Revelation 2:23

Participant

Hi Tim2,
Are you still surprised that the one anointed without measure
with the powers and sbilities and nature of God
does amazing things by that anointing?

June 2, 2007 at 4:34 am#54408

Participant

1 Corinthians 12:7:

“For to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the commong good. For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit; and to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, and to another effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another kinds of tongues, and to another interpretation of tongues.”

Sorry, Nick, I don't see any “search the hearts and minds” or “recompense according to your deeds” anointing.

June 2, 2007 at 4:45 am#54410

Proclaimer

Participant

To Tim2.

Quote (Tim2 @ June 03 2007,10:59)

Jesus is explicitly declaring Himself to be YHWH here.

No he is not.

Yeshua is the visible representation of the invisible God.

God works primarily through his only begotten.
Jesus also said that he only does that which he sees his Father doing and says what his Father says.

You should get with the New Testament. It is a better covenant.
Going back the Old Testament only, means Christ is a bigger mystery. In the new, we have more revelation of God's son and therefore we should embrace that.

The invisible God who is spirit works through his visible son who is in bodily form.

It's not really hard to understand, but brainwashed people do struggle with simple concepts. I am not trying to be nasty, I am just saying it as it is.

June 2, 2007 at 6:19 am#54416

Participant

Quote (Tim2 @ June 02 2007,16:34)

1 Corinthians 12:7:

Sorry, Nick, I don't see any “search the hearts and minds” or “recompense according to your deeds” anointing.

Hi Tim2,
Have you not known the distinguishing of spirits, the word of knowledge, the doing of miracles among your brethren?
Christ said we would do even greater things than he did but that does not make us God either.
If you do not know the powers of God then you need to come out of her into the body of Christ.

June 2, 2007 at 6:58 am#54419

Participant

How many are there that search the hearts and minds? One or two? You're telling me that someone besides YHWH searches the hearts and minds? You kidding me? Someone besides YHWH will recompense everyone according their deeds?

Jesus didn't say, “I've been anointed to search the hearts and minds.” He says, “I am He who searches the minds and hearts.”

Quote

Jesus also said that he only does that which he sees his Father doing and says what his Father says.

And this contradicts His Deity how? You're telling me that someone who isn't God looks at what the Father is doing and does it? Are you serious?

Just read Revelation 2:23 and compare it with Jeremiah 17:10. They say the same thing. YHWH wouldn't let someone else apply that verse to himself.

This verse really should end the debate right now. Jesus is God. Bow the knee.

Tim

June 2, 2007 at 8:25 am#54422

Participant

Hi Tim2,
Guess what. They are now as one. God in us in Christ in God.

June 2, 2007 at 1:24 pm#54432

Participant

Hi Tim2:

Thanks for calling our attention to this scripture. Jesus is the head of the church and so he has the authority to Judge, but also, it may give us the answer about the Holy Spirit making intercession not praying to God but letting Jesus know what is in a person's heart so that he can pray to God for the person. I am not sure about this and so I will look up the scripture and paste in this response.
Rev.2:23
And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

You say in your interpretation of the Rev. 2:23 that he searches the kidneys which is one of the definitions in Strong's below, but I believe that it implies “used of the inmost thoughts, feelings, purposes, of the soul” what do you think?

Strong's Number: 3510 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
nefrov߼/FONT> of uncertain affinity
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Nephros 4:911,630
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
nef-ros' Noun Masculine

Definition
a kidney kidneys, loins
used of the inmost thoughts, feelings, purposes, of the soul

Rom. 8:26
Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
8:27
And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

And so, it appears that Jesus is the one who knows the mind of the Spirit and “makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God”.

God Bless

June 2, 2007 at 5:45 pm#54444

Participant

I agree, kidneys means “used of the inmost thoughts, feelings, purposes, of the soul.” I used the literal translation (according to my NASB), to show that it says the exact same thing, kidneys, as the Old Testament verses I quoted.

