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Have no mkarvel;for satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
Therefore it is no great thing if his MINISTERS ALSO be transformed as the ministers of righteousness;whose end shall be according to their works.Are they for us or against us?Are they our enemies or our brothers. I consider them as infiltrators.
wakeup.
WAKEUP raises a good point. Would the holy spirit be helping out a group that has Bible interpretation if that interpretation or understanding of scripture is wrong? jW teach what they believe. If as some suggest, what they believe is wrong, then would Holy Spirit be helping them out, directing them to ones who have been praying for help?
Mike, Pierre, what do you think?
Quote (david @ Dec. 01 2012,08:36) WAKEUP raises a good point. Would the holy spirit be helping out a group that has Bible interpretation if that interpretation or understanding of scripture is wrong? jW teach what they believe. If as some suggest, what they believe is wrong, then would Holy Spirit be helping them out, directing them to ones who have been praying for help? Mike, Pierre, what do you think?
davidi do not see it that way at all ;
first God and his son came to collect the first fruits ,then the ones that will be in the first resurrection ,all others are deffinetly for a later calling (after the 1000 years are up),so what ever happen on this planet his controlled by God through his son and his angels ,to help those that are part of the first resurrection ,
this would leave all others in the state of wanderers only their true seach for God and his son can change that ,
but I can not point out wich one his or his not Christ will judge all of us ,so look up to God and deep in your heart and ask yourself ;do i really love you my God and your son ,so that i can be seen worthy of live in your eyes ,not mine ,scan my heart and tell me if i do wrong ;or something similar ,
and ask ;what his your live worth to you
Quote (david @ Nov. 30 2012,20:36) WAKEUP raises a good point. Would the holy spirit be helping out a group that has Bible interpretation if that interpretation or understanding of scripture is wrong? jW teach what they believe. If as some suggest, what they believe is wrong, then would Holy Spirit be helping them out, directing them to ones who have been praying for help? Mike, Pierre, what do you think?
David,Let's say that it was Mormons who led me to God. They did their part. The fact that I actually READ the scriptures for myself, and figured out that many things they taught were NOT of the scriptures wouldn't matter as greatly then – because THEY were the ones who led me to read those scriptures in the first place.
Let's say the Witnesses were the ones who led YOU to God at a time in your life when you were about to kill yourself out of despair and emptyness. And now, here you are, DISAGREEING with their “official” take on Ouija Boards and demons. Does the fact that you have your own interpretations of certain scriptures (that disagree with their official interpretation) lessen the miracle God did through them by leading you to take in knowledge of Him and His Son in the first place?
Whoever is not against us is for us, David.
Quote (david @ Nov. 27 2012,15:31) UNANSWERED: Posted: Nov. 26 2012,02:29
CONSIDER THIS:Hundreds of times I have read articles where a person is praying for help, perhaps in tears, looking for God, and then, guess who knocks on the door?
This is understood to be somewhat miraculous, a proof that God is at work, guiding them to honest hearted ones, who are seeking out truth.
What are the chances that a person would be praying, and then that moment, a person with Bible in hand would appear at their very door? It is miraculous, right. It is proof that God was guiding them to that door, right?
There are hundreds or perhaps thousands of these experiences. Sometimes the person is suicidal, given up on life, seeking meaning. Seeking a reason. Seeking anything. Seeking an answer. Seeking God. Praying, begging, desperately hoping for help, (for social contact to fill the emotional void in their life.)
And then the door bell rings. The person makes a connection in their mind. Is this a coincidence? How could it be? I was asking for this. I was pleading for this. And the door bell rang, with this lovely lady who read comforting scriptures to me. It was a sign from God. How else could it be taken. It is the strongest, the very strongest of evidence FOR THAT PERSON, and given that feeling, that miracle, do we think they will look for confirmation bias to back up their anecdotal experience, their miracle, the meaning that has now been brought to their life? Yes. They probably will.
t8, are these miracles?
or, is it a misunderstanding of math, statistics, and the human mind and its willingness to see meaning where there is none? (2 million witnesses going out on a Saturday means they should run into thousands that have either just been praying or are presently praying.).
Hits–remember
Misses–forget
You have to ALWAYS look at the whole.t8, a couple in service were about to quite, but one of them had a feeling: “lets do just one more bouse.” When they found jack in tears praying, about to kill himself, was it a miracle? Jack thought so.
What do you think?
————–
“Let no man deceive you with empty words….”–Eph 5:6WHAT DO OTHERS THINK? Mike? what do you think? Are these miracles?
