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Quote (t8 @ May 24 2011,04:15) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ May 23 2011,09:16) Quote (david @ May 23 2011,03:04) Quote We just know that the bible gives credit about creation in the NT to Christ.
Which scripture?Are you talking about the “through” scriptures?
All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being” (Joh 1:3)
“He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.” (Joh 1:10)
“For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities–all things have been created through Him and for Him. (Col 1:16)
That's the thing. You say that credit is given to Jesus for creation in the NT, yet you also say “The bible never claims how or in what way that God created THROUGH Christ. “
If God “created” THROUGH Christ, then did Christ create, or was he used to create by God?
There is a clear relationship in how things were created. God created THROUGH Jesus.
God created through Jesus,Tell me how?
And when Jesus Created,
How did he Create life?
God created all through the Logos. The Logos is Jesus Christ.
Ok How so?How did GOD do that?
Did he Whisper into Jesus ears and than Jesus spoke and BAM the BIG BANG? or what?Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 23 2011,22:11) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ May 22 2011,18:01)
All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being” (Joh 1:3)
All things could not come to be unless it was by Jesus,
And nothing apart could ever exist without it being by Jesus.
This passage doesnt mention God, or that God created through Jesus, In fact its quite the opposite. The passage reflects that life as we know it is created through Jesus.Its like saying: “all things were created through God” does that mean someone used God to create things?
of course not.
So this biblcal reference gives clear understanding that Christ created and gives credit to him.
Hi DennisonExactly. The word “dia” translated “through and by” are the same and it makes no difference.
For of him, and through (dia) him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen. Rom 11:36
The above scripture says all things are “through (dia)” God or Jesus (take your pick). So does that mean that all things come “through” someone other than God?
Blessings WJ
Keith,
They have been using that diversion for the longest time, as IF they were there when God created the world as we know it.They say it so simply *cough* *Cough* “Well God created the world through the word Which is Jesus Christ which is totally scriptural, but of course Jesus is not God, because he is someone other than God, who so happen to create, but is only a builder but no the mastermind, and im right your wrong there”
Its like are you FLIPPEN kidding me? are you saying SOMEONE other than God created?
It makes no sense why they would so easily cliam they know it all, when probably they have no fliippen clue, what THAT REALLY MEANS. *cough* *cough* “well Son Of God must be taken literally because of course it means he is the “SON” of “GOD” and thats why he is not God”
And He is also calls himself the “son of MAn” and uses it interchangably with Son of God, so is Jesus NOT a MAn?
….. lol…. aghhhhhhhhhhhhhh
Kieth Im sure you understand my frustration at the moment.
What do people think the word “through” means?
I didn't sell my house myself but I sold it “through” my real estate agent. He did the work, but make no mistake, all the paperwork says I am the legal “seller.”
Despite him doing the work, it was my idea, my purpose. He carried it out using my funds. Despite the fact that you can say he sold the house, I am still the only legal “seller.”
What do you people think “through” means? Does anyone here not understand the illustration above?
Yes, Jehovah alone is the Creator as the paperwork says. Yes, it is repeatedly stated that he created it “through” his Son.
david
Quote God created through Jesus, Tell me how?
Quote Ok How so? How did GOD do that?
Did he Whisper into Jesus ears and than Jesus spoke and BAM the BIG BANG? or what?How would I know? All I know is that Jehovah is the Creator and he created “through” Jesus. I no more know the details of “how” he did this than I know how the real estate agent sold my (the seller's) house. I just told them what I wanted and paid the bill.
Quote Its like are you FLIPPEN kidding me? are you saying SOMEONE other than God created? Wait, are you flippen kidding me? Are you saying someone other than myself (the seller) sold my house?
Yay! The Real estate agent sold my house. Yay! I sold my house. Which is it? I'm officially and legally the “seller.” The documentation proves it. But I had someone else sell it for me. Rather than sell it myself, I sold it “THROUGH” the real estate agent.
