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Pierre,
Why would you say the JWs had “nothing to do with it”, if they were the ones who came calling and led that person to Jehovah?
Quote (t8 @ Dec. 06 2012,02:16) What I am saying is that if JW doctrine has you convinced that there are no gifts of the spirit and that demons do not work in man as we see in the New Testament, then you are forced to deny any instance of either.
t8,Perhaps you missed it in David's long posts, but he has repeatedly tried to tell you that the JWs DO believe in demon activity in this day and age. They also believe that people can invite demons into their lives through the use of things such as Ouija Boards.
He is saying that HE differs from the JWs in this respect.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 07 2012,07:34) Pierre, Why would you say the JEWs had “nothing to do with it”, if they were the ones who came calling and led that person to Jehovah?
Mikeif they would be then we should join them ;the truth is that many religion have that experience of being in the right place at the right time for the right people that need help ,
even people that are not religious ,but by looking at the intervention of men why would we give men glory
God make us look for him and we some times do not understand right away ,it is like some people got out of a deadly accident and walk away of it or with minor injuries while some others dies and should not have so why is this happen ???lot of question story,like that ,
so because it is God through Christ that saves not men or religion groups ;I do understand that God uses all kind of means to save but let us not give glory to men for it ,
Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 07 2012,02:16) david Quote So, mike and Pierre believe these are miracles, or perhaps that God directed these JW to these ones through his Holy Spirit. I believe you are streaching thing over ,it was not in that intend that I answered you,showing you that the JW add nothing to do in it ,you just took a bias view towards what you like to hear and see ,
No. I asked: “t8, are these miracles” and I asked you to discuss this. You said:“D
I call that interventions by angels ,for reasons ?
And if an intervention would be or can be defined as a miracle then I guess it would be a miracle,But I have notice that God does not save someone for that person himself ,sometime yes but their could be other factors ,”
SO, you said: “I guess it would be a miracle.”
I didn't really stretch anything Pierre. If you would like to change your mind, and now say they are not miracles in any way, please do so.
Quote So yes and no. Depends if it is divine intervention or not. God does intervene, so where that happens you can call that a miracle.
Well how do you know? If both God intervening, and God not intervening can look exactly the same, then how do you know, t8?
You really can't know, if they look e same. You can only believe or have faith.
My point in asking you whether it is a miracle when a person is praying for help and a witness coms along a moment later, was that many many people are praying at any given moment. And that ncludes Saturday morning for example. And if 2 or 3 million JW are going from door to door on Saturday, statistically, they will run into many many people who are praying for help. And maybe a few of them were just thinking about ending it all. And maybe a few of the JW that called on them were about to quite but for some reason decided to do one more door.
The truth is, many witnesses decided to do just one more door, and nothing happened. But for a few, they met a person that was praying for help. So, is this a miracle? Or is this math?
For me, it's math. It absolutely HAS to happen, mathematically speaking. It would be a true miracle if it didn't happen.
Yet, witnesses look at these and see miracles. As you say, maybe God directed them and maybe it is just statistically probable. But when two things look exactly the same, how do we determine which it is?
Which brings me back to the ouija experience. There are 100 ways to fake miraculous looking things. Really, only those that spend their life playing with such deceptions would spot them easily. How can you tell of something is a miracle if the non-miracle looks just like the miracle? Or, how can you tell if the ouija is magically moving around when psychology and physiology would accomplish the same task?
Quote (david @ Dec. 07 2012,10:08) Quote So yes and no. Depends if it is divine intervention or not. God does intervene, so where that happens you can call that a miracle.
Well how do you know? If both God intervening, and God not intervening can look exactly the same, then how do you know, t8?
You really can't know, if they look e same. You can only believe or have faith.
My point in asking you whether it is a miracle when a person is praying for help and a witness coms along a moment later, was that many many people are praying at any given moment. And that ncludes Saturday morning for example. And if 2 or 3 million JW are going from door to door on Saturday, statistically, they will run into many many people who are praying for help. And maybe a few of them were just thinking about ending it all. And maybe a few of the JW that called on them were about to quite but for some reason decided to do one more door.
The truth is, many witnesses decided to do just one more door, and nothing happened. But for a few, they met a person that was praying for help. So, is this a miracle? Or is this math?
