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Hi To all
Rome Divided
And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters’ clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay. And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.” Daniel 2:41-42
Rome, before its division into ten kingdoms, lost that iron vigor which it possessed to a superlative degree during the first centuries of its career. Luxury, with its accompanying effeminacy and degeneracy, the destroyer of nations as well as of individuals, began to corrode and weaken its iron sinews, and thus prepared the way for its disintegration into ten kingdoms.
Iron and Clay
In this mixture of metal and mud we see a very unnatural situation, the strength of the iron is undermined by the brittleness of clay and the fact that they do not even stick together makes it even worse. But there is a deeper meaning in this symbol and we learn much by looking into it.
Iron is used in the Bible as a symbol of ruling power. (see: Psalms 2:9; Revelation 2:27) It stands for Civil or State power. Clay is used in a figurative way in describing God’s people or church. Isaiah 64:8; “But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.” (Also see: Jeremiah 18:1-6)
But here we do not see just clay; we are told it is miry or dirty clay. Miry clay denotes filthy or corrupted churches.
The combination of the iron and miry clay represents the mingling of State-craft and Priest-craft which is an abomination to God. The feet come into history close to the time of the beginning of the Papal supremacy of the 1260 years where the church ruled the secular governments and used them for her own corrupt ends.
The ten toes are also of this same material and our attention is called to them by the explicit mention of them in the prophecy. The Roman kingdom was finally divided into ten parts. However the ten toes of the image do not represent the ten divisions of the Roman Empire. We know this because in the division of the Roman Empire, three kingdoms were removed leaving only seven. This we do not see in the ten toes. We will address them later.The Ten Toes
The image of Daniel 2 is exactly parallel with the four beasts in the vision of Daniel 7. The fourth beast represents the same kingdom as do the iron legs of the image. The ten horns of the beast correspond naturally to the ten divisions of the Roman Empire. These horns are plainly declared to be ten kings (or kingdoms) which should arise, but here we are also told that 3 would be uprooted. It is only when we look to Revelation 17 that we find further information regarding the final ten toes on the image and what they stand for.
Daniel and Revelation are actually one prophetic book with the first part having been given by Christ to Daniel and the second part having been given by Christ to John on Patmos. Any attempts to truly understand these prophetic books separately will yield poor results. In Revelation 17 we see a beast with seven heads and ten horns. The seven heads correspond with the seven kingdoms of the earth and the ten horns here are described: “And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.” Revelation 17:12
At the end of time there will be a confederacy of ruling powers that will have one mind and will give their power to the Beast for a short time. These correspond with the ten toes on the image of Daniel 2. They are not ten kingdoms, but one kingdom with ten kings. We will learn more of this later.
In Daniel’s interpretation of the image he uses the words “king” and “kingdom” interchangeably meaning the same thing. In verse 44 he says that “in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom.” This shows that at the time the kingdom of God is set up, there will exist this plurality of confederated kings acting as one kingdom and giving their power to the Beast.
The Ten Kingdoms
This division of the Roman Empire was accomplished between AD 351 and 476, a hundred and twenty-five years, from about the middle of the fourth century to the last quarter of the fifth. The map of the Roman Empire during that time underwent many sudden and violent changes, and the paths of hostile nations charging upon its territory, crossed and recrossed each other in a labyrinth of confusion. But all historians agree in this, that out of the territory of Western Rome, ten separate kingdoms were ultimately established as follows: Huns, Ostrogoths, Visigoths, Franks, Vandals, Suevi, Burgundians, Heruli, Anglo-Saxons, and Lombards. The connection between these and some of the modern nations of Europe, is still traceable in the names.
“And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.” Daniel 2:43
With Rome, fell the last of the world’s universal empires. No other world kingdom was to succeed it, as it had the three which went before it. It was to continue until the kingdom of the stone smote it, upon its feet; broke them in pieces, and scattered them as the wind does ‘the chaff of the summer threshing-floor.’ Yet, through all this time, a portion of its strength was to remain. And so the prophet says, ‘And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.’
Time and again men have dreamed of rearing on these dominions one mighty kingdom. Charlemagne tried it; Charles V tried it; Louis XIV tried it; Napoleon tried it; Hitler tried it; and none of them succeeded. A single verse of prophecy was stronger than all their hosts. ‘This shall not be,’ says the word of God. ‘This has not been,’ replies the book of history.
