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I love this quote of yours:
Who shows more faith then? the man who follows the majority and hopes a revelation of secrets was true? Or the man who reads the book God intended us to have, that we may protect ourselves from false teachers; and who then goes against what the world is telling them to believe because the word did not coincide with the world’s beliefs? What faith would be easier to have? Ours… or yours?
But I am not so sure about scripture not convincing a person. If we use scripture to sell a lie, then we have to twist that scripture and thus only a twisted person will fall for it. But if a person is true and faithful, then scripture will speak to his heart and even if all men disagree with scripture a true man or woman will be willing to believe that only God is true and every man a liar.
Elijah thought he was the only one and when you are in that position, you have to question yourself more than anyone. But when you have done that, and scripture says that eternal life is to know the only true God and Jesus Christ whom he has sent, then we will believe it because Jesus said it. Even if the whole world is against us, we will not give up on our Lord because we are his sheep and we hear his voice.
Thus if we quote the words of Jesus Christ in scripture, then this is not in vain because the sheep will hears his voice and will not hear the voice of another like Athanasius or the Pope.Thanks terraricca…Umm no that’s not what I think, in fact I’m sure t8 said that he believed the Trinity when he was first saved….and it was not until later (when he delved into writings outside of Scripture), that he has now come up with this theological concept denying the Godhead…and absolute Deity of Christ (which is so obvious portrayed in Scripture)…I mean, just read John 1:1 with no preconceived ideas or no theological teaching – common, it’s really quite straight forward and simple..
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Do you really need a whole list of verses…? How about Isaiah 9:6…?! Revelation 1:8….how would you read these two verses with no outside influence – just you and the Holy Spirit…..?Isaiah 9:6 –
“For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.”
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Revelation 1:8 –
“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”
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There are so many verses like this that get strangely overlooked or explained away to suit those that have become indoctrinated against the Trinity in Scripture, through extra-Biblical teachings…One point you make is true and the other is not.
It was scripture that was the final nail in me believing that there is one God the Father, and one Lord, the Lord Jesus Christ.
Reading the second century father’s (or those after the Apostles) writings about Jesus being the first work of the Father and the Word that came from God and was with God, came many years later. I wanted to understand what these men thought about John 1:1 and they believed that the Word was Jesus and that he came from God and is not God himself.Colossians 2:8-10:
“See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ. For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority.”Wrong again DavidL. Strangely overlooked? Wrong, they are addressed not ignored.
We do not ignore scripture because we do so at our peril.
You ignore this:
Jesus said, “this is eternal life that you may know the only true God and Jesus Christ whom he has sent”.
As you can see, the one doing the ignoring is you. Please address this scripture. Until then, we can only assume you are opposing Jesus because you oppose us for believing what he said.‘For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form’….please just read that with no outside influence or preconceived notions…(if you can)..
t8 – I was actually corresponding with terraricca…you have this habit of over-riding all my discussions with other people…
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I know how you explain all these verses away to mean something other than what we would naturally understand and receive in our hearts from the Holy Spirit..your tactics are so obvious – you don’t fool me one bit..! It is what all cults do to justify their false teachings..!! they twist the Scriptures round from what they so obviously say, to mean something completely meaningless, but something that no longer opposes their own theological lies….!!!
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He that refuseth instruction despiseth his own soul: but he that heareth reproof getteth understanding. – Proverbs 15:32That is not the way ,David,if you read the scriptures you read the whole scriptures first before you can open your lips to say any thing,if you do it must be a question not a explanation,so your question on Isa 9 and rev 1:8 can be explain if you read the scriptures with the question in your mind,in 53 years I now can not count how many times I have read it,but as a good guess 40 about,some books as many times as 100 times,and always ask at almost every verse ,why,how,when who,where ,I only start to teach about 4years ago,because truth was more important to me than arguing on things I did not understand plainly,you see I came to the conclusion that everything is written in the scriptures and if you do not understand some thing it is because you do not have the knowledge of it. And so you have to read the scriptures again to improve your understanding,that God gives to those that love him ,and so seek him and his wisdom, simple question first :why do you think God has made his words written ??? Was it God that made it either prophetic ,poetic,literal,??? Or was it the man with the pen,? If it was God why ??
If it was God how can you prove it ? For whom was it written ?? How come so many bibles but so little true interest in it from the owners of bibles ?? What are the fundamental truths in the scriptures ,you know those we can not change and will never change,forever,yes t8 – am also waiting for an answer – what translation of John 1:1 do you accept (wording please)…
I will gladly answer your question. But you have two outstanding questions to answer and if you can answer me, then I think it fair and I will answer you.
1) You say I am an Arian for believing in Jesus words “eternal life is this, to know the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom he has sent”. And you say I am Arian because I believe as Paul instructed that “for us, there is one God the Father, and one Lord, the Lord Jesus Christ”. So the question is, how exactly is this Arian? Why am I under his influence as you say. What exactly is Arius’s doctrine that I am preaching?
