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Quote It beats me why you even believe anything in scripture as scripture is mainly experiences with God written down for our benefit. But then again, if you are doctrinally convinced that such things have ended, then it is this belief that shapes your perception, meaning for you it is indeed a matter of perception as you say. It was odd to me how relieved mike seemed when I told him that I believed that scripturally speaking, gifts of the spirit were “done away with.” It is like he thinks that because I believe that, I am basing this belief on that. I am basing this belief on reality, what is real today, what really happens.
t8, let me just tell you: my beliefs aren't based on indoctrination in this regard. I could tell you things and speak plainly, but would rather not. jW believe the same as you do about ouija boards, for example. t8, I am not exactly who you think I am. I rarely was. Anyway, for me, this topic isn't based on what the scriptures say or don't say. I am just considering reality, today.
Quote (t8 @ Nov. 25 2012,14:53) Not bragging or anything, but I just made post 12345.
Ed J, how long will it be before I make post 123456?Ten times as much, (one hundred years)
Hi T8,Sometimes you have me wondering if I'm even welcome here.
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote For me, God has spoken to me and demonstrated things to me in a powerful way and who am I to deny that which God has graciously given me. “For ME, I FEEL…” The trinity is true. For me, I feel X, whatever. It bothers me very time I hear such things.
Anecdotal.
I think it's time to explore the human mind.
Quote In other words I just accept what God has done for me, while you cannot step over the stumbling block of believing that these things have ended and are not relevant today. This belief of yours reinforces itself with self-perpetuating evidence in your perception because non-belief means you don't see any sign because you have not faith in the gifts of God.
I KNOW YOU WANT TO BELIEVE THIS.
I KNOW MIKE WANTS TO BELIEVE THIS.
You have it backwards. Everything in me wanted to believe. I searched these things out in an obsessive way, learning how it all worked along the way. And, as I said, if anything, I was indoctrinated to believe in things like ouija boards, not the other way around. Your argument of bias, is backwards. By all rights, I should believe in those things. I just can't justify it, after decades of searching.
Quote (david @ Nov. 26 2012,01:30) Quote In other words I just accept what God has done for me, while you cannot step over the stumbling block of believing that these things have ended and are not relevant today. This belief of yours reinforces itself with self-perpetuating evidence in your perception because non-belief means you don't see any sign because you have not faith in the gifts of God.
I KNOW YOU WANT TO BELIEVE THIS.
I KNOW MIKE WANTS TO BELIEVE THIS.
You have it backwards. Everything in me wanted to believe. I searched these things out in an obsessive way, learning how it all worked along the way. And, as I said, if anything, I was indoctrinated to believe in things like ouija boards, not the other way around. Your argument of bias, is backwards. By all rights, I should believe in those things. I just can't justify it, after decades of searching.
T8, For two decades I had confirmation bias working in the opposite way you describe.Magicians don't become magicians because they want to destroy magic. Magicians become magicians because they love it–that feeling they experience when they see something impossible–the tickle of your brain, seeing something so impossible, you just laugh. Beliefs tend to start with feelings. My feeling was a love of magic, all things mysterious. I very quickly figured out that most magic was just deception. I then figured out that almost all magic was deception. I then figured out that 99.99% or greater of all magic is just deception. That extra 0.01% is just in case I bumped my head as a child or am living in the matrix. But, that aside, magic is all about deception and self deception. It's CRAZY EASY to deceive ourselves when we want to believe something.
I find that many who have called themselves atheists actually were people that have always wanted to believe in God, but didn't have the framework or even the know how to do that. All that is needed is a spark of belief–any experience, coincidence, phenomena they don't understand.
Get a thousand monkeys typing…no, get a thousand humans asking and LOOKING for a sign, and half of them, their brain will find a way to create meaning out of randomness. Randomness experiments have been done that show this. I know people that see meaning where there simply is none. It really is about dopamine in your brain. Anti-dopamine drugs would make you have less of those “experiences” you believe you had. You wouldn't see them the way you do, but would see them the way your flatmate friend saw his life.
Belief, when based on anecdotal experiences that the person attributes to a higher being, are the hardest to argue against, because you are arguing a feeling basically.
Getting back to confirmation bias, while my upbringing taught me that gifts of the spirit were some away with, it didn't teach me that ouija boards are a result of natural phenomena. They are something to be left alone.
MY ACTUAL BIAS's GROWING UP
–I had an indoctrinated confirmation BIAS towards believing in that.
–and, I had a “I want to believe” feeling when it came to magic, as a child and growing up.It is the greatest irony that for the magician, the one who loves magic the most, there is no magic.
Quote Likewise an Atheist can make the same argument. He has never experienced God and has no understanding of him and that too is likely perpetuated by his unbelief. Somewhere along the way, you have to take a step of faith to even open the door. Otherwise if you do not seek, the door will not open either.
T8, if you are speaking a out seeking out real magic, I sought.
I didn't just look behind the curtain, but I studied the material, found the material it was woven out of, studied the dye maker, took a microscope to it, and then opened the curtain, at which point I found the real magic that was at work. Then, I blew up the entire building.
