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I think the 'from the Father, through the Son' just shows that there are more than one person in the one all sufficient Deity. A Father and Son with their Spirit=the all sufficient Deity. Take one away and no one is made or saved.
Kathi
Quote Your real estate agent doesn't own anything, but Jesus owns it all and has dominion over it all. I'm pretty sure there is a scripture in the hebrew scriptures that says: “The earth belongs to Jehovah.” If the owner places his son over and in charge of his land, again, the owner of the land is different than the one that has been given the commission to take care of it and rule over it.
Quote Under their own power they made the whole thing happen. –paul.
No, in my illustration, it was the official seller (me) who supplied the funds, which in this case represents the power to carry this out. I have no time now, and I should have given these scriptures before, but it is God who supplies the power behind Jesus miracles for example. It was not by Jesus own power that he was doing those miracles. He would pray to God. (I'll provide some scriptures later…no time now.)Quote If anything this analogy impugns the Father as it shows Him as only having a relatively insignificant part in the sale process. So in that sense I think it's inadequate.
And yet, we still call myself the legal official “seller” of the property, do we not? All I provide is the 10's of thousands of dollars, and I stamp my signature on it. That's all? To me, that's a lot.Quote David Your analogy falls short because Jesus is not just creator with the Father like your real estate agent is co-seller with the seller because Jesus unlike your real estate example is the “Owner and possesor of all things” for all things were created by him and for him.
–Wj
Hi WJ, coming back to this statement, maybe where you live, they use words differently than here, but one would never ever call the real estate agent the co-seller, despite him being commissioned to sell the house.
Can I ask which scripture you refer to?
Quote David How about this…?
We are all saved “through” or “by” Jehovah who is our “Only Savour”.
Does that mean YHWH didn't save us because it is “Through” him that we are saved?
For of him, and through (dia) him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen. Rom 11:36
Does the above scripture mean all things are not “through” God?
Since when does logic say someone doing something through someone means that the someone did it alone or by himself with none other?
–WJ
WJ, I'm so glad you brought this up. Jehovah saved up “through” his Son's death, so Jehovah is our Savior in that gave us his Son as a Ransom. His Son is of course also a savior. Both could be called Saviors, as even many others are in scripture.
When it comes to creatorship, it is made clear that God created “through” Jesus. Yet, Jesus is never called the creator.
Quote Since when does logic say someone doing something through someone means that the someone did it alone or by himself with none other?
Look at my illustration. I (the seller) sold it “through” a real estate agent. Yet, we would never (or, no one where I live) would ever call the real estate agent the “seller” of the property. And, nowhere in the Bible are we told that Jesus is the “Creator.” We are told that God created it “through” Jesus.You seem to have created a false argument above. I am not saying that logic dictates it. I'm saying that logic allows it, as my illustration proves.
Quote How could you write these two statements and still claim otherwise. 1. You stated it yourself that you have no idea how its done.
2. Than you give an example how a seller comes to an Agent as if you do know how its done?Dont PRETEND to know when you don't.
–Simply
Simply, see the last sentence in my last post.
Quote (david @ May 26 2011,02:27) What do people think the word “through” means? I didn't sell my house myself but I sold it “through” my real estate agent.
So the parallel would be…Jehovah didn't create all things himself but did it through Jesus?
Isn't that what your example is saying?
So how do you reconcile that with the scriptures that says clearly “God Alone” created all things?
WJ
CONTINUING ON FROM MY SECOND LAST POST, I SHOULD HAVE INCLUDED:
“You seem to have created a false argument above. I am not saying that logic dictates it. I'm saying that logic allows it, as my illustration proves. “
It is scripture that dictates it, when it continually says that it was created by God but “through” Jesus. Logic allows (not dictates) it. Scripture dictates it.I really really really have to go, 10 minutes ago, but:
Quote So how do you reconcile that with the scriptures that says clearly “God Alone” created all things? How do you reconcile your intelligence with the scripture that says: “God, alone wise”?
I think because God is the ultimate source of wisdom and power and everything, he takes the credit. He is the standard.
Just as “Solomon built the temple” (even though he had it built), we know that repeatedly the Bible gives credit to Solomon as the builder.
I ask you WHY? WHY? WHY?
When you answer that, you have answered your own question. I have to go. Be back in 5 hours.
