Reincarnation vs the truth.

[Stu]

Looking back over three years ago:

Quote

That same friend that i spoke of that believed in reincarnation and evolution and stuff and didn't know for sure what to REALLY believe in and stuff like that. He told me he got saved just the other day. Isn't that great?

This is exactly the kind of phrase you would expect to hear from someone raised by christian fundamentalist parents who did not allow a television or newspapers in the house, and got all their ‘news’ from the pastor. ‘Reincarnation and evolution’ go together with all the other evil ‘stuff’.

I only read here because I was wondering why it was posted under 'Creation & Science'. I still am.

Stuart

[NickHassan]

Hi Stu,
Don't you get a crick in your neck peering down contemptuously from your ivory tower?

[Cato]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 02 2008,05:33)

Hi cato, Carnal matters are one's relating to bodies. Incarnation is a being beginning to occupy another being's body. Reincarnation then is to pass from one such vessel to another which only demons do. Man is an intergral being of body, soul and spirit. He does not exist before becoming conceived. Such thoughts are probably gnostic. So reincarnation has nothing to do with passing from a spiritual plane to the physical.

Nick,
I believe you are confusing possesion or what occultists might term obsession with incarnation, which is simply a spirit coming into flesh or physical manifestation.  It does not imply taking over another's occupied vessel.

The idea in most forms of reincarnation is that spirits (human spirits for that matter) are born again into new bodies after death, ie. they come back as babies and start new lives, not taking over other bodies.

Now you may not think this is possible but lets drop the false connection with demonic possesion which is all together different.

Now pre-existence is a related topic, if you do not believe such, then reincarnation makes little sense, but if pre-existence is correct then reincarnation is a possibility.

I take it that you believe a soul is created for the first time, at the moment a sperm hits egg or perhaps when a baby first separates from his mother.  Considering the vastly differing circumstances of this birth and the one shot this new soul has at eternal reward or eternal punishment (or oblivion depending on your view) then this system has some rather gross inequities which look more like the random chance of the athiest then an omnisciently designed and created universe.l

[NickHassan]

Hi cato,
Such strange gnostic ideas such as reincarnation, do not find any place in scripture.
We do not teach what is intellectually possible to the foolish mind of man but what is revealed.

[Stu]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 03 2008,09:17)

Hi cato, Such strange gnostic ideas such as reincarnation, do not find any place in scripture. We do not teach what is intellectually possible to the foolish mind of man but what is revealed.

You teach what is revealed to the foolish mind of man?
Is it only the foolish that are duped by 'revelation'?

Stuart

[Stu]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 02 2008,20:10)

Hi Stu, Don't you get a crick in your neck peering down contemptuously from your ivory tower?

I was simply making an observation based on the fact that many fundamentalist families do indeed block conventional sources of information and get their news from preachers. The post I quoted falls right into line with that. Any contempt I might show is insignificant compared to the contempt such parents show for the intellectual development of their children.

I don't know where the ivory tower comes into it. Please explain?

Stuart

[NickHassan]

Hi Stu,
The theme of your words seems always to be of your own supposed intellectual superiority.

[Stu]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 03 2008,19:42)

Hi Stu, The theme of your words seems always to be of your own supposed intellectual superiority.

Well I can only write as I do. It would be false of me to pretend to be someone else. If you want to make judgements about me as a person that's your prerogative but I am more interested in ideas than personalities, as per the spirit of the rules of this forum.

Stuart

[NickHassan]

Hi Stu,
So would we like to see better dialogue.

[Cato]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 03 2008,09:17)

Hi cato, Such strange gnostic ideas such as reincarnation, do not find any place in scripture. We do not teach what is intellectually possible to the foolish mind of man but what is revealed.

Nick,

While I do not doubt that many have received revelations from the almighty the problem is that this is between them and God, it is only revelation to that person.  To Quote Thomas Payne from the Age of Reason, “His account of it to another is not revelation; and whoever puts faith in that account, puts it in the man from whom the account comes; and that man may have been deceived, or may have dreamed it; or he may be an impostor and may lie. There is no possible criterion whereby to judge of the truth of what he tells; for even the morality of it would be no proof of revelation. In all such cases, the proper answer should be, When it is revealed to me, I will believe it to be revelation; but it is not and cannot be incumbent upon me to believe it to be revelation before; neither is it proper that I should take the word of man as the word of God, and put man in the place of God.”

That sums up why I have a healthy scepticism of such, and why I believe in using our God given intellect and reason to examin such.  Look at your own signature to “test all things”.  I believe that the Creator of a Universe that runs on laws and order and dare I say logic, would set up a system for dispensing souls that would be likewise.

[NickHassan]

Hi cato,
Christ told us that the Spirit does not speak of His own initiative but reminds us of what is written and reveals the future from it.

Thus new ideas can be tested against what is written.
No reincarnation in what is written.
Out she goes.

[Cato]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 04 2008,07:55)

Hi cato, Christ told us that the Spirit does not speak of His own initiative but reminds us of what is written and reveals the future from it. Thus new ideas can be tested against what is written. No reincarnation in what is written. Out she goes.

Nick,
So your entire basis of truth and what should be is based on what you believe is God's word, as revealed to a variety of authors, interpreted by same through their own limited human intellect, copied by a variety of others, translated differently in various languages, to be given to a group of church leaders who then go through these various books, scripts, songs, poems, etc., and determine which are holy, semi-holy or not according to their view of the faith at the time.

Faith is good, but that to me is blind faith the same as I would hear from most Muslims when they justify all their views based on what is in the Koran or Scientologists and the writings of L. Ron Hubbard.  I believe God gave each of us a mind and conscience that should also be involved in seeking truth not just a reliance on religious doctrine.  I am not saying to ignore scripture but to recognize that it may not all be the unalterable word of God, and like everything else needs to be looked at with mind and heart both.

[NickHassan]

Hi cato,
I know where truth is to be found.
All other so called truths can be tested against it.

Jn6
68Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

69And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.

[Samuel]

Reincarnation…

lawl

Thats about as good as that one that guy told that time about pigs that could fly!

[Stu]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 09 2008,05:03)

Hi cato, I know where truth is to be found. All other so called truths can be tested against it. Jn6 68Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. 69And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.

Your scriptural 'truth' has no provinence unless you can tell us how it is verified. You repeatedly refuse to say how. Your bluff is showing again. Do you hear voices? How do you interpret the wind you feel? Why do you need faith if all these naturally sensed things tell you to read this miserable book?

Stuart

[NickHassan]

Hi Stu,
Taste and see that the Lord is good.
Those who are outside of Christ cannot understand.

[kejonn]

And it seems that those inside Christ can never explain. Oh the irony.

[NickHassan]

Hi KJ,
Quite so.
The higher realms are beyond our complete understanding.

2 Corinthians 12:2
I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows.

[kejonn]

This is an odd progression of posts, Nick.

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 31 2008,13:32)

Hi Stu, Taste and see that the Lord is good. Those who are outside of Christ cannot understand.

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 31 2008,16:04)

Hi KJ, Quite so. The higher realms are beyond our complete understanding. 2 Corinthians 12:2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows.

So are you saying that nobody understands. What advantage do you have then?

[NickHassan]

Hi Kj,
Who said we have all knowledge now?
We will though when our Master returns

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