IF NOT. WHY?
So, mike and Pierre believe these are miracles, or perhaps that God directed these JW to these ones through his Holy Spirit.WAKEUP believes that JW are infiltrators and that God would never use such ones to deliver a Godly message. (And so those aren't miracles)
We have two groups looking at the same events and one group believes they are miracles. The other (WAKEUP) doesn't.
WAKEUP, how do you explain these things if they aren't miracles?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 01 2012,11:19) Quote (david @ Nov. 29 2012,22:54) But, I would think that neither of you believe GOd is working through JW's.
Why would you think that? I don't agree with every JW interpretation of scripture, but “whoever is not against us is for us.” (Mark 9:38-41)
Whoever is not against us is for us.
This is true.But if someone is preaching another gospel he is not for us but against us,by just pretending to be for us.
Example: God uses even evilspirits to bring us to the bible.
That happened to me.
I did not believe in anything spiritual at first ,until God send an evil spirit to bug the family for ten years,but mainly my wife.
This is how I startd to go into the bible in desperation.After I had gotten some knowledge about God, I prayed and cast him out. Now this does not mean that the evil spirit is for us, God used it as a tool to draw me to to him. God also uses satan for his purpose,this does not mean that satan is for us.
But satan is using christianity to make it look as if they are for us. But infact they are against us.
wakeup.
Quote (david @ Dec. 02 2012,09:36) Quote (david @ Nov. 27 2012,15:31) UNANSWERED: Posted: Nov. 26 2012,02:29
CONSIDER THIS:Hundreds of times I have read articles where a person is praying for help, perhaps in tears, looking for God, and then, guess who knocks on the door?
This is understood to be somewhat miraculous, a proof that God is at work, guiding them to honest hearted ones, who are seeking out truth.
What are the chances that a person would be praying, and then that moment, a person with Bible in hand would appear at their very door? It is miraculous, right. It is proof that God was guiding them to that door, right?
There are hundreds or perhaps thousands of these experiences. Sometimes the person is suicidal, given up on life, seeking meaning. Seeking a reason. Seeking anything. Seeking an answer. Seeking God. Praying, begging, desperately hoping for help, (for social contact to fill the emotional void in their life.)
And then the door bell rings. The person makes a connection in their mind. Is this a coincidence? How could it be? I was asking for this. I was pleading for this. And the door bell rang, with this lovely lady who read comforting scriptures to me. It was a sign from God. How else could it be taken. It is the strongest, the very strongest of evidence FOR THAT PERSON, and given that feeling, that miracle, do we think they will look for confirmation bias to back up their anecdotal experience, their miracle, the meaning that has now been brought to their life? Yes. They probably will.
t8, are these miracles?
or, is it a misunderstanding of math, statistics, and the human mind and its willingness to see meaning where there is none? (2 million witnesses going out on a Saturday means they should run into thousands that have either just been praying or are presently praying.).
Hits–remember
Misses–forget
You have to ALWAYS look at the whole.t8, a couple in service were about to quite, but one of them had a feeling: “lets do just one more bouse.” When they found jack in tears praying, about to kill himself, was it a miracle? Jack thought so.
What do you think?
————–
“Let no man deceive you with empty words….”–Eph 5:6WHAT DO OTHERS THINK? Mike? what do you think? Are these miracles?
IF NOT. WHY?
So, mike and Pierre believe these are miracles, or perhaps that God directed these JW to these ones through his Holy Spirit.WAKEUP believes that JW are infiltrators and that God would never use such ones to deliver a Godly message. (And so those aren't miracles)
We have two groups looking at the same events and one group believes they are miracles. The other (WAKEUP) doesn't.
WAKEUP, how do you explain these things if they aren't miracles?
I'm not sure if t8 ever responded to this post.To all,
John 11:51
King James Version (KJV)51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
Was the high priest a disciple of Jesus or instead did Jehovah use a heretic for his own purpose?
Quote (david @ Dec. 05 2012,10:35) Quote (david @ Dec. 02 2012,09:36) Quote (david @ Nov. 27 2012,15:31) UNANSWERED: Posted: Nov. 26 2012,02:29
CONSIDER THIS:Hundreds of times I have read articles where a person is praying for help, perhaps in tears, looking for God, and then, guess who knocks on the door?
This is understood to be somewhat miraculous, a proof that God is at work, guiding them to honest hearted ones, who are seeking out truth.
What are the chances that a person would be praying, and then that moment, a person with Bible in hand would appear at their very door? It is miraculous, right. It is proof that God was guiding them to that door, right?