But then, another plan remains. If force cannot avail, diplomacy and reasons of state may. And so the prophecy foreshadows this when it says, ‘They shall mingle themselves with the seed of men’, i.e., marriages shall be formed, in hope thus to consolidate their power, and in the end, to unite these divided kingdoms into one. To avert future conflicts, benevolent rulers resorted to the expedient of intermarriage to ensure peace, until by the opening of the twentieth century it was asserted that every ranking hereditary ruler of Europe was related to the British royal family. And did this device succeed? No! World War I showed the futility of these attempts. The prophet answers: ‘They shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.’
Alliances may come, and it may appear that the iron and miry clay of the feet and toes of the great image have finally fused, but God said, “They shall not cleave one to another.” It may seem that old animosities have disappeared, but “the Scripture cannot be broken.” John 10:35.
To be continued if God permît….
Adam……problem is you teacher did not recognize the FIFTH KINGDOM , but runs it into the forth kingdom of Iron, no scripture shows that. It shows the forth OF IRON, as the Roman Empire, and the FIFTH KINGDOM AS THE ONE THAT IS “MIXED” with “IRON AND CLAY” , THAT IS THE KINGDOM THE ROCK STRUCK, IT DID NOT STRIKE THE LEGS, BUT THE FEET, All the Kingdoms are designated as parts of a “SINGLE” BODY, …..1.. head, 2.. arms and chest, 3…..belly and thighs , 4……legs, 5…….feet.
False teachers run 4 and 5 together, BECAUSE THEY CAN’T GET THE TIMELINE RIGHT SO they run the forth and fifth kingdoms together , but they are not at all, the same parts of a Body, nor are they part of the proceeding kingdom they proceed forth from them either. Legs and feet are completely different parts of a body. Common sense tells us that
The false teaching you are using does not at all line up with what Daniel said or meant nor what is write in Rev 17 either.
If you will only listen to what I am telling you you will see it all lines up perfectly. Daniel 2 and Rev 17 make perfect sense to them that have eyes to see. IMO
Peace and love to you and yours………gene
To all
There are actually FOUR GREAT EARTH KINGDOMS BECAUSE DANIEL 2 TALKS ABOUT FOUR METALS
DANIEL 7 OF FOUR BEASTS.
OK
IN REVELATION 13 AND 17 THERE IS THE BEAST WITH 7 HEADS BUTTHE FOUR GREAT EARTH KINGDOMSARE THE SAME
1) BABYLON
2) MEDO PERSIA
3) GREECE
4) ROME A (pagan)
5) Rome b (papal-538-1798)
6) Rome at the time of the mortal wound (Rev. 13: 3) TIME OF THE 10 Horns which are no longer connected with the fifth Head (Papacy)
7) Rome when her wound is healing with the help of the second beast of Rev. 13: 11-18) THIS IS NOW BROTHERS AND SISTERSEIGHTH KING (Revelation 17:11) HE IS ONE OF THE SEVEN (V.11) PAPACY RESTORED FOR A SHORT TIME (Rev. 17:12)
The 10 horns are connected again to the eighth king which is one of the 7 (Papacy) Revelation 17: 12-14)Adam……problem is you teacher did not recognize the FIFTH KINGDOM , but runs it into the forth kingdom of Iron, no scripture shows that. It shows the forth OF IRON, as the Roman Empire, and the FIFTH KINGDOM AS THE ONE THAT IS “MIXED” with “IRON AND CLAY” , THAT IS THE KINGDOM THE ROCK STRUCK, IT DID NOT STRIKE THE LEGS, BUT THE FEET, All the Kingdoms are designated as parts of a “SINGLE” BODY, …..1.. head, 2.. arms and chest, 3…..belly and thighs , 4……legs, 5…….feet.
False teachers run 4 and 5 together, BECAUSE THEY CAN’T GET THE TIMELINE RIGHT SO they run the forth and fifth kingdoms together , but they are not at all, the same parts of a Body, nor are they part of the proceeding kingdom they proceed forth from them either. Legs and feet are completely different parts of a body. Common sense tells us that..
Hi brother Gene, it’s not common sense that works here we have to apply logics of what the scriptures tell us. Please read the verses in Dan 2 and 7 carefully. No where it talks about Five kingdoms. Here are the verses for your kind reference;
Dan 2:
36 “This was the dream; now we will tell the king its interpretation. 37 You, O king, the king of kings—to whom the God of heaven has given the kingdom, the power, the might, and the glory, 38 into whose hand he has given human beings, wherever they live, the wild animals of the field, and the birds of the air, and whom he has established as ruler over them all—you are the head of gold. 39 After you shall arise another kingdom inferior to yours, and yet a third kingdom of bronze, which shall rule over the whole earth. 40 And there shall be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron; just as iron crushes and smashes everything, it shall crush and shatter all these. 41 As you saw the feet and toes partly of potter’s clay and partly of iron, it shall be a divided kingdom; but some of the strength of iron shall be in it, as you saw the iron mixed with the clay. 42 As the toes of the feet were part iron and part clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong and partly brittle. 43 As you saw the iron mixed with clay, so will they mix with one another in marriage, but they will not hold together, just as iron does not mix with clay. 44 And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, nor shall this kingdom be left to another people. It shall crush all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand forever; 45 just as you saw that a stone was cut from the mountain not by hands, and that it crushed the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold. The great God has informed the king what shall be hereafter. The dream is certain, and its interpretation trustworthy.”