For me, it's math. It absolutely HAS to happen, mathematically speaking. It would be a true miracle if it didn't happen.
Yet, witnesses look at these and see miracles. As you say, maybe God directed them and maybe it is just statistically probable. But when two things look exactly the same, how do we determine which it is?
Which brings me back to the ouija experience. There are 100 ways to fake miraculous looking things. Really, only those that spend their life playing with such deceptions would spot them easily. How can you tell of something is a miracle if the non-miracle looks just like the miracle? Or, how can you tell if the ouija is magically moving around when psychology and physiology would accomplish the same task?
DWe can not say that in this circumstance it is an miracle and in the other it his,but God knows and make it known to you,and then the ball is in your hands so to speak ,look at the ten sick men Christ healed only one came back,
Now I have a question for you, why was Job really attacted by Satan ???why him and not an other like one of his freinds
And what. Did Satan uses to bring down Job
And tell me wich of my three questions would or could be considered has a miracle if any,???
Quote (david @ Dec. 07 2012,09:58) Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 07 2012,02:16) david Quote So, mike and Pierre believe these are miracles, or perhaps that God directed these JW to these ones through his Holy Spirit. I believe you are streaching thing over ,it was not in that intend that I answered you,showing you that the JW add nothing to do in it ,you just took a bias view towards what you like to hear and see ,
No. I asked: “t8, are these miracles” and I asked you to discuss this. You said:“D
I call that interventions by angels ,for reasons ?
And if an intervention would be or can be defined as a miracle then I guess it would be a miracle,But I have notice that God does not save someone for that person himself ,sometime yes but their could be other factors ,”
SO, you said: “I guess it would be a miracle.”
I didn't really stretch anything Pierre. If you would like to change your mind, and now say they are not miracles in any way, please do so.
ddid you
if's and ? marks are quickly turned into this;So, mike and Pierre believe these are miracles, or perhaps that God directed these JW to these ones through his Holy Spirit.
Quote (david @ Dec. 06 2012,07:54) So, WAKEUP clearly thinks those were not miracles. Pierre and mike believe they were miracles.
We're they? And if they were not miracles, what were they?
David.How do you define miracles?
I call that; God at work doing the drawing,and he does it in many mysterious ways.He uses all kinds of people, and even evil spirits,as his tool.
You can call that a miracle if you like,I am not against that.
A murderer that has been drawn by God to become a God fearing person,is God at work; we can call that a miracle.I am not against that.
wakeup.
Quote (Wakeup @ Dec. 08 2012,07:06) David. How do you define miracles?
I call that; God at work doing the drawing,and he does it in many mysterious ways.He uses all kinds of people, and even evil spirits,as his tool.
You can call that a miracle if you like,I am not against that.
A murderer that has been drawn by God to become a God fearing person,is God at work; we can call that a miracle.I am not against that.
wakeup.
I suppose for me, a miracle is that which cannot be physically explained by itself.This means that it is a spiritual or divine work that may show itself in a physical way, but it originates higher up the ladder so to speak.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 07 2012,15:37) t8, Perhaps you missed it in David's long posts, but he has repeatedly tried to tell you that the JWs DO believe in demon activity in this day and age. They also believe that people can invite demons into their lives through the use of things such as Ouija Boards.
He is saying that HE differs from the JWs in this respect.
Actually there is a good lesson here. Your post was small enough to read and to make its point and I noticed it.Most people just don't have time to wade through mountains of information to extract a point like this.
I prefer these snippet posts myself, but understand that longer posts have their place too. But too many long posts is too burdensome for a person who has little time to spare as it is.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 07 2012,15:37) Quote (t8 @ Dec. 06 2012,02:16) What I am saying is that if JW doctrine has you convinced that there are no gifts of the spirit and that demons do not work in man as we see in the New Testament, then you are forced to deny any instance of either.
t8,Perhaps you missed it in David's long posts, but he has repeatedly tried to tell you that the JWs DO believe in demon activity in this day and age. They also believe that people can invite demons into their lives through the use of things such as Ouija Boards.
He is saying that HE differs from the JWs in this respect.