There are hundreds or perhaps thousands of these experiences. Sometimes the person is suicidal, given up on life, seeking meaning. Seeking a reason. Seeking anything. Seeking an answer. Seeking God. Praying, begging, desperately hoping for help, (for social contact to fill the emotional void in their life.)
And then the door bell rings. The person makes a connection in their mind. Is this a coincidence? How could it be? I was asking for this. I was pleading for this. And the door bell rang, with this lovely lady who read comforting scriptures to me. It was a sign from God. How else could it be taken. It is the strongest, the very strongest of evidence FOR THAT PERSON, and given that feeling, that miracle, do we think they will look for confirmation bias to back up their anecdotal experience, their miracle, the meaning that has now been brought to their life? Yes. They probably will.
t8, are these miracles?
or, is it a misunderstanding of math, statistics, and the human mind and its willingness to see meaning where there is none? (2 million witnesses going out on a Saturday means they should run into thousands that have either just been praying or are presently praying.).
Hits–remember
Misses–forget
You have to ALWAYS look at the whole.t8, a couple in service were about to quite, but one of them had a feeling: “lets do just one more bouse.” When they found jack in tears praying, about to kill himself, was it a miracle? Jack thought so.
What do you think?
————–
“Let no man deceive you with empty words….”–Eph 5:6WHAT DO OTHERS THINK? Mike? what do you think? Are these miracles?
IF NOT. WHY?
So, mike and Pierre believe these are miracles, or perhaps that God directed these JW to these ones through his Holy Spirit.WAKEUP believes that JW are infiltrators and that God would never use such ones to deliver a Godly message. (And so those aren't miracles)
We have two groups looking at the same events and one group believes they are miracles. The other (WAKEUP) doesn't.
WAKEUP, how do you explain these things if they aren't miracles?
I'm not sure if t8 ever responded to this post.
MATT.23.
But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye SHUT UP the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in YOURSELVES, neither SUFFER ye them that are ENTERING to go in.(blocking the way).14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, HYPOCRITES! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make LONG PEAYER: therefore ye shall receive the GREATER DAMNATION.
15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye COMPASS SEA and LAND to make ONE PROSELYTE, and when he is made, ye make him *TWO FOLD MORE* THE CHILD OF HELL THAN YOUR SELFVES.
Is Christ happy with those that cover the earth to block the way to the truth. And making them twice the children of hell.
They are a stumbling stone to the seekers,send by satan.Satan ones, used hard tactics,by killing the true followers,but now he use more soft and cunning tactics,by joining them.
Infiltrataing the churches,and blessing them with material things. They have been swollowed up BY SATAN to the max.JER.51.
44.I will punish BEL.(satan) in babylon,and I will bring forth out of his mouth that which he hath swollowed up; AND THE NATIONS SHALL *NOT FLOW* TOGETHER ANYMORE UNTO HIM: YEA;THE WALL OF bABYLON SHALL FALL.45. My people,go ye OUT OF THE MIDS OF HER(babylon) and deliverye every man his soul from THE FIERCE ANGER OF THE LORD.
wakeup.
So, WAKEUP clearly thinks those were not miracles.
Pierre and mike believe they were miracles.
We're they? And if they were not miracles, what were they?
Quote (david @ Dec. 05 2012,13:35) I'm not sure if t8 ever responded to this post.
No. I didn't respond to many questions here. There are too many and I really can't spend my days answering them.I will give this one a go as it is obviously important enough to you to repeat it.
Quote (david @ Dec. 05 2012,13:35) t8, are these miracles?
david, what we call miracles are likely perfectly acceptable answers when you can see the big picture.And given that there are likely higher dimensions that we cannot really fathom at the moment, there must be many logical things that happen that appear as magic given our lowly current status with our bodies and where they confine us to.
That said, God spoke the universe into existence. Is that a miracle. Well that reminds me of how we create cyber worlds. I use to build levels for 3D games and it required a SDK and then it was about applying rules. So you started with vertices or dots. Connected the dots with lines. Gave height to 2 dimensional planes, and then set rules with lines, like cannot cross, or crossing a line triggers this or that event. You then applied wallpaper to walls, floor, and ceiling that included skies, colour, water, lava, outside scene, or whatever. Then you populated your game with characters that each had their own rules.
My point is that if I was able to give life to one of those characters, then they would think many things were miracles. I could change his reality by hacking the code at anytime. I could change his reality by manipulating things so as 2 characters would meet.