2) How is this verse meant to be read. You say that when we are born-again, that we are then able to read the true meaning of scripture. While I agree with that statement, you also deny that the Father is the only true God as Jesus said. So my question was this:
How exactly are we suppose to read these words of Jesus when he said, “this is eternal life, that we may know the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom he has sent? There are three things here.
a) Eternal life
b) only true God
c) And Jesus Christ.
Please cover the three points and explain how they are suppose to be read and what these words really mean. This is a fair question.Hay DavidL, how about answering my questions….!.?
Without the correct translation, just as john 1:1 appears in the KJ, tell me how that proves a trinity?
Paul – who said John 1:1 proved the Trinity..?
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What I said from the start is that everyone who denies the Trinity has to change John 1:1..and re-interpret a whole host of other Scriptures (like t8 has done) to fit their man-made doctrine..
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If KJV is incorrect then why can’t you say which translation you actually prescribe to…?Anastas – I’m not sure how you can read, ‘the Word was God’, ‘I and the Father are One’, ‘before Abraham was, I Am’ etc. and not see Jesus equal with the Father…(unless influenced by man’s theology)…!
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The Deity of Christ is not some theological dogma reserved for Catholics, nor a revelation of secrets (as you say), but rather GOD WITH US is THE gloriously progressive vision that increases in manifest intensity throughout the whole volume of Scripture..!
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Genesis 1:1 “In the beginning GOD..”
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John 1:2 “He was with God in the beginning.”
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Revelation 1:8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” declares the Lord God, “the One who is, who was, and who is coming, the Almighty.”
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Revelation 21:6,7 “Then He said to me, ‘It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost. He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son.”David – what man made doctrine am I coming up with and why do I need to change john 1:1.
Answer a few questions for me please…..
1. Is the trinity doctrine man made?
2. Did it not come out of the council of nicea?
3. Was the council of nicea a council of men, a council chaired by men, and decisions derived by men?
4. What other scriptures am I changing?
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You keep referring to john 1:1, if it is not to support your trinty, what are you referring to it for?DavidL, your view of John 1:1 and a few other scriptures are in direct contradiction with the rest of scripture. It is you who has to wrestle with this. Whereas, when you believe rightly that there is one true God the Father, and Jesus is the one who God made Lord and messiah, then there are no contradictions.
David
We know that every bible manuscript as been touched by men to include their own views ,based on their lack of good understanding of the language of old,they took some liberties to make some of the scriptures lean toward their own church,this is why it takes good knowledge in the scriptures to be able to see which is true to God words,and purpose,
This will show the true way to the true understanding of his written word,As for the trinity ,their is no such a word or hint to it, scriptures is very direct and clear :God his one God,and God his alone God,and Christ is the son of God and so God the father his The God of the son,
This alone would make you never believe in the trinity, So all becomes men made story about the trinity, of cause you can make some verses to lean by twisting the truth a bit but this would brake the previous scriptures that says the opposite , so if you believe it that the trinity is true that would make you a declared opposer to God’s word,if you can live with that s fine to me ,I will certainly not do that ,but we all are free to chose our ways ,and pay the prize for that choice,The talk to try to justify what is false ,as to be done with the scriptures ,and for what is truth would be the same. Principal, but unless you give full power to the written scriptures and believe them ,you are living in a limbo ,not knowing we’re you are going or what you believe to be true,or you may not care for any of it ,and just see which is more of an interest to you,in this action you would have sold your soul to the devil,
@ DavidL,
You said: “The Deity of Christ is not some theological dogma reserved for Catholics,”
The Catholic Faith is this: “The Trinity Doctrine”. Yet you take some comfort in that other denominations hold the Trinity Doctrine too. Well the answer is that the Catholic Church had it first. The Catholic Trinity that is, and it is the one you believe word for word. It took root during the Dark Ages at the height of her power and when scripture was denied and doctrine came from this establishment. The world has been drunk ever since and even before that because it is an ancient doctrine.
It is worth noting that Babylon is the Mother of Harlots. Thus, she probably has more than a few daughters or offspring. So yes, the RCC is not the only one under that influence as you say, I mean you admit you are too, and there are heaps of denominations built on that foundation.Paul – first you use the word ‘prove’ – then the word ‘support’…
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John’s revelation of Christ ‘proves’ His Deity…which directly ‘supports’ the Trinity..
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If you lay aside the Greek grammar argument for a minute and remember that John was Jewish (not Greek)…it becomes apparent that not only is the conclusion of that argument foreign to Jewish thought, but that Johns first utterance directs our attention immediately to Genesis 1:1 and places Christ (as the Word of God) here in the first four words of the Torah – with God…as God..!
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This revelation confirms the words of David, Isaiah, Thomas, Paul etc.
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So the Deity of the Son is revealed in the first verse of Scripture, and the Trinity in the second…”And the earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the SPIRIT of God moved upon the face of the waters.”
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This of course is denied by those who see the Trinity as just a doctrine of the Catholic Church..but maybe it is good to realize that not everything the Catholic church believes is false – as they do acknowledge the Virgin birth, and the Resurrection of Christ etc..!
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