Please read the highlighted portions where it talks about only Four kingdoms and not Five. So all those Christian interpretations are null and void here.
Dan 7:
2 I, Daniel, saw in my vision by night the four winds of heaven stirring up the great sea, 3 and four great beasts came up out of the sea, different from one another. 4 The first was like a lion and had eagles’ wings. Then, as I watched, its wings were plucked off, and it was lifted up from the ground and made to stand on two feet like a human being; and a human mind was given to it. 5 Another beast appeared, a second one, that looked like a bear. It was raised up on one side, had three tusks in its mouth among its teeth and was told, “Arise, devour many bodies!” 6 After this, as I watched, another appeared, like a leopard. The beast had four wings of a bird on its back and four heads; and dominion was given to it. 7 After this I saw in the visions by night a fourth beast, terrifying and dreadful and exceedingly strong. It had great iron teeth and was devouring, breaking in pieces, and stamping what was left with its feet. It was different from all the beasts that preceded it, and it had ten horns.
Here also only Four beasts… please read further…
Dan 7:
17 “As for these four great beasts, four kings shall arise out of the earth. 18 But the holy ones of the Most High shall receive the kingdom and possess the kingdom forever—forever and ever.”
19 Then I desired to know the truth concerning the fourth beast, which was different from all the rest, exceedingly terrifying, with its teeth of iron and claws of bronze, and which devoured and broke in pieces, and stamped what was left with its feet; 20 and concerning the ten horns that were on its head, and concerning the other horn, which came up and to make room for which three of them fell out—the horn that had eyes and a mouth that spoke arrogantly, and that seemed greater than the others. 21 As I looked, this horn made war with the holy ones and was prevailing over them, 22 until the Ancient One came; then judgment was given for the holy ones of the Most High, and the time arrived when the holy ones gained possession of the kingdom.
So there is nothing in these verses about the so called Fifth kingdom. Please drop this idea of Five kingdoms from your arguments as this is not supported in the Book of Daniel.
Thanks and peace to you…..Adam
Adam……..You simply are not understanding when Daniel was given that vision, of the future he was already in the First kingdom, and was talking about the four more kingdoms to come afterwards. There were four “more” that would arise “after” the one he was “in” .
Also go back and count the kingdom mentioned that you didn’t highlight, Daniel 45…..“just as you saw, a stone was cut from the mountain not by hand and it, crushed the IRON, the BRONZ, the CLAY, the SILVER, and the GOLD. These are the FIVE ” KINGDOMS”
NOW COUNT THEM UP , and you will get FIVE, not four, and what would be the next kingdom to be established after theses were crushed, the SIXTH world ruling KINGDOM of Jesus Christ and the Saint’s. Simple as that. And then what kingdom comes after the sixth , the SEVENTH world ruling kingdom , that was the kingdom that John in Rev 17 , said did not ” yet” exist or was to come, so that places him speaking from the end of the SIXTH kingdom of Jesus Christ and the Saint’s
Again, your not counting the kingdom that Daniel was in at the time he prophesied the Four ‘”MORE”, to come.
ADAM it is simple and it fits exactly with what is written in REV 17. WHY do you think Revelations say this is the mind that has wisdom, it’s because you have to understand you can’t understand what it it saying unless you get the timeline right. John was transported by the SPIRIT into the day of the lord, right at the end of the Sixth Kingdom of Jesus and the Saint’s, and just before the return of GOD ALMIGHTY TO THIS EARTH. AND THE GREAT BATTLE OF ARMAGEDDON TAKE PLACE.
TRUST ME IT ALL FITS IF YOU CAN GET THE TIMELINE RIGHT, LIKE A HAND IN A GLOVE BROTHER.
Peace and love to you and yours………gene
Again, your not counting the kingdom that Daniel was in at the time he prophesied the Four ‘”MORE”, to come.