Quote (david @ May 26 2011,15:09) CONTINUING ON FROM MY SECOND LAST POST, I SHOULD HAVE INCLUDED: “You seem to have created a false argument above. I am not saying that logic dictates it. I'm saying that logic allows it, as my illustration proves. “
It is scripture that dictates it, when it continually says that it was created by God but “through” Jesus. Logic allows (not dictates) it. Scripture dictates it.
DavidThe scripture dictates that only Jehovah “by himself”, “Alone” and “None other” created all things.
Yet you believe Jehovah created all things through a “created being”.
The Word was with God and was God and “Nothing came into being without him”.
If everything comes frome the Father through Jesus then to us that means that everything comes from Jesus as well as the Father for they are “One God”.
WJ
Quote (david @ May 26 2011,15:13) I really really really have to go, 10 minutes ago, but: Quote So how do you reconcile that with the scriptures that says clearly “God Alone” created all things? How do you reconcile your intelligence with the scripture that says: “God, alone wise”?
DavidWhere is the scripture that says “God alone” is wise?
WJ
Quote (Lightenup @ May 21 2011,16:00) Mike, Quote Jesus was also brought forth by his Father, indicating a time when he didn't exist. And that is not proven anywhere in scripture. The Spirit was also brought forth yet eternal.
Anyway, we should probably just keep our discussion in our discussion thread, ok? I was asking Irene for her response in case you didn't notice
I would like to get her response, thanks.Kathi
If Jesus existed with the Father for all eternity as someone other than the Father, you then have 2 Gods. But scripture is clear that there is one God meaning that there is one source and we know that this God is the Father.Does scripture need to spell out that Christ is not that source. I would have thought you should take it for granted if the Father is said to be the only true God who sent his son.
Quote (Lightenup @ May 21 2011,15:56) Hi t8, There are no articles in the Greek in this verse however they are added to the translation.
1 Cor 1;24
but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.I think people make more out of the article than they should. For instance, sometimes it is there to show which noun is the subject of the sentence.
Kathi
Although that may be true, we know that Jesus is a real person and thus we can say THE Jesus and we know that he possesses these attributes including Wisdom.So it is also true that one who possesses a quality to a degree that he does, could be called by any of those qualities by name.
e.g., we call the greatest footballer of all time, the king.
Here is a list of those who are called the Great because of their supposed great works.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_known_as_The_Great
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 27 2011,07:07) Quote (david @ May 26 2011,02:27) What do people think the word “through” means? I didn't sell my house myself but I sold it “through” my real estate agent.
So the parallel would be…Jehovah didn't create all things himself but did it through Jesus?
Isn't that what your example is saying?
So how do you reconcile that with the scriptures that says clearly “God Alone” created all things?
WJ
You have created a difficulty for yourself.God created you through your parents did he not?
If you take God creating alone with no agent or channel being possible, then your own conclusion to your own doctrine is that you were not created through your parents which makes you even more unique than the son of God.
Are you sure you want to go there?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 27 2011,02:52) t8 If you move all the “creative stuff” back to the Father then that means Jesus did nothing in the creation of all things.
You are contradicting scriptures for the scripture says “Not one thing came into being without him (Jesus)”. John 1:1-3
WJ
No it means that God created all things THROUGH him and nothing was made that was made without being made through him.I would have thought that was obvious.
Quote (t8 @ May 26 2011,17:34) Quote (Lightenup @ May 21 2011,16:00) Mike, Quote Jesus was also brought forth by his Father, indicating a time when he didn't exist. And that is not proven anywhere in scripture. The Spirit was also brought forth yet eternal.
Anyway, we should probably just keep our discussion in our discussion thread, ok? I was asking Irene for her response in case you didn't notice
I would like to get her response, thanks.Kathi
If Jesus existed with the Father for all eternity as someone other than the Father, you then have 2 Gods. But scripture is clear that there is one God meaning that there is one source and we know that this God is the Father.Does scripture need to spell out that Christ is not that source. I would have thought you should take it for granted if the Father is said to be the only true God who sent his son.
Quote If Jesus existed with the Father for all eternity as someone other than the Father, you then have 2 Gods. 1 God as Father, source
1 God as Son, not Father, not source, but image and word of source so that which is invisible can be made visible because our God relates to His creation and wants to be revealed to us.Both inseparable…and if inseparable, together our one Deity. Context usually makes it clear as to which person is being referred to or if both are being spoken of as one together.