Thanks for pointing out Romans 8:26-27. I think your reading is reasonable, but the most direct reading is that “He who searches the hearts and minds” is Paul's title for God (see below), and He who intercedes for the saints is the Spirit, because that's what Paul says in the previous verse. But of course we know from Revelation 2:23 that Jesus searches the hearts, and we know from 1 John 2:1 that Jesus is also our Intercessor/Advocate with the Father, so your reading is also valid in my view. But I think, if anything, this reinforces that Jesus is God.

My Bible cross-references it with these other verses:

1 Samuel 16:7 -“YHWH looks at the heart.”
Psalm 139:1f -“O YHWH, You have searched me and known me … You understand my thought from afar … Even before there is a word on my tongue, behold, O YHWH, You know it all.”
Luke 16:15 -“God knows your hearts …”
Acts 1:24 -“And they prayed and said, “You, Lord, who knows the hearts of all men…”

I think the overwhelming testimony of the Bible is that it is YHWH alone who searches the hearts and minds and therefore that “He who searches the hearts” is a title for YHWH. Jesus is YHWH.

Tim

June 2, 2007 at 6:09 pm#54446

Participant

Quote (Tim2 @ June 03 2007,05:45)

My Bible cross-references it with these other verses:

I think the overwhelming testimony of the Bible is that it is YHWH alone who searches the hearts and minds and therefore that “He who searches the hearts” is a title for YHWH. Jesus is YHWH.

Tim

No Tim2:

I disagree with your conclusion. Jesus is God's Son and His Christ. He is not YHWH as you indicate.

By the Spirit God does search our hearts, and has revealed what was there to Jesus so that he could make intercession for the Saints according to the will of God.

Joh 5:30
I can of mine own self do nothing *: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

Ac 17:31
Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

1 Peter 4:16
Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.
4:17
For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
4:18
And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear ?
4:19
Wherefore * * let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

God Bless

June 2, 2007 at 7:10 pm#54448

Participant

94,

So how many are there that search the hearts and minds? Someone besides YHWH does this? Are you serious?

Quote

By the Spirit God does search our hearts, and has revealed what was there to Jesus so that he could make intercession for the Saints according to the will of God.

That's not what Romans 8:27 says. It says “He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.” The “because” applies to “knowing the mind of the Spirit.” The “He who searches the hearts” isn't given a reason because it's obviously a title for God, as it is in the entire rest of the Bible.

Anyway, Revelation 2:23 is clear. Jesus is He who searches the hearts and minds and who will recompense everyone according to their deeds. YHWH says the same thing in Jeremiah 17:10. There's nothing hidden or unclear here. Jesus is God. Worship Him.

Tim

June 2, 2007 at 7:54 pm#54449

Participant

Quote (Tim2 @ June 03 2007,07:10)

94,

So how many are there that search the hearts and minds? Someone besides YHWH does this? Are you serious?

Quote

By the Spirit God does search our hearts, and has revealed what was there to Jesus so that he could make intercession for the Saints according to the will of God.

Tim

No Tim2:

Jesus knows what the Sprit of God reveals to him. He is not God in the sense that you are trying to say. He is a man and prays to the Father just as you and I pray to the Father.

2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

June 2, 2007 at 9:59 pm#54458

Participant

Hi Tim2,
You carefully craft and demand obedience to doctrines formed by accreting scriptures and not by submitting to the Word and learning from it yourself.
Wake up, you are yet in no position to teach.

June 3, 2007 at 5:21 am#54474

Participant

Quote

Jesus knows what the Sprit of God reveals to him.

Where does it say this? Romans 8:27 doesn't say this. And Jesus doesn't take of the Spirit, the Spirit takes of Him. John 16:14. You think Jesus is only a man, right 94? So how is it that the Spirit takes of a mere man?

Quote

He is not God in the sense that you are trying to say.