ADAM it is simple and it fits exactly with what is written in REV 17. WHY do you think Revelations say this is the mind that has wisdom, it’s because you have to understand you can’t understand what it it saying unless you get the timeline right. John was transported by the SPIRIT into the day of the lord, right at the end of the Sixth Kingdom of Jesus and the Saint’s, and just before the return of GOD ALMIGHTY TO THIS EARTH. AND THE GREAT BATTLE OF ARMAGEDDON TAKE PLACE.
Hi brother Gene, thanks again for your reply to my post. I think you need to read the texts of Dan 2 & 7 properly. There is no mention of Five any where in these two chapters. In fact the Feet and the toe are one and the same Fourth Kingdom made of iron and clay. Dan 2:
37 You, O king, the king of kings—to whom the God of heaven has given the kingdom, the power, the might, and the glory, 38 into whose hand he has given human beings, wherever they live, the wild animals of the field, and the birds of the air, and whom he has established as ruler over them all—you are the head of gold. 39 After you shall arise another kingdom inferior to yours, and yet a third kingdom of bronze, which shall rule over the whole earth. 40 And there shall be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron; just as iron crushes and smashes everything, it shall crush and shatter all these. 41 As you saw the feet and toes partly of potter’s clay and partly of iron, it shall be a divided kingdom; but some of the strength of iron shall be in it, as you saw the iron mixed with the clay. 42 As the toes of the feet were part iron and part clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong and partly brittle.
40 And there shall be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron; just as iron crushes and smashes everything, it shall crush and shatter all these. 41 As you saw the feet and toes partly of potter’s clay and partly of iron, it shall be a divided kingdom; but some of the strength of iron shall be in it, as you saw the iron mixed with the clay. 42 As the toes of the feet were part iron and part clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong and partly brittle.
Please read the above verses the present Kingdom of Nebuchadnezzar is the First Kingdom of Gold and followed by three other inferior Kingdoms after him. So no where the Fifth Kingdom is mentioned here and it is the same Fourth Kingdom he was talking which would be a divided kingdom because it was made of iron and clay. What else you need to understand this simple logic. Also I have shown you Dan 7 for more proof on these Four Kingdoms and not Five as you repeatedly quote here.
No Danielic Kingdoms are no where connected to Revelation 17’s single beast as it was talking about (Seven) Kings and not Kingdoms. Rev 17:
9 “This calls for a mind that has wisdom: the seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman is seated; also, they are seven kings, 10 of whom five have fallen, one is living, and the other has not yet come; and when he comes, he must remain only a little while. 11 As for the beast that was and is not, it is an eighth but it belongs to the seven, and it goes to destruction. 12 And the ten horns that you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but they are to receive authority as kings for one hour, together with the beast.
Sorry I can’t go further on this as you are simply misreading the texts of Daniel and Revelation.
Adam, the women is, Babylon the Great the mother of harlots and abominations who sits on the “seven mountains or “continents” of the earth, there are Five Kingdoms that have come on this earth and Satan is the one who carries them and the rest of the two more Bobylonian type of kingdom to follow later , after the Sixth world ruling kingdom of Jesus and the Saint’s , then comes , the final Seventh and eighth “BABYLONIAN ” “TYPE”, KINGDOMS which Satan will again control, as he did the first Five , after he is released from the “bottomless pit”. He immediately goes out into this world to again deceive the nations and brings about the FINAL Seventh and Eighth ” WORLD RULING” KINGDOMS, then He will take ten nations out of the Seventh kingdom and cause then to destroy the Seventh kingdom of Babylon completely, God will put it in the mind of theses ten small kingdoms to destroy and burn her “the Seventh” with fire, and Babylon will be no more, then Satan takes the ten nations that destroyed the Seventh BABYLONIAN KINGDOM, AND BRINGS THEM TO WAR against Jesus and the Saint’s’, who retreated back to Jerusalem and this great Army will surround them there, then FIRE COMES DOWN from heaven a destroys them all, That is the final battle of Armageddon. When God ALMIGHTY, returns back to this earth again, this last part lasts a short time 3 1/2 years. , and the books are opened and the dead are judged, out what is written, and after that God creates a whole new Heaven and earth, “for the former thing have past away, a whole new creation takes place” God the Father makes all thing new.
That is the short version of The end of the book of Revelations BEGINNING at Revelations 17, and aligning with Daniel 2.
peace and love to you and yours…………..gene.
It is clear that interpretations of Daniel and Revelation are a dime a dozen. What is clear to me is that both are talking of the same beast, except that Revelation shows us more of the picture.
The reason for that greater revelation is that as time progresses, knowledge shall increase.
Eventually all will he known and we are heading toward that conclusion.
