008,17:43) I am not baptized. Why? Well, who is there to baptize me ? I don't belong to a church. Can a person baptize them self? If not, what is the criteria a person should have in order to baptize someone? Or better stated, what should be the criteria that I hold to the person who performs the baptism on me? Personally I feel like I'll just wait for Yeshua to do the job, if the ritual is still necessary.
Greetings Jodi…..Your position makes sense,although it is contrary to common belief….My question is,”Is there a Baptism of desire”….That is scriptual…In the event that there is….That would bring into question a lot of commonly held beliefs….Quote (seek and you will find @ April 27 2008,06:23)
How do you explain when it says that Jesus before He became a man, was the FIRSTBORN OF ALL CREATION.He was the first born of the Sons of God, and does it say this happened before he became a man?
Quote (seek and you will find @ April 27 2008,06:23)
That is not just in the mind of the Father. He was His Son, He was the Spokes-word of God the Father. It says that He became,( the Word,) emptied Himself and became man.Got a quote for that?
Quote (seek and you will find @ April 27 2008,06:23)
Also in John 17:5 And now O Father glorify Me with the glory I had with You before the world was. What was that glory?Look into that verse in the Greek, and you will notice a slight difference than that English translation. Look into the meaning of the word translated as “I had”, it is more often translated as “they had” or simply “had”. Also some words have been switched around. the words “with you” are actually placed after “the world was”, i.e “the world was with you”, not “I had with you”. The English translators had more often than not decided on their doctrine before they even began translating.
Quote (seek and you will find @ April 27 2008,06:23)
Col.1:15-18 Firstborn of all creation and firstborn of the death. So in all He (Jesus) has preeminence.(meaning first in all).Verse 18 explains what first born of all creation means. He was first born son of God, and from the dead into Elohim.
Hebrews 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the first begotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
Why would God say this? Was Jesus in existence with God before but the Angels weren't allowed to worship him?
Quote (seek and you will find @ April 27 2008,06:23)
Just believe how it is written and you will see, that all other scriptures line up correctly.The problem with that is you end up with the doctrine of the English translators. We are meant to search the scriptures.
Quote (seek and you will find @ April 27 2008,06:23)
Also nobody has seen or heard the Father speak, so who was talking in the O.T. it was either Jesus or an Angel.Actually people have heard Him speak, he had a name, and it was Yahweh, who was the Father. Jesus himself pointed this out…
Mark 12:36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, the LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
He was quoting Psalms 110:1 A Psalm of David. The LORD (hebrew= Yahweh) said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
If you read Acts 2, Peter points out that this was a prophecy of God the father (Yahweh) talking to Christ…
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right handSo if what David wrote in Hebrew (The LORD (Yahweh) said unto my Lord) was talking about God the Father talking to Christ, then Yahweh is the Father, the Eternal. Now look through the old testament at all the times Yahweh talks to the prophets, patriarchs etc (you can see this by looking for LORD in capital letters, this means it is translated from the Hebrew word Yahweh).
Exodus 4:4 And the LORD said unto Moses, Put forth thine hand, and take it by the tail. And he put forth his hand, and caught it, and it became a rod in his hand:
GENESIS 18:13 And the LORD said unto Abraham, Wherefore did Sarah laugh, saying, Shall I of a surety bear a child, which am old?
EXODUS 7:14 And the LORD said unto Moses, Pharaoh's heart is hardened, he refuseth to let the people go.
JOSHUA 10:8 And the LORD said unto Joshua, Fear them not: for I have delivered them into thine hand; there shall not a man of them stand before thee.
This is God the Father talking. Also look through Genesis to see who exactly did the creating, it was Yahweh.
Genesis 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Now, what do you make of this?
ISAIAH 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.So where was Jesus?
Quote (Ptr745 @ April 28 2008,02:33) Now, what do you make of this? ISAIAH 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.So where was Jesus?
Very good point.The trinitarians have this point covered due to their multi-personality/one being God. But I know Irene (Seek) does not believe in the trinity. I will be interested in her response.
Ptr. and Mandy! Isaiah 45:5 has nothing to do with the preexisting of Jesus. Isaiah explains that there is only one LORD. When LORD is in capital letters it is always God the Father. Where was Jesus, With Him. He was the Word. John 1 shows us that He was the Word until He the Word became flesh and became Jesus. I have a question for both of you:” Why do you find it so important that Jesus has to be mentioned all the time.” But later in Isaiah 53 Isaiah does mentioned Him, but not by name. He did not know that His name would be Jesus.