Okay, thanks for that. There is just too much info here for me to go through it all.Okay he disagrees with the JWs. My opinion here is 2-fold. It shows that he is a thinking person who is able to make decisions or form beliefs from his own experience and not just a blind sheep. However, I think his conclusion is also wrong because his belief is not my experience and he shouldn't be too quick to dismiss other people's experience when he should know full well that his experience is only a fraction of combined humanities experience and even humanities experience is but nothing compared to all knowledge and experience.
This image popped up on Facebook today. It is a quote from Nikola Tesla who as we are aware was a man way ahead of his time and has been said by some to many times the genius of Edison. Only now are people actually coming to grips with his amazing ideas and inventions.
I haven't checked that he actually said that, but sounds like something he would have said, if you know anything about the man.
Quote (david @ Dec. 07 2012,18:08) Well how do you know? If both God intervening, and God not intervening can look exactly the same, then how do you know, t8?
Physically speaking you wouldn't. You might be spiritually aware enough to distinguish between the two. But usually we are recipients and often do not question everything in detail, but react that which happens in life. I suppose while our lives are being reviewed in judgement we might see a whole lot of stuff we were not aware of at the time.With some events a physical explanation may not be possible of course.
Lk 4:3 The devil said to him, “If you are the Son of God, tell this stone to become bread.”
Lk 4:4 Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man does not live on bread alone.’’”THE FIRST TEST OF CHRIST SHOWS THE DEVIL TESTING HIM WEN HE HAS NOTHING AND HIS IN NEED OF WHAT HE NEEDS TO LIVE AS A MAN ,AND IN HIS ANSWER HE RATHER DIE AS A MAN AND SO LIVE AS TO GOD
Lk 4:6 And he said to him, “I will give you all their authority and splendor, for it has been given to me, and I can give it to anyone I want to.
Lk 4:7 So if you worship me, it will all be yours.”
Lk 4:8 Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God and serve him only.’’”THIS TEST IS EVEN MORE ATRACTIVE THE WEALTH OF THE WORLD THE GLORY THE POSSESSIONS IN THIS WORLD ANY FOOL AND UNBELIEVER WILL PICK AND FALL FOR IT ,BUT NOT THE TRUE BELIEVERS
Lk 4:9 The devil led him to Jerusalem and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down from here.
Lk 4:10 For it is written:
“ ‘He will command his angels concerning you
to guard you carefully;
Lk 4:11 they will lift you up in their hands,
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’’”
Lk 4:12 Jesus answered, “It says: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’’”WELL THIS IS SOME THING MANY OF MEN PUT THEM SELVES IN ;DRIVING TO FAST,DOING DANGEROUS SPORTS LIKE LIVE TREATENING SPORTS,TAKE RISKS WITH THERE OWN LIVES AND SOME TIME WITH OTHERS,(DRANK DRIVING)YES WE ARE TESTING GOD ,DOING THOSE THINGS
All those things have been preached by Christ disciples to stay away from ,
Quote (t8 @ Dec. 08 2012,20:00) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 07 2012,15:37) t8, Perhaps you missed it in David's long posts, but he has repeatedly tried to tell you that the JWs DO believe in demon activity in this day and age. They also believe that people can invite demons into their lives through the use of things such as Ouija Boards.
He is saying that HE differs from the JWs in this respect.
Actually there is a good lesson here. Your post was small enough to read and to make its point and I noticed it.Most people just don't have time to wade through mountains of information to extract a point like this.
I prefer these snippet posts myself, but understand that longer posts have their place too. But too many long posts is too burdensome for a person who has little time to spare as it is.
I think the lesson learned is that t8 just skim reads posts, looking for things he considers interesting.It's frustrating when you explain something to someone but they keep repeating the same mistake, arguing against shadows that aren't really there. It perhaps consumes more time than actually reading posts does.