Given that. I believe that God created all things with his word which is perfect. When he said, “Let there be light”, he was giving a command that in some way resembles a program that also utters commands such as “Let there be light”. These commands then run off to an interpreter and do the required task.
So is anything a miracle really. I think it depends on your frame of reference.
Statistically speaking, there is a high hit rate with certain things and perhaps God leaves many things to chance given that there is free will which he does not control, but certainly keeps it within a certain boundary. Perhaps outside of chance, God will intervene when necessary.
So a person by chance will be given the gospel x amount of times in his life. But God could also intervene if required. Maybe a person was going to commit suicide and God led a person to him. Maybe God didn't have to lead a person because someone was already going there.
I think it is a mix of both. To some degree God created the universe and then he left and it self organised given the fact that the whole thing sits on his laws. But God loves his creation and so he didn't leave to do something else but is actively involved because he is love. So yes, some things happen randomly or as the result of free will or others, and sometimes God organises stuff to happen.
All very easy for a mind who is infinite.
One thing that game creators use to find difficult was how to create endless landscapes that didn't repeat like we see in reality. This was solved by fractal mathematics and when you understand it, you can understand how God created the heavens and the earth to some degree.
Fractal mathematics is amazing. It lies on the premise that the shape or pattern of a thing repeats itself as you drill down to smaller and smaller parts of the whole.
A tree for example might have 4 branches going around the trunk, and then starts again with the next 4 and on each branch are 4 smaller branches that go around one circle of the branch and 4 branches that go around each of those branches and so on. I think this is how we divide up plants into different orders, by how many branches are present in one cycle of the trunk. So the further you drill down, the more it looks real too. A game that follows this pattern with the trunk and first level branches doesn't look as real as a tree that has this rule down to say 10 levels.
We sort of see this with a galaxy. With a black hole in the centre all the stars whiz around in a cycle. Then we have planets going round each star and moons going round planets and electrons going around the nucleus. Same pattern just different levels.
When you see the pattern, then you can create a simulation using fractal algorithms. Because it is logical you can create a landscape that is made of fractals and then have the algorithm slightly change or mutate and it builds landscapes that are similar and will only differ hugely given enough distance. This is what we see in the Earth for example.
Where I live there are lots of hills and dense native forest with houses and a city in between. There is an intricate coastline too. When I travel away, things are different but also similar in design. If I travel say 300 km, I am in a completely different world of volcanoes and low vegetation and as you drive you can see the changes slowly build up.
To a person who plays a game and spends 1 hour travelling in a line, he might think that the creator had to build every single pixel when in fact that is not the case. It is simply done by laws or rules once you get the ball rolling.
Quote (t8 @ Dec. 06 2012,03:29) One thing that game creators use to find difficult was how to create endless landscapes that didn't repeat like we see in reality. This was solved by fractal mathematics and when you understand it, you can understand how God created the heavens and the earth to some degree. Fractal mathematics is amazing. It lies on the premise that the shape or pattern of a thing repeats itself as you drill down to smaller and smaller parts of the whole.
A tree for example might have 4 branches going around the trunk, and then starts again with the next 4 and on each branch are 4 smaller branches that go around one circle of the branch and 4 branches that go around each of those branches and so on. I think this is how we divide up plants into different orders, by how many branches are present in one cycle of the trunk. So the further you drill down, the more it looks real too. A game that follows this pattern with the trunk and first level branches doesn't look as real as a tree that has this rule down to say 10 levels.
We sort of see this with a galaxy. With a black hole in the centre all the stars whiz around in a cycle. Then we have planets going round each star and moons going round planets and electrons going around the nucleus. Same pattern just different levels.
When you see the pattern, then you can create a simulation using fractal algorithms. Because it is logical you can create a landscape that is made of fractals and then have the algorithm slightly change or mutate and it builds landscapes that are similar and will only differ hugely given enough distance. This is what we see in the Earth for example.
Where I live there are lots of hills and dense native forest with houses and a city in between. There is an intricate coastline too. When I travel away, things are different but also similar in design. If I travel say 300 km, I am in a completely different world of volcanoes and low vegetation and as you drive you can see the changes slowly build up.
To a person who plays a game and spends 1 hour travelling in a line, he might think that the creator had to build every single pixel when in fact that is not the case. It is simply done by laws or rules once you get the ball rolling.
t8good quote, but what comes to my mind as I read your comment is that God created with only one rule; that is LOVE ,of cause we have to understand what God means of what his love
Quote (t8 @ Dec. 06 2012,08:09) Quote (david @ Dec. 05 2012,13:35) t8, are these miracles?
david, what we call miracles are likely perfectly acceptable answers when you can see the big picture.And given that there are likely higher dimensions that we cannot really fathom at the moment, there must be many logical things that happen that appear as magic given our lowly current status with our bodies and where they confine us to.