There isn't a “sense” in which someone can be God. Jesus either is God or isn't God. God is He Who searches the hearts and minds. This is explicit in Jeremiah 17:10 and all of the other verses I posted on this thread. There's no doubt or ambiguity on this issue. The Bible is perfectly clear. He Who searches the hearts and minds is God. And Jesus is He Who searches the hearts and minds. Why do you refuse to believe? Why does it trouble you so much to believe that Jesus is God?

Tim

June 3, 2007 at 6:39 am#54485

Participant

Hi Tim2,
What of the God who was with God in the beginning?

June 3, 2007 at 2:20 pm#54487

Participant

Quote (Tim2 @ June 03 2007,17:21)

Quote

Jesus knows what the Sprit of God reveals to him.

Quote

He is not God in the sense that you are trying to say.

Tim

Hi Tim2:

8:27
And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

The above scripture states that Jesus knows the mind of the Spirit. In other Words, he know what God is revealing to him something that the person is need of that the person does not know that he needs and therefore can't ask himself so that Jesus can pray to God asking for the need in his behalf.

Also, in his ministry here on earth the Holy Spirit revealed many things to Jesus and he says:

Joh 5:19
Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can * do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever * * he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

And also it is the Holy Spirit that will lead us to all truth if we have been born again and have the Holy Spirit indwelling us, but if you don't have the Holy Spirit, you will not understand the scriptures.

John 16:13
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

I believe that the following scriptures are easily understood and need not explanation, but if you don't understand this, please let me know relatative to in what sense “Jesus is God”.

1:1
God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
1:2
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
1:3 WHO BEING THE BRIGHTNESS OF HIS GLORY, AND THE EXPRESS IMAGE OF HIS PERSON, AND UPHOLDING ALL THINGS BY THE WORD OF HIS POWER, when he had * by himself purged * our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

God Bless

June 3, 2007 at 11:01 pm#54522

Participant

Hi Tim2,
You say following your progression of greek LOGIC.

“I think the overwhelming testimony of the Bible is that it is YHWH alone who searches the hearts and minds and therefore that “He who searches the hearts” is a title for YHWH. Jesus is YHWH.”

I am glad you just think this because Jesus is not his own father.

June 4, 2007 at 7:42 pm#54618

Participant

94,

“He who searches the hearts and minds” is a Biblical title for God. Do you agree? So if Paul uses this of Jesus in Romans 8:27, then it means Jesus is God.

But you are reading Romans 8:26-27 in a deliberate attempt to detract from the omniscience of Jesus, when Jesus isn't even mentioned in the passage. Why don't you confess along with the disciples, “Lord, you know all things”? John 16:30. So again, Jesus isn't mentioned in Romans 8:26-27 but you assume it's Him, He who searches the hearts is a consistent Biblical title for God, the Intercessor described in the passage is the Holy Spirit, and “because” is given to show the mind of the Spirit being known by God because of the Spirit's intercession for the saints. I have no idea how this detracts from Revelation 2:23.

And you still haven't answered John 16:14. You assert that Romans 8:26-27 shows that Jesus is dependent on the Spirit for knowledge, even though it doesn't say that, but you won't answer a direct Scripture showing in fact that the opposite is true.

John 16:14 and Romans 8:27 together show that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit know each other's minds perfectly and share all things completely. How does this detract from their Godhead?

Hebrews 1 is a perfectly clear statement that Jesus is God. You think the Brightness of God's glory isn't God? So the Brightness is something created? It becomes something less than God when it is generated from God? And you think the Brightness didn't even exist until Jesus was born 2000 years ago? The Brightness was foreordained? God didn't always have Brightness?

And the express image of God's person, that is generated from the Father as His Brightness, isn't God? So in what respect is it lacking, if it isn't God?

And someone other than God upholds all things by the Word of His Power? Nonsense.

Tim

June 4, 2007 at 8:23 pm#54622