Quote david, kerwin made a good point. It seems obvious that your perception in this topic is completely altered by your belief that certain things have ended.
So God ends the gifts and stomps on demon activity so that it no longer exists, and yet the gifts appear to continue after they supposedly were meant to stop, so they are no longer of God, but rather demonic, except that demonic now really means some kind of physical mental affliction.
What did I get wrong if anything from my summary.
To me, it seems very very obvious that both you and mike WANT TO BELIEVE that this belief of mine is scriptural/indoctrination, as if it is just an idea that I was told, and can therefore be undone. Or, that I can be reasoned out of it. But, once you open up the curtain and see certain things, it's hard to unsee those things.
WHAT I WAS TAUGHT
I'm really trying to drive this point home, so that you can stop trying to figure out why I don't believe in magic, as if it was a belief that I as conditioned into believing. I was taught from early on, that those miraculous gifts of the spirit were done away with, being used to establish Christianity, the need for them ceased. The miracles where God steps in and helps a person, or you are guided to a person are still said to happen today, the holy spirit being at work, but this isn't like speaking in tongues or miracles of that sort. I as taught that divination, astrology, magic (MAJIK) voodoo, hypnotism, any uncanny power, ouija boards, all to be stayed away from. Understand this: for many/some witnesses, they would never buy something used or second hand simply because the item might be in some way connected to demonism. I'm not just talking ouija board here, I'm talking anything..a doll, a pair of pants.You MAY NOW STOP trying to label my correct understanding as indoctrination.
I will just refer you back to this post if you insist on trying to promote this very false idea.
Quote (david @ Nov. 25 2012,08:30) I searched these things out in an obsessive way, learning how it all worked along the way. By all rights, I should believe in those things. I just can't justify it, after decades of searching.
That is odd reasoning, David. Here is what you're saying:I personally have invested 30 years of my life into finding a “real” case of supernatural activity. Having found none in that HUGE amount of time, I have concluded that none exists.
But in reality, you, an individual person who has invested what amounts to an insignificant speck of time into this investigation, have uncovered thousands of cases where fraud was the real culprit. You have discovered that many people let their minds be fooled into thinking you predicted they'd pick the number 37. You have studied (and maybe even invented) some very ingenious methods of creating grand illusions designed to entertain and impress others.
But for you, one man, having studied this for such an insignificant amount of time, to rule out all supernatural activity just because you personally haven't uncovered any during your research, is close minded, IMO.
It is true that many people defraud others for monetary gain due to the overwhelming belief in supernatural activity. And that part makes me angry as well. But it would be close-minded of us to conclude that no supernatural activity exists today just because we're aware that in many cases, greed and deception are the culprits.
You believe this activity existed less than 2000 years ago, right? And there is no scripture that even hints at your claim that these things went away with the death of the Apostles. In fact, Paul explicitely warned us that our struggle was not against men, but against the supernatural forces of evil. I don't remember Paul putting a time limit on that warning. (Not to mention that I've personally had a couple of those battles myself.)
Bottom line: The fact that YOU haven't personally witnessed a supernatural experience is hardly “proof” or “evidence” that they don't occur.
CONSIDER THIS:
Hundreds of times I have read articles where a person is praying for help, perhaps in tears, looking for God, and then, guess who knocks on the door?
This is understood to be somewhat miraculous, a proof that God is at work, guiding them to honest hearted ones, who are seeking out truth.
What are the chances that a person would be praying, and then that moment, a person with Bible in hand would appear at their very door? It is miraculous, right. It is proof that God was guiding them to that door, right?
There are hundreds or perhaps thousands of these experiences. Sometimes the person is suicidal, given up on life, seeking meaning. Seeking a reason. Seeking anything. Seeking an answer. Seeking God. Praying, begging, desperately hoping for help, (for social contact to fill the emotional void in their life.)
And then the door bell rings. The person makes a connection in their mind. Is this a coincidence? How could it be? I was asking for this. I was pleading for this. And the door bell rang, with this lovely lady who read comforting scriptures to me. It was a sign from God. How else could it be taken. It is the strongest, the very strongest of evidence FOR THAT PERSON, and given that feeling, that miracle, do we think they will look for confirmation bias to back up their anecdotal experience, their miracle, the meaning that has now been brought to their life? Yes. They probably will.
t8, are these miracles?
or, is it a misunderstanding of math, statistics, and the human mind and its willingness to see meaning where there is none? (2 million witnesses going out on a Saturday means they should run into thousands that have either just been praying or are presently praying.).
Hits–remember
Misses–forget
You have to ALWAYS look at the whole.t8, a couple in service were about to quite, but one of them had a feeling: “lets do just one more bouse.” When they found jack in tears praying, about to kill himself, was it a miracle? Jack thought so.
What do you think?
Quote (Wakeup @ Nov. 26 2012,02:15)
Fake. This has been proven to be fake (a magic trick) several times in several different ways. YouTube it. This guy LOVES to edit. It's what mares him famous. Many many many magicians hate him.There is one thing about him. He, like Houdini, like so many magicians before him, are ready to fight anyone that exploits others with magic, trying to make them believe that they can communicate with their dead loved ones. Search: Criss angel uri geller fight. Criss's mom had just died and he was ready to ouch this guy who claimed that he could communicate with the dead.