That said, God spoke the universe into existence. Is that a miracle. Well that reminds me of how we create cyber worlds. I use to build levels for 3D games and it required a SDK and then it was about applying rules. So you started with vertices or dots. Connected the dots with lines. Gave height to 2 dimensional planes, and then set rules with lines, like cannot cross, or crossing a line triggers this or that event. You then applied wallpaper to walls, floor, and ceiling that included skies, colour, water, lava, outside scene, or whatever. Then you populated your game with characters that each had their own rules.
My point is that if I was able to give life to one of those characters, then they would think many things were miracles. I could change his reality by hacking the code at anytime. I could change his reality by manipulating things so as 2 characters would meet.
Given that. I believe that God created all things with his word which is perfect. When he said, “Let there be light”, he was giving a command that in some way resembles a program that also utters commands such as “Let there be light”. These commands then run off to an interpreter and do the required task.
So is anything a miracle really. I think it depends on your frame of reference.
Statistically speaking, there is a high hit rate with certain things and perhaps God leaves many things to chance given that there is free will which he does not control, but certainly keeps it within a certain boundary. Perhaps outside of chance, God will intervene when necessary.
So a person by chance will be given the gospel x amount of times in his life. But God could also intervene if required. Maybe a person was going to commit suicide and God led a person to him. Maybe God didn't have to lead a person because someone was already going there.
I think it is a mix of both. To some degree God created the universe and then he left and it self organised given the fact that the whole thing sits on his laws. But God loves his creation and so he didn't leave to do something else but is actively involved because he is love. So yes, some things happen randomly or as the result of free will or others, and sometimes God organises stuff to happen.
All very easy for a mind who is infinite.
So, is that a “no”?Quote (david @ Nov. 30 2012,19:26) Quote I think if you were able to wash your mind from JW doctrine, then you would be able to reason better and have clarity on such things too. But you have to overcome these beliefs that hinder you. T8, you really don't have any idea what you are talking about here.
I am bored of repeating this. There are two separate things: miracles, such as the gifts of the spirit, talking in tongues, miraculous hearings. (They believe this has ceased)
And, we have also been discussing things like psychics and ouija boards and such. (They agree with you on this)Yet, I, who have studied both in detail, do not agree that anything supernatural is happening with ouija boards or psychics, or such things.
There. Your theory has just been destroyed.
Yet, you will repeat it again in a couple of pages.
What I am saying is that if JW doctrine has you convinced that there are no gifts of the spirit and that demons do not work in man as we see in the New Testament, then you are forced to deny any instance of either.So that means that casting out demons or any acknowledgement of countering real demon activity is not for this time. Lucky demons if you believe that.
We talk about the gifts of the spirit in the same breath as demon activity because many of these gifts are for countering our enemy and his hordes.
And if all this stuff is not for today, then you are forced to take the “impossible that it happened as you saw” stance.
I hope this is clear to you now.
david, please quote the question again.
I went back 3 pages and cannot see it.
I don't have time to search for it as it is getting late.Just one post with the question in bold if you don't mind.
Thanks.
Oh yeah you are asking if these things are miracles.
Well that is a hard question because I think in some cases it is divine intervention and other times it is random because statistics don't lie either, or rarely do.
So yes and no. Depends if it is divine intervention or not.
God does intervene, so where that happens you can call that a miracle.
God intervened directly with me once when I was driving a car. He saved me from a certain accident. So I could call that a miracle. Another time I was involved in an accident where my car was crushed in two places, with serious injury to the other car and I walked out of the tangled mess with not a scratch on me. The latter could have been intervention by angels or could have been luck if you will.
Both stories are quite amazing, but I am sure if I told you the first one, you would think I was lying to you because the only 2 conclusions is that I am a nut and hear voices, or that God spoke to me specifically with instructions that no one could make up that resulted in me being saved.
The second one was quite amazing too, but could be put down to luck if you were a skeptic. However it has a twist at the end of the story and after prayer something amazing happened there too.
david
Quote So, mike and Pierre believe these are miracles, or perhaps that God directed these JW to these ones through his Holy Spirit. I believe you are streaching thing over ,it was not in that intend that I answered you,showing you that the JW add nothing to do in it ,you just took a bias view towards what you like to hear and see ,
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