Quote Okay he disagrees with the JWs. My opinion here is 2-fold. It shows that he is a thinking person who is able to make decisions or form beliefs from his own experience and not just a blind sheep. However, I think his conclusion is also wrong because his belief is not my experience and he shouldn't be too quick to dismiss other people's experience when he should know full well that his experience is only a fraction of combined humanities experience and even humanities experience is but nothing compared to all knowledge and experience. T8,
How odd that in this case, you actually would prefer that I don't think about it too hard and just believe what JW believe. I have extreme bias built into my life to believe as you do. The pressures on me to conform and follow the crowd, and just accept, are quite strong. There is enough pressure that the very idea of not agreeing with this feels awkward, uncomfortable, scary, dangerous, etc.
and the truth is, I possibly more than almost any other JW on the planet wanted to believe that there is real magic. Remember, I was the one who took up the hobby at the age of 7, just so I could know what “they” know. Now, I know what they know. And it is crushingly sad, and empty, and boring. I MORE THAN you, wish there was real magic.t8, I do dismiss anecdotal experiences because its my repeated experience and belief that people are easily deceived by such things. It's something I know is true. It's something I have experienced and been involved in. I also know that Anecdotal evidence is the absolute worst kind of evidence. It simply is. If someone says they can fly, but only sometimes and only when no one is examining it or even watching it too closely, or video taping it, then I would say that person is a crazy person, and almost certainly wrong. They might say: “I experienced it.” I would say: “people hallucinate. People falsely believe they are experiencing things they aren't quite often.” Let's set up a videotape.
It's bizarre in the extreme, that the one who wants to see demons work their magic, can find no such thing. It seems I have no reason to fear demons. It seems they can not touch me. It seems I am impervious to them showing any interest in me. I could duct tape 10 ouija boards to my body for a year, it wouldn't matter.
People see what they want to see. They see what they expect to see. They are easily deceived by themselves. They are easily deceived by others. They see what makes them happy.
Quote (david @ Dec. 10 2012,23:27) It seems I have no reason to fear demons. It seems they can not touch me. It seems I am impervious to them showing any interest in me. I could duct tape 10 ouija boards to my body for a year, it wouldn't matter.
David,Continue to believe they don't exist if you want to. Just PLEASE don't taunt them into proving you wrong. It is NOT an experience you will enjoy.
Just let it be.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 12 2012,07:18) Quote (david @ Dec. 10 2012,23:27) It seems I have no reason to fear demons. It seems they can not touch me. It seems I am impervious to them showing any interest in me. I could duct tape 10 ouija boards to my body for a year, it wouldn't matter.
David,Continue to believe they don't exist if you want to. Just PLEASE don't taunt them into proving you wrong. It is NOT an experience you will enjoy.
Just let it be.
Mikethis is so true ,and I know for i lived the experience ,I will not relive that again ,
stay with what is of God ,
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 12 2012,12:18) Quote (david @ Dec. 10 2012,23:27) It seems I have no reason to fear demons. It seems they can not touch me. It seems I am impervious to them showing any interest in me. I could duct tape 10 ouija boards to my body for a year, it wouldn't matter.
David,Continue to believe they don't exist if you want to. Just PLEASE don't taunt them into proving you wrong. It is NOT an experience you will enjoy.
Just let it be.
Hi mike. I didn't say they don't exist. But if they only do things that are just as easily explained by natural phenomena, not a lot to fear for me.Besides, if they have any intelligence, they would leave me alone, as me suddenly thinking demons were attacking me would only strengthen my faith (as it did for you, and t8, etc)
Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 11 2012,19:22) Mike this is so true ,and I know for i lived the experience ,I will not relive that again ,
stay with what is of God ,
Amen, Pierre.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 12 2012,13:06) Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 11 2012,19:22) Mike this is so true ,and I know for i lived the experience ,I will not relive that again ,
stay with what is of God ,
Amen, Pierre.
Now that we are done high-fiving each other, what are we referring to not reliving?It occurs to me that recently i was involved in what could be a very weird experience. Someone was vacuuming a hallway in a condo building outside the door. I peaked my head out as the person was walking back to unplug the vacuum. I twirled the vacuum around the cord twice and tucked myself back into my door as she turned around. Somehow, I think it was timed just about perfectly.
Now, she will either think:
1. There are pranksters in the building who have impeccable timing, OR
2. Magic, demons, unexplainable, aliens, etc.Imagine if she had previously been told the building was haunted. Her imagination would do the rest. If just a couple things like this happened to her, especially in a short time period, I would think she would be quite freaked out.
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