While we are part way through, blessed are those who understand and blessed are those on the side of the Kingdom of God.
It is clear that interpretations of Daniel and Revelation are a dime a dozen. What is clear to me is that both are talking of the same beast, except that Revelation shows us more of the picture.
The reason for that greater revelation is that as time progresses, knowledge shall increase.
Eventually all will he known and we are heading toward that conclusion.
Hi Proclaimer, yes knowledge has increased scientifically and not due to any secret revelations.
The book of Revelation had copied the genre and images from the book of Daniel. But the inner themes of Daniel are completely different from Revelation. The Four Kingdoms of the great Statue of Nebuchadnezzar’s dream and the Four Kingdoms of the four beasts of Dan 7 were no where in the vicinity of the book of Revelation. We should see the historical background for those texts and interpret them to their timeline.
The book of Daniel is talking about Four Kingdoms before God establishes his Kingdom with his holyones whereas the book of Revelation is talking about a single beast who would be a king. Revelation 17 certainly talking about seven kings and not any Kingdoms as often misquoted by Gene, you and other Christians. The kingdom of Rome was no where in the vicinity of Danielic visions. But it was a major theme of the book of Revelation and the Woman of Rev 17 was the city of Rome which was built on seven hills.
Please read the texts carefully and you will get their proper meanings and themes.
THE FALL OF BABYLON (REVELATION 17:1-19:5)
Revelation Chapters 17 and 18 portray the judgment of God on the great (read “notorious”) prostitute, Rome, that citadel of pagan opposition to the cause of Christ. From a literary point of view the two chapters are distinct. In chapter 17 the harlot appears in a vulgar display of the trappings of wealth and power, and drunk with the blood of martyrs. In chapter 18 she is a city brought to ruins from her former position of world domination. After the opening vision (17:1-6) John learns from an interpreting angel the meaning of its various symbols. The seven heads are both seven hills and seven kings (v. 9), its ten horns are ten kings who join the beast in warring against the Lamb (vv. 12-14), the waters on which the prostitute is seated represent the nations of the world (v. 15), and the woman herself is the capital city of Rome (v. 18).
While the symbols themselves are not difficult to understand, the picture is complicated by such additional intricacies as the statement that the beast “belongs to the seven” yet “is an eighth king” (v.11). Anticipating some bewilderment the angel-interpreter adds, “Here is a problem for a profound mind!” (v. 9, Goodspeed). By contrast the following chapter (18) is fairly clear: it is a dirge over the fallen capital. Kings, merchants, and all seafarers bewail its destruction. Echoes from the prophetic taunt songs of Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Ezekiel reverberate throughout the chapter. It is clear that both chapters deal with the same epic event — the downfall of Rome, the center of power and influence that is threatening the early church. Chapter 17 portrays the overthrow of “Babylon” in terms of the destruction of a prostitute who sits astride the scarlet beast and flaunts her vile profession. In chapter 18 the central meaning of this entire episode comes into sharp focus; the prostitute is a city, and that city is “Babylon,” that is to say, Rome. Both chapters fill in in detail the essential meaning of the seventh bowl judgment. Chapter 17 combines a fuller interpretation of the two visions of chapter 13 with the final outpouring of God’s wrath as depicted by the last bowl judgment and sets the stage for the funeral dirge of chapter 18. From this point on John is laying before us his own “tale to two cities” — the city of man (earthly Babylon) and the city of God (the Jerusalem above).
19:1-10 is a great burst of heavenly jubilation over the fall of Babylon. It follows in stark contrast to the mournful dirges of chapter 18. It gives expression to the incredible rejoicing in heaven when the citadel of paganism and opposition to the people of God finally collapses. It prepares the way for the triumphal return of the Lamb and the establishment of the eternal reign of God…..(taken from the book “The Book of evelation , Commentary” by Robert H. Mounce)
Hi Adam. I think you tagged me in this thread, to debate Revelations.
Firstly, I don’t have time to debate because time is short right now. I am too busy warning people, or trying to warn them over the mark of the beast (vaccine).
The Beast is this system – and we either trust God or we trust the rulers of this system, governments, media. I trust God. Trust God.
For anyone interested, I’ll put this here (it is a long documentary so I’ve posted it from the end summary time).
Hi Sis Karmarie, thanks for your interest on this topic Parousia of Jesus.
But the so called Mark of the beast is COVID19 Vaccine is another myth by the Christianity which is not supported by the scientific data. If you are really interested you should see the expert videos like the following…
But the so called Mark of the beast is COVID19 Vaccine is another myth by the Christianity
That statement is about as intelligent as saying that the Flat Earth system is another myth of Science.