I know you this is easily grasped.
Quote BTW, don't miss this part of your own quote… “For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities–all things have been created through Him and for Him. (Col 1:16)
–Paul
My house was sold 'by' the real estate agent and “through” the real estate agent. I am still the seller.
SOMEONE WALKS INTO MY HOUSE DURING THE OPEN HOUSE, AND ASK THE GUY IN THE SUIT: “Are you the seller”? He says “No, I'm the Realtor.” Yet, how was the house sold? It was sold both “by” and “through” the Realtor.
And when it comes to me, the official “seller,” I can say it was sold “by” me, but I can't see myself ever saying it was sold “through” me.
Quote Yehsua was the actual executor of the creation event. –Paul
Paul, in my illustration above, the real estate salesman was the executor of selling my house. Now, my question: In the paperwork, who do you think the “seller” is? Do you think it is the Realtor? Or do you think it is me?
Can I do that tomorrow? It's 2:00 AM. I must sleep. But, while waiting for my answer, perhaps you could answer the question above yours?
Quote (david @ May 26 2011,18:48) Can I do that tomorrow? It's 2:00 AM. I must sleep. But, while waiting for my answer, perhaps you could answer the question above yours?
Yes, that's fine.Quote My house was sold 'by' the real estate agent and “through” the real estate agent. I am still the seller. SOMEONE WALKS INTO MY HOUSE DURING THE OPEN HOUSE, AND ASK THE GUY IN THE SUIT: “Are you the seller”? He says “No, I'm the Realtor.” Yet, how was the house sold? It was sold both “by” and “through” the Realtor.
And when it comes to me, the official “seller,” I can say it was sold “by” me, but I can't see myself ever saying it was sold “through” me.
This comparison, crude that it is, isn't completely discordant with what I've been asserting. The identity of the official seller is a matter of perspective. The real estate agent listed the property, marketed it, wooed the vendors, closed the deal. Under their own power they made the whole thing happen. The property owner sold the house by nature of his/her proprietorship and few decisions. If anything this analogy impugns the Father as it shows Him as only having a relatively insignificant part in the sale process. So in that sense I think it's inadequate.Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 25 2011,21:24) Quote Yes I have. I know that God created everything alone. He chose to do that THROUGH Jesus. Just as He created me alone, but did that THROUGH my parents.
You just contradicted yourself.
If that is a contradiction then truth is a contradiction.
Were you not created by God through your parents? Yes.
Did God create all things alone? According to scripture, you say yes.Deal with it. If both are true, then that means you need to change your understanding here Paul to cater for both truths instead of seeing them as contradictions. In doing so, it might have the added benefit of explaining the idea that God created the universe through and for his son without you having to resort in making Jesus into God too.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 26 2011,19:46) This comparison, crude that it is, isn't completely discordant with what I've been asserting. The identity of the official seller is a matter of perspective. The real estate agent listed the property, marketed it, wooed the vendors, closed the deal. Under their own power they made the whole thing happen. The property owner sold the house by nature of his/her proprietorship and few decisions. If anything this analogy impugns the Father as it shows Him as only having a relatively insignificant part in the sale process. So in that sense I think it's inadequate.
Not necessarily. All you need to do is move all the creative stuff back to the Father and put the reason for doing so down to the son.In addition to that, just as God mediates with us through Christ, why could not God make us and all creation through him too?
Again, no need to turn Jesus into God to make it intelligible. Just read it as it is. He is the mediator and God does all through him. In fact this is so taught in scripture that it says that anyone who comes to God any other way is a robber.
Quote (david @ May 26 2011,12:36) Quote Its like are you FLIPPEN kidding me? are you saying SOMEONE other than God created? Wait, are you flippen kidding me? Are you saying someone other than myself (the seller) sold my house?