This also explains that there is no trinity. Interesting, right. Already then can we see certain truths. Even tho Ephesians 4:4-6 is the scriptures I like to use to show how wrong the trinity is.
Peace and Love Mrs.Quote (Not3in1 @ April 28 2008,03:08) Quote (Ptr745 @ April 28 2008,02:33) Now, what do you make of this? ISAIAH 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.So where was Jesus?
Very good point.The trinitarians have this point covered due to their multi-personality/one being God. But I know Irene (Seek) does not believe in the trinity. I will be interested in her response.
Greetings Mandy….I would think that the….Thought process (eg.The Word)by which all things were created in conjunction with the essense of Gods being spirit do not constitute a sum of three entities or a trinity…..If any thing it would support it would be a complete discription of one….God Is…theodorej You are right, what they think is that the Spirit is a being like Jesus and the Father. but when you read in Ephes. 4:4-6 it makes it clear that there is only one Holy Spirit of God that combines us all. Not only that the trinity doctrine believes that all three are equal. That is what can be also proven to be wrong. The Father is above all and in us all. The Father is greater then I, Jesus said.
Peace and Love Mrs.Quote (seek and you will find @ April 28 2008,04:05) Where was Jesus, With Him.
Bingo.This is the debate. How was Jesus “with” him. Too many interpretations to say for sure that Jesus was physically present in any capacity.
Mandy Jesus was a spirit Being when He was the Word. He only became physical when He became a Man. No interpretations, it is clear scripture. John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word and the Word was God and He was with God. And then He became flesh. No trinity, if you know that God is a Family and we too will be God's then you will have no problem understanding it. 1Corinth. 15:28…that God will be all in all.
Peace and Love Mrs.
Peace and Love Mrs.Quote (theodorej @ April 28 2008,00:09) Greetings gtfoxy……Iam sorry I confused your response on thread 86 with Mrs….I have read both RWs books a few times each….It appears we have similar interests and your points are well taken….given cause to maybe read his writings again….It is apparant you were able to gleen certain points that I have overlooked….
TJ, I appreciate your consideration and your input.We do have the same interest, Truth! We all want it and feel we must work hard to find it. Gone are the days of a deffinative knowledge one is, and is indeed, who he says he is. There are too many warnings in the NT to blindly follow anyone in todays age. That being said, we still should not “Despise the words of the Prophets.” That is not what I am doing. I am trying to “Compare ALL things to truth.” Which, is the scriptures that I have, and the level of Faith I hold dear to me.
Do I not find much Truth in what RW has to say? Yes I do. Perhaps I misunderstand certain things he says, perhaps not. “Time will tell all truths and reveal all lies”…. That is a saying I have followed since I was a teenager. That is, I found out much later, it something the Bible make explicitly clear.
SAYWF, please do not think I am Mocking anyone or God! I am, honestly, trying to find what is, indeed, truth.
I agree with your above statements. I have a disconcertment with some specific statements RW made in his last few sermons, as I took it to mean. I listened over and over, and no, it is not for the fact I do not have “Ears to Hear”, on the contrary, I am, with out a doubt, hearing what my Father is telling me. Is it all that I need to know? No, not as of yet. I do, however have faith he will reveal it to me when the time is right.
Believe me, I, on a very honest level, want him to be right, but again, I do not think the Father is going to hold it against me if, all the while seeking his will, I “Compare all things to truth” as his word tells me. I am not “Mocking” RW or God, or you, or anyone else who, perhaps, has more truth than I have been given. Am I trying to “Hold on” to this world? By no Means! I have let it go long ago. I hold nothing of value, when compared to my spritual health and my relationship with the Father, that has to do with this world. I do however pray day in and day out that I can see the Day of my Lord and Saviors' return. To be Blessed with that great occurence is something Past generations longed for, but yet, we are the benefactors.
I do not hold RW's or anyones judgement against me as anything, as paul said, “I do not even judge myself.” For Judgment is but ones', and we all know who that is.
May the time come when the Whole World will bask in the great time of Truth on Earth, Amen.