That statement is about as intelligent as saying that the Flat Earth system is another myth of Science.
Hi Proclaimer, you are so much interested in Flat Earth Science?
I see your posts on this subject on other threads too.
To All…………The mark of the beast, is about the System that comes to rule in the future, it’s not about a vaccine the is proven to knock out cove-19. It’s about the system of government under which people live. At this time, we all were born the way this world works, and we all are part of it, without choice because we all were taught since birth to live that way, but a time will come when this whole world will be taught different , in the world ruling Kingdom of Jesus and the Saint’s, at the end of that Kingdom of the right way to live, people will be given A choice, to change the way they live, when the Seventh kingdom of the resurrected Babylon System reappears . A different system then that of Jesus Christ and the Saint’s were teaching for the last thousand years, if they chose to go after that new system of Babylon the rising Seventh world ruling kingdom to rise under the rule of Satan , who was released from the bottomless pit, and they decide to follow it, that is the “mark of the beast” it is a new system of buying and selling for personal gain” not taught by Jesus Christ and the Saint’s for the last thousand years of their rule.
So right now that Mark of the beast is not relevant to people who have never lived in the Kingdom of God ever on this earth, ever. , who never have known the difference, but in that day they would all have lived in the kingdom of Jesus Christ for a thousand years, and know the difference.
What is important to us “now”, is that we do try to live our lives according to the words of God the Father and the lord Jesus Christ, even in this present evil system of Babylon that we live in and work in. So“Faith” in God the Father and Jesus Christ is a “SIGN” even now, but the “mark of the beast” spoken of in revelations comes later, at the end of the thousand year reign of Jesus and the Saint’s .
Peace and love to you all……..gene
Adam……Rome haven’t even existed since 476 AD. SORRY BUT YOU LISTENING TO FALSE PROPHETS.
IF YOU DON’T HAVE THE TIMELINE RIGHT , ’that I gave you’ , ITS JUST ALL SPECULATIONS.
peace and love to you and yours …………gene
The mystery of the Woman and the beast of Revelation 17
The seven heads of the beast are also seven kings, five of whom have fallen, one is, and one has not yet come. The simplest answer would be that the angel is referring to a series of Roman emperors and pointing out that one more must rule for a short time before the final advent of the beast. The five that have fallen would be Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius, and Nero; the one who is would be Vespasian, and Titus would be the one yet to come. This interpretation, however, has several problems. It regards Augustus as the first emperor although his predecessor, Julius Caesar, took the title Imperator, and was reckoned by many writers (both Roman and Jewish) as the first emperor. A second problem is the omission of the three rival emperors who ruled briefly between Nero (A.D. 54-68) and Vespasian (A.D. 69-79). Although Suetonius seems to dispose of them by referring to their reigns as rebellio trium principum, Josephus, in treating the bloody period between Nero and Vespasian, names both Galba and Otho as emperors and speaks of the troubles under Vitellius before the civil war was brought to an end. In the Sibylline Oracles (5:35) they are the “three kings” after Nero who “perish at each other’s hands.” It is therefore not at all certain that these three emperors should be passed over so lightly. By starting with Augustus and skipping the three pretenders, we would arrive at Vespasian as the king who is, that is, the ruler in power at the time of the writing of the book. Yet the evidence is fairly conclusive that the book of Revelation was written at a considerably later period, during the reign of Domitian (A.D. 81-96). Different answers are offered for this anachronism. One frequent suggestion is that John incorporates an earlier oracle from the time of Vespasian. Another is that John placed himself back in time and after the manner of apocalyptists wrote history in the guise of prophecy. These and others lack persuasion. The text is quite clear: king number six is ruling at the time of John’s writing. However people try to calculate the seven kings as Roman emperors, they encounter difficulties that cast considerable doubt on the entire approach.
A different approach is to take the seven kings as a succession of secular empires. One writer, for instance, lists Egypt, Nineveh, Babylon, Persia, and Greece as the five that have fallen; Rome is the present kingdom; and the one to come is the Christian empire beginning with Constantine. Another has a slightly different listing and makes the seventh a “collective title for all antichristian governments between the fall of Rome and the final empire of antichrist.” The basic problem with this approach is that the Greek word under consideration is everywhere throughout the NT translated “king,” not “kingdom.”