Yay! The Real estate agent sold my house. Yay! I sold my house. Which is it? I'm officially and legally the “seller.” The documentation proves it. But I had someone else sell it for me. Rather than sell it myself, I sold it “THROUGH” the real estate agent.
I know you this is easily grasped.
Quote (david @ May 26 2011,12:33) Quote God created through Jesus, Tell me how?
Quote Ok How so? How did GOD do that?
Did he Whisper into Jesus ears and than Jesus spoke and BAM the BIG BANG? or what?How would I know? All I know is that Jehovah is the Creator and he created “through” Jesus. I no more know the details of “how” he did this than I know how the real estate agent sold my (the seller's) house. I just told them what I wanted and paid the bill.
How could you write these two statements and still claim otherwise.
1. You stated it yourself that you have no idea how its done.
2. Than you give an example how a seller comes to an Agent as if you do know how its done?Dont PRETEND to know when you don't.
Here are problems with your example: a Seller depends on the agent, because the SELLER cannot professionally sell a home and gain the most profitable outcome by selling it themselves.
a Seller CANT, so he hires someone else who CAN.God is different, He has all the power to create for himself.
GOD CAN, yet he relied on someone else who CAN also?The Architech and the builder example also has the same flaws in comparison to God.
The Arichitech decides the model of the house, yet he CANT build, so you hire workers that CAN build what he measures and draws.However GOD can do ANYTHING himself, yet RELIED on someone else to do EVERYTHING for Him?
16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Yet Jesus created these things for who?
himself??You Said:
What do people think the word “through” means?“I didn't sell my house myself but I sold it “through” my real estate agent. He did the work, but make no mistake, all the paperwork says I am the legal “seller.”
But thats NOT what scriptures says, it says quite the opposite, its states the WORLD WE LIVE IN, THIS WORLD!!! was CREATED THROUGH JESUS,
What if I said THIS WORLD WAS CREATED THROUGH GOD?
Does that mean someone other than God created the world because i used the word through?
These Scriptures always state the “created object” and the “maker, or the Creator” of that Object.
In this case the World is that object and the Creator of it is the Word of God, who is Jesus Christ.
I know you this is easily grasped.David
How about this…?
We are all saved “through” or “by” Jehovah who is our “Only Savour”.
Does that mean YHWH didn't save us because it is “Through” him that we are saved?
For of him, and through (dia) him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen. Rom 11:36
Does the above scripture mean all things are not “through” God?
Since when does logic say someone doing something through someone means that the someone did it alone or by himself with none other?
WJ
Quote (david @ May 26 2011,02:48) Quote Yehsua was the actual executor of the creation event. –Paul
Paul, in my illustration above, the real estate salesman was the executor of selling my house. Now, my question: In the paperwork, who do you think the “seller” is? Do you think it is the Realtor? Or do you think it is me?
DavidYour analogy falls short because Jesus is not just creator with the Father like your real estate agent is co-seller with the seller because Jesus unlike your real estate example is the “Owner and possesor of all things” for all things were created by him and for him.
Your real estate agent doesn't own anything, but Jesus owns it all and has dominion over it all.
WJ
Quote (t8 @ May 26 2011,04:55) Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 26 2011,19:46) This comparison, crude that it is, isn't completely discordant with what I've been asserting. The identity of the official seller is a matter of perspective. The real estate agent listed the property, marketed it, wooed the vendors, closed the deal. Under their own power they made the whole thing happen. The property owner sold the house by nature of his/her proprietorship and few decisions. If anything this analogy impugns the Father as it shows Him as only having a relatively insignificant part in the sale process. So in that sense I think it's inadequate.
Not necessarily. All you need to do is move all the creative stuff back to the Father and put the reason for doing so down to the son.
t8If you move all the “creative stuff” back to the Father then that means Jesus did nothing in the creation of all things.
You are contradicting scriptures for the scripture says “Not one thing came into being without him (Jesus)”. John 1:1-3
WJ
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