You should perhaps google David copperfield flying. Watch the video. Find the patent. If you want, I can have you or its ring paper balls by tomorrow. You will be a foot away from those watching, and no one will understand what is happening. Search: David copperfield rose levitation. I can teach you that, and you don't have to buy anything.
(Floating across a building requires a lot more money and effort)
Quote You have studied (and maybe even invented) some very ingenious methods of creating grand illusions designed to entertain and impress others. I wouldn't say “grand”. Everything I invented, are just variations of things that already existed. I “independently” invented something that someone invented in the 1950's. was quite upset when I realized it had been done.
Quote But for you, one man, having studied this for such an insignificant amount of time, to rule out all supernatural activity just because you personally haven't uncovered any during your research, is close minded, IMO. You keep saying I am closed minded.
I WILL CHANGE MY MIND UPON BEING SHOWN ONE PIECE of real magic.
Will you ever change your mind?And it's not just me. There is a whole group of people that understand this. They span the centuries. And they understand it so well that they literally become enraged when people are taken advantage of in this way. You know, if Houdini was not known as an escape artist, he would still be in the history books for his attack against what was then called spiritualism. (Spiritism). He, being a magician, learned the methods of the seance holders, and replicated them. He waged a war against these people.
And again, I'm not ruling out all supernatural (spiritistic) activity–Just anything that has happened in the last century or on TV ever. I really can't speak for the 17th century or the 8th CE they for example, but having looked into the last century pretty well, I can't understand how the other centuries would be different or why they would be.
Quote It is true that many people defraud others for monetary gain due to the overwhelming belief in supernatural activity. And that part makes me angry as well. But it would be close-minded of us to conclude that no supernatural activity exists today just because we're aware that in many cases, greed and deception are the culprits. Mike, Ok. Just show me one example then. Or, we could discuss all the examples one by one. This is your method. I have time. And I actually would like to do this. It's a hobby of mine, I would enjoy nothing more.
Look at the post above yours. A guy floating across two buildings. (His Luxor levitation was much more impressive). This guy isn't actually floating. This guy hates fraudulent exploitive magicians, a thousand times more than you do. This guy doesn't believe in magic. Yet, he likes to do things that some people will swear are real. But he doesn't exploit people or play on their sorrow, and he never claims anything supernatural. I would say 15% of his stuff is edited, computer magic, which is why magicians dislike him.
Quote (Wakeup @ Nov. 26 2012,02:15)
WAKEUP, if you want to see things that will tickle your mind, watch:David copperfield portal.
Or,
David copperfield laser illusion.Quote You believe this activity existed less than 2000 years ago, right? And there is no scripture that even hints at your claim that these things went away with the death of the Apostles. No, there is a scripture that speaks of the gifts of the spirit being “done away with” and ceasing. The question of when, you may debate if you wish. The reason that it was with the death of the apostles is stated in all three of the “tongues” threads. I would go with the biggest one.
Quote (david @ Nov. 26 2012,02:36) Quote (Wakeup @ Nov. 26 2012,02:15)
Fake. This has been proven to be fake (a magic trick) several times in several different ways. YouTube it. This guy LOVES to edit. It's what mares him famous. Many many many magicians hate him.There is one thing about him. He, like Houdini, like so many magicians before him, are ready to fight anyone that exploits others with magic, trying to make them believe that they can communicate with their dead loved ones. Search: Criss angel uri geller fight. Criss's mom had just died and he was ready to ouch this guy who claimed that he could communicate with the dead.
You should perhaps google David copperfield flying. Watch the video. Find the patent. If you want, I can have you or its ring paper balls by tomorrow. You will be a foot away from those watching, and no one will understand what is happening. Search: David copperfield rose levitation. I can teach you that, and you don't have to buy anything.
(Floating across a building requires a lot more money and effort)
I wonder if the jerky movement when he is lifted up, and the sideways
Swinging movement is caused by the crane operator drinking on the job, or if that's just as smooth as crane operators can be.The truth is, for this video, there is a guy that examined the video n detail. He didn't even need to use extremely thin airplane wire or whatever. The video guy showed that its rather obvious that something was covered over. There is a mirroring of clouds where he was taking the images of certain clouds and moving them over to cover the wires.
I really prefer stage magic, as you know it's not just a guy with a computer and a bunch of stooges applauding and cheering.
To all,
Here is a case of possession that was documented between Oct. 30, 1671 to Jan 12, 1671. The “Reverend” that observed it documented it and approached it from a scientific angle.
It was a religious community and prone to interpret events by that point of view.
It also has a modern non-religious interpretation.
Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 26 2012,09:04) To all, Here is a case of possession that was documented between Oct. 30, 1671 to Jan 12, 1671. The “Reverend” that observed it documented it and approached it from a scientific angle.
It was a religious community and prone to interpret events by that point of view.
It also has a modern non-religious interpretation.
1671 ?
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