The most satisfactory explanation of the seven kings is that the number seven is symbolic and stands for the power of the Roman Empire as a historic whole. John is not interested in a careful tabulation of the past but is declaring the nearness of the end by the commonly accepted use of a numerical scheme. For John seven is the number of completeness. Five kings have fallen, one is, and the last one remains for only a short time. In other apocalyptic writings the number of ages or world periods conforms to different numerical schemes. In 2 Esdr 14:11 history is divided into twelve parts, of which 9½ (or 10½) have already passed. In the Apocalypse of Weeks, Enoch divides history into ten periods, seven of which are already past (I Enoch 93), and three yet future that lead to eternal judgment (1 Enoch 91:12-17). The single purpose of the apocalyptists in all such number schemes is to declare the imminent end of the age. In Revelation the seven kings represent the entire period of Roman domination regardless of the exact number of emperors. The important point is that the end is drawing near.
V 11 We now arrive at the heart of the riddle. The beast himself is an eighth king who is at the same time one of the seven. If the seven kings were specific Roman emperors, then the most likely candidate for number eight would be Domitian. This would identify the beast as the emperor reigning at the time John receives his vision. Yet three times in the chapter we are told that the beast is not (19:8 [twice], 11). At the time of writing, the beast has not yet ascended from the Abyss (19:8). He is an eighth in the sense that he is distinct from the other seven. He is Antichrist, not simply another Roman emperor. He is not a human ruler through whom the power of evil finds expression — he is that evil power itself. He belongs to the cosmic struggle between God and Satan that lies behind the scenes of human history. Yet he will appear on the stage of history as a man. He is “of the seven” (ek tōn hepta) — not “one of the seven” — in that he plays the same sort of role as his earthly predecessors. He himself, however, belongs to another sphere of reality. His period of hegemony is the great tribulation preceding the return of the Messiah.
This interpretation requires no reliance upon the Nero Redivivus myth (see earlier in 13:3), although its existence would aid in the understanding of John’s prophecy of Antichrist. Nero, the epitome of evil and the abuse of power, was (he lived and ruled) and is not (i.e., he is now dead). Yet (according to the myth) he will return to life and once again seize power. Commentators who understand the eighth king as Domitian stress that early writers recognized a resemblance between Nero and Domitian. But since all the beast’s heads were part of the same imperial system through which the evil intent of Antichrist found expression, we would of course expect the two prominent persecutors to be comparable.
A somewhat different approach holds that the beast is Antichrist in but two of his heads (successive worldly kingdoms at enmity with God). He was embodied in Antiochus Epiphanes, he does not now exist in the same malevolent form, but will in the future arise from the Abyss in the person of the eschatological Antichrist. It is doubtful, however, that the essentially Gentile church in Asia Minor at the end of the first century would place into such an exclusive category a Syrian ruler who, more than 250 years before, had persecuted the Jews in Palestine. Certainly the terrors of the Neronian persecution in A.D. 64, which only a few years before had set the stage for Roman opposition to the Christian faith, would be a more likely historical expression of Antichrist.
V 12-13 The ten horns are said by the angel-interpreter to be ten kings who as yet have not received their royal power. When they do receive authority, they will turn it over to the beast and join him in war against the Lamb. The ten kings are not the ten emperors of Rome because, unlike the Roman emperor, these have received no kingdom as yet. Nor are they the kings of the earth who in 18:9 mourn the fall of Babylon. Many writers identify them as Parthian satraps coming from the east in a massive invasion under the leadership of a revived Nero. This would fit the context of the following paragraph in which the ten kings and the beast destroy the prostitute city Rome (19:16-18). Still others take them to be the governors of senatorial provinces who held office for one year. Whatever the immediate historical allusion, the complete fulfillment of the imagery awaits the final curtain of the human drama. Ultimately the ten kings are “purely eschatological figures representing the totality of the powers of all nations on the earth which are to be made subservient to Antichrist.” The number ten is symbolic and indicates completeness. It does not point to ten specific kings nor to ten European kingdoms of a revived Roman empire. All the forces that join with Antichrist rule but a short period. With one mind they turn over their power and authority to the beast. They are willing colleagues who share the same hostility to Christ and his followers.
V 14, Verse 14 passes on quickly to the final conflict between Antichrist and the Messiah (19:11-21). It is a promise of victory for the Lamb in the battle of Armageddon. The Lamb will overcome his adversaries, for he is “Lord of lords and King of kings.” These well-known phrases emphasizing the sovereignty of God go back to Deut 10:17, where the Lord God is named the God of gods and Lord of lords (cf. Ps 136:2, 3; Dan 2:47; 2 Mace 13:4). In I Enoch 9:4 the Most High is named “Lord of lords, God of gods, King of kings, and God of the ages.” The beast will be overcome because he has met the One to whom everyone will ultimately be subordinate. The armies of heaven share his victory as well (cf. Rev 19:14). Those who overcome will exercise the authority of the Lamb over the nations of the earth and will rule them with an iron scepter (Rev 2:26-27). The concept of the righteous taking part in the destruction of the wicked is a standard apocalyptic theme. In 1 Enoch 98:12 the unrighteous are warned that they are to be delivered into the hands of the righteous, who will cut off their necks without mercy (cf. 1 Enoch 38:5; 91:12; 96:1). The specific role of those who accompany the Lamb in battle is not discussed. They are simply identified as called, chosen, and faithful.