Polytheists have more than one separate god. I am speaking of more than one God who is inseparable with another, making up one Godhead.
Like one family with more than one member, each member being equally a person and equally human but not equally each other.
Scripture implies that the one Godhead is an 'us.'
Without one we do not have the other and we are like the blind unbelieving Jew.
Quote (t8 @ May 26 2011,17:40) Quote (Lightenup @ May 21 2011,15:56) Hi t8, There are no articles in the Greek in this verse however they are added to the translation.
1 Cor 1;24
but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.I think people make more out of the article than they should. For instance, sometimes it is there to show which noun is the subject of the sentence.
Kathi
Although that may be true, we know that Jesus is a real person and thus we can say THE Jesus and we know that he possesses these attributes including Wisdom.So it is also true that one who possesses a quality to a degree that he does, could be called by any of those qualities by name.
e.g., we call the greatest footballer of all time, the king.
Here is a list of those who are called the Great because of their supposed great works.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_known_as_The_Great
Jesus may be called 'the' wisdom of God or just wisdom of God but we understand that Jesus is not an attribute but a Son and being a Son, He would by nature have the wisdom of God and so would His Father.and thus being called wisdom from God also places him as a candidate for the wisdom that was the craftsman at his side.
An image of God cannot be God that is an oxymoron.
God is the source.
There is no one true God that is not the source and creator of all.
The one true God means what it says although the tendency for man is to change that, God wrote this into the first commandment.An image of God may have qualities of God however, thereby being qualified as “theos” but not THE only true “theos”.
Also, God is a HIM, not THEM.
If you are convinced of your theory, that God is “THEM”, then call God “THEM” to at least show your faith in your own teaching/doctrine.
When you do that, at least I will be convinced that you truly believe your own doctrine.People get confused, but the Father is the original and only true God. This is clearly taught in scripture lest any person teach otherwise.
The son came from him so as it is written in scripture, that he existed in the form of God or with divine nature and when he came here he emptied himself and partook of human nature. He even learned obedience here. I guess that means that when you are not tempted you do not learn to be obedient, you just are. Also, having divine nature didn't make him THE theos just as having human nature didn't make him THE Adam (the husband of Eve), although he was called the second Adam, but for a different reason.Between us and God there needs to be an intermediary step. That is Christ.
God is not physical, but the son who can inhabit a single body can enter God's own creation as a person and can be in the glory that he had with the Father before the world began. Whereas God himself is an eternal Spirit who can pervade all of creation, but does not contain himself in one body. Hence the reason he is called the invisible God and Jesus, the visible representation of him.
Quote (SimplyForgiven @ May 26 2011,11:16) Quote (t8 @ May 24 2011,04:15) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ May 23 2011,09:16) Quote (david @ May 23 2011,03:04) Quote We just know that the bible gives credit about creation in the NT to Christ.
Which scripture?Are you talking about the “through” scriptures?
All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being” (Joh 1:3)
“He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.” (Joh 1:10)
“For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities–all things have been created through Him and for Him. (Col 1:16)
That's the thing. You say that credit is given to Jesus for creation in the NT, yet you also say “The bible never claims how or in what way that God created THROUGH Christ. “
If God “created” THROUGH Christ, then did Christ create, or was he used to create by God?
There is a clear relationship in how things were created. God created THROUGH Jesus.
God created through Jesus,Tell me how?
And when Jesus Created,
How did he Create life?
God created all through the Logos. The Logos is Jesus Christ.
Ok How so?How did GOD do that?
Did he Whisper into Jesus ears and than Jesus spoke and BAM the BIG BANG? or what?
Bump for T8The Logos was WITH God and God created all through the Logos. We are later told that the Logos is Jesus Christ whom the disciples beheld and who are witnessed to his glory. We know that he existed in glory with God before the world began and returned to that.
How did this take place, I do not know because I wasn't there, but suffice to say that God created all through him. Think of the one at his right hand side as the channel that God created through and also the exclusive channel for salvation.
If you cannot imagine it, then think about trying to get from 1 -3. You first need to go past 2 to arrive there.
Or think about going from 1 dimension to 3. The intermediary dimension would be the second.
Now think of Christ as the mediator between God and Man/Creation. If it is not through him, then it isn't real or doesn't exist.
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