Quote (seek and you will find @ April 28 2008,11:05) Mandy Jesus was a spirit Being when He was the Word. He only became physical when He became a Man. No interpretations, it is clear scripture. John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word and the Word was God and He was with God. And then He became flesh. No trinity, if you know that God is a Family and we too will be God's then you will have no problem understanding it. 1Corinth. 15:28…that God will be all in all. Peace and Love Mrs.
Peace and Love Mrs.
It is not clear scripture, it is a clear interpretation because it is your clear view.Obviously John 1:1 is the most debated passage there is, so no, it's not clear.
Quote (Not3in1 @ April 28 2008,09:56) Quote (seek and you will find @ April 28 2008,04:05) Where was Jesus, With Him.
Bingo.This is the debate. How was Jesus “with” him. Too many interpretations to say for sure that Jesus was physically present in any capacity.
You see that is the problem, in a “Nut-Shell”.Jesus was not “Physically” present at that time…why? …Because he was “Spiritually” present at that time.
We are the only thing that is “Physically” present at this time. Everything else is “Spiritually” present. This earth and all we know is Physical, we are bound by “Time”, and other things that we think we understand that we do not.
If we can't even understand our “Own” existence? How should we be able to understand our makers Existence?
We can't.
It's that simple …we can't understand things. We like to think we can. And we certainly like to claim how we think we understand something.
But the fact remains that we just simply can't.
Our minds can't even fathom the things of GOD.
1 Cor 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
It's all so far over our head that is is supremely not funny at all…or maybe it is funny. I do have to admit that it is rather funny when you look at the grand scheme of things. How we seem to think all things have been reveled to us. And, how much we think we understand that someone else don't. My friends…Thats…
PRIDE
BIG OLD FAT PRIDE!
Its a seed of evil that we some how need to learn how to get rid of.
We only understand the things that are meant for us to understand and know.
We can read the bible 100 times…and in the 101st time that we read it we might learn something new…or understand something a different way…because of something we may be going through in our lives at that time.
The Bible is probably like 1 tenth of GODS whole plan if that…we have a very very very very very very small understanding of everything that GOD has done…is doing…and plans to do.
The smartest Bible scholar or prophet on the earth has only but a very small grain of sand of knowledge of every thing there is to know about GOD.
It is SUPREMELY NAIVE to think for half a millisecond that we know every thing.
No one ever has, no one does, and its possible that no one every will.
It would be like trying to download 10 million Terabytes into a 80 Gigabyte Hard Drive…It would not all fit.
We need to realize that its not about us, or how good we think we are, or how smart we think we are…or how much we think GOD loves us more than someone else.
Its about us all, being able to love one another…and having a relationship with GOD.
We will see …we will see very soon. Things are coming to a very fast halt. This world has but a short time left before it undergoes some major changes and make-overs.
There is a lot of spring cleaning that is about to be done here on this little rock.
Quote (seek and you will find @ April 28 2008,04:05)
Ptr. and Mandy! Isaiah 45:5 has nothing to do with the preexisting of Jesus. Isaiah explains that there is only one LORD. When LORD is in capital letters it is always God the Father. Where was Jesus, With Him.Sorry but that is incorrect. It does not only say there is only one LORD (Yahweh) and there was nobody beside him, it also says there is only one God (Elohim), since at this time there was no Elohim except Yahweh.
ISAIAH 45:5 I am the LORD (Yahweh), and there is none else, there is no God (Elohim) beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
If Yahweh is then the father, there was nobody beside him, there is only one of him, and he also says there is no Elohim beside him, then you can only come to one or both of two conclusions:
1: Jesus was not yet in existence
2: Jesus was not yet ElohimSo which is it?
Quote (seek and you will find @ April 28 2008,04:05)
John 1 shows us that He was the Word until He the Word became flesh and became Jesus.He was the word of God made flesh, it does not say that Jesus was the word until he became flesh. I am my fathers sperm made flesh, but that sperm was not me, I did not come into being until it was joined with my mother.
Quote (seek and you will find @ April 28 2008,04:05)
I have a question for both of you:” Why do you find it so important that Jesus has to be mentioned all the time.” But later in Isaiah 53 Isaiah does mentioned Him, but not by name.Why do I think it is so important that Jesus is mentioned all the time? I thought that would be obvious, but all the times he is mentioned, previous to his birth, is in the context of prophecy, just as in Isaiah 53.
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