V 15 The angel continues his interpretation (cf. vv. 8 and 12) by identifying the waters upon which the prostitute sits as peoples, multitudes, nations, and languages. This fourfold grouping stresses universality. The imagery of the waters comes from Jer 51:13, where Babylon is pictured as dwelling by many waters, a reference to the Euphrates and its system of waterways in and around the city. For John the symbol serves to emphasize the vastness of the power of Rome, the capital city of the entire Mediterranean civilization.
V 16 The fate of the prostitute is now related in phrases reminiscent of Ezekiel’s vivid allegory of Oholibah (Ezek 23:11-35), who doted on the Assyrians (23:12), was defiled by the Babylonians (23:17), and played the prostitute in the land of Egypt (23:19). The beast and the ten kings turn in hatred upon the prostitute (“they will deal with you in hatred,” Ezek 23:29), make her desolate (“strip you of your clothes and take your fine jewelry,” Ezek 23:26) and naked (“leave you naked and bare,” Ezek 23:29), eat her flesh (“cut off your noses and your ears,” Ezek 23:25), and burn her utterly with fire (“those of you who are left will be consumed by fire,” Ezek 23:25). This turning of the beast against the woman who sits on it speaks of “a terrible and mysterious law of political history, according to which every revolutionary power contains within itself the seed of self-destruction.” It describes the self-destroying power of evil. The wicked are not a happy band of brothers, but precisely because they are wicked they give way to jealousy and hatred, so that “at the climax their mutual hatreds will result in mutual destruction.”
The woman who was once arrayed in purple and scarlet and adorned with jewelry (Rev 17:4) is now stripped bare. The eating of her flesh 1366 suggests wild beasts tearing at the body of their prey and portrays the fierceness with which the prostitute is attacked by her assailants. One is reminded of the bloody scene when Jezebel, having been thrown from the window and trampled by horses, was then eaten by the dogs except for skull, feet, and palms of hands (2 Kgs 9:30-37).
Finally, the prostitute is burned with fire. Leviticus teaches that if the daughter of any priest defiles herself by becoming a prostitute, she is to be burned in the fire (Lev 21:9). So also is the man who takes a wife and her mother also — the three shall be burned in the fire (Lev 20:14).
V 17 The angel explains that it was God who brought about the slaughter of the prostitute by putting it into the hearts of the ten kings to do his will. They were of one mind in relinquishing their sovereignty to the east and joining in his assault upon the prostitute (v. 17) and in his final campaign against the Lamb (vv. 13-14). This verse denies the existence of any ultimate dualism in the world. In the final analysis the powers of evil serve the purposes of God. The coalition between the beast and his allies will continue until the words of God — the prophecies leading up to the overthrow of Antichrist — are fulfilled. V 18 For the fourth time in this chapter the angel identifies and interprets a figure in the vision.
The woman is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth. For John, the city is Rome. She is the wicked seducer whose pernicious influence has permeated the whole of the Mediterranean world. Yet Babylon the Great, source of universal harlotry and abomination (v. 5), is more than first-century Rome. Every great center of power that has prostituted its wealth and influence restores to life the spirit of ancient Babylon….(taken from the book of Book of Revelation-A Commentary)
Adam……Rome haven’t even existed since 476 AD. SORRY BUT YOU LISTENING TO FALSE PROPHETS.
IF YOU DON’T HAVE THE TIMELINE RIGHT , ’that I gave you’ , ITS JUST ALL SPECULATIONS.
Hi brother Gene, yes the book of Revelation is not talking about the present nation Italy or Rome but it certainly was talking about the First Century Rome at the time of John the writer of Revelation as one of the seven Kings (the Sixth king) was ruling at the time of this writer as per Rev 17:10.
…..The mark of the beast, is about the System that comes to rule in the future, it’s not about a vaccine the is proven to knock out cove-19.
Hi brother Gene, I agree with you on the COVID19 Vaccine. I even don’t think that there will be any Mark of the Beast in future as the book of Revelation was talking about its own time, the First Century and not about 2021 or 3031.
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