- This topic is empty.
- Posts
I will pass on one of my card tricks that anyone can do.
1. Write on a piece of paper: “The Four Pile”.
2. Take three of the number four cards from the deck, and place them squared up in one pile on the table. (Face down)
3. Take four sevens (or whatever) and place them squared up in a different pile on the table. (Face down)
4. Have your friend pick a pile.
If they pick the pile with the three fours, flip both piles over (keeping them squared so they can't see how many cards are in each pile) and show them that they picked the “four pile”, as opposed to the “seven pile” – just as you “predicted” and wrote on your piece of paper beforehand.
If they pick the seven pile, don't flip the cards over. Just keep both piles face down, and fan out the two piles, showing them that they picked the pile with four cards in it, and not the pile with three cards in it. Again, they have picked the “four pile”, just as you “predicted” and wrote down beforehand.
1. It sounds like you are attributing the effects of the demons that Jesus and his disciples expelled from various people in scripture to the ignorance of an earlier culture. It seems as if you're saying these people really just had schizophrenia, or some other mental affliction, and that they weren't really possessed by demons. Is this really what you're saying?
mike, about 3 or four times on here I have specifically said that that is not what I'm saying.
t8 continually has been suggesting it, and I keep correcting him directly.
I am only discussing events of today. It's really hard for me to make this more clear. I've said it repeatedly.
Quote 2. I think we all agree that no one here imagines that Parker Brothers insert demons into their Ouija Board product. There are some of us who see the Ouija Board, séances, and the Pendulum, etc., as conduits through which certain people DO communicate with demons, while you believe EACH instance is a hoax. You point out the million dollar offer from some magician, which is fine if the rest of us had ever known about that offer. I hadn't heard of such an offer until this thread, and I'm 48 years old. Is it possible that there are people out there who do communicate with demons through one of these conduits, and they've just never heard of this offer? James randi has been exposing people like uri geller for decades, and has had this offer up for decades I think.
Understand this: magicians know the tricks. So, few people actually try to get the million. And when they do, they are always embarrassed, and say: “I don't know what happened or why it didn't work.” It's really only people that believe they have magical powers and want to prove it at would ever know about it. You have little reason to know about it. I've known about it for 15 or 20 years.
Quote And let's say the girl in Acts, who accurately predicted the future through the demon who possessed her, went to claim this million dollars. Who's to say the demon would have performed to make her look good in front of millions of people? In most scriptural cases, it seems the demons aren't after the best interests of human beings, so why wouldn't they just stop performing and let the human they had been communicating with look like a total ass in the public arena…………. just for fun? Or perhaps just to make it clear they are not an animal trick who performs at the will of a human in exchange for a treat? Maybe that's why no one has ever tried to claim the prize through human possession. Mostly psychics.
And there you have it. It's not that humans CAN'T communicate with demons. It's just that none of them have tried to claim Randi's prize.
MIKES MIRACLE
Quote What I do know is that the time I used the Ouija Board, I was skeptical, and so thought of a question that NO ONE in the room would know the answer to – not even myself. I had no idea how much loose change I had in my pocket, much like I have no idea how much is in there right now. Yet the answer was correct, down to the penny. And none of us knew the answer was correct until AFTER the answer was spelled out, and I emptied my pocket. That does seem impressive. Doesn't it?
Every person that wins the lottery believes its a 1 in a million chance of winning, and is therefore a miracle. But there was a 100% chance that someone would win. So, no miracle there, DESPITE THE ODDS OF ANY SINGLE PERSON WINNING BEING 1 in a million, or whatever. You, had about a 1/100 chance of being right. Or 1/300. I don't know how much change you normally have.
Put yourself in the mind of e lottery winner. Just go with it. He has a 1/million chance of winning, so, it seems a miracle TO HIM. Maybe he doesn't understand probability. And so, because of his ignorance, it really truly seems like a miracle. In fact, it is precisely these anecdotal type events that you describe that create faith and belief in such things. Then, the stories are told.
DO YOU KNOW WHICH STORIES AREN'T TOLD? All the other ones where the person guesses wrong.
I could also say that you subconsciously probably did know how much change you had in your pockets and you were just accessing your subconscious. The IDEOMOTOR effect works on the subconscious. I just read somewhere that the human brain subconsciously takes in 11 ? billion pieces of information a second and only consciously takes in 40 pieces of information. This WASNT really hidden knowledge. It was knowledge that your conscious mind didn't know but your subconscious mind probably did know, you having out the change in your pocket earlier that day.
But even if we disregard that, going back to the math and probability–YES, for you, it would seem a miracle.
EXPERIMENT: I already mentioned this experiment before in this thread. Here it is again for you mike. I'll change it a bit. Have a hundred people guess how much change they have in their pocket. If we estimate that the average person has 1 cent-100 cents in their pocket, then 1 person will most likely guess correctly. Actually, it would be more than 1% because people often have some idea. No one will guess 3 cents. Anyway, for that 1 person:
AN UNEXPLAINABLE MYSTERY! We have just created an unexplainable mystery! Of course, it's just math, probability. It is totally expected if you understand math.
Mike, if you were the only person on the planet to ever ask a ouija board anything and you asked it that question and it got it right, that would be a 100% success rate. But, for very question you answered right, there are many more that are wrong or gobbledygook.
I GET that you have ALMOST NO CHOICE but to accept this as a MIRACLE, or so,etching supernatural.
A mathematician would not agree.
Go back to the lottery. 1 in a million chance that any single person will win. So, when a single person wins, to them, it seems impossible. But, there was a 100% chance someone would win. It would be more amazing if no one won, given the 100% chance that someone must win.
I correctly predicted or apparently knew that people were thinking of “37.” To them, a mystery. To me, not a mystery. To people who don't spend time with probability, the coins are a magical mystery to you, unexplainable.
If someone else guessed right and you guessed wrong, that person might be the one I am talking to now, and they might be the one who believes, and you might not.
For EVERYTHING, we must always count ALL the hits OF EVERYONE and count ALL THE MISSES BY EVERYOne. As a whole, they are statistically normal. When you look at only one slice of the whole, your perception is blurry and distorted.
Quote So for you to say that because a demon communication hasn't been successfully proven on video means that one hasn't happened is close minded, IMO. Not a closed mind. A mind that understands statistics and probability along with psychology, deception, self deption, ideomotor effect, etc.
Highly coincidental events or highly improbable events tend to create belief. And belief tends to make us look for confirming ideas.
Despite what I say, hang on to that piece of magic. I envy you.
Quote You have pointed out that magicians can manipulate pigeons and snakes to make it APPEAR as if certain things are happening. Okay. But in the case of the staffs turning into snakes, it is said the Egyptian magicians also did the same things by their secret arts. So if they turned staffs into snakes by fraud, then God also turned Aaron's staff into a snake by fraud – for it is said “they did the same things”. We know that elymas the sorcerer used “fraud”
I know exploitive magicians today use fraud
I know that magicians today can appear to turn a staff (really a snake in a trance like condition) into a staff by throwing it on the ground or shaking it.
When the bible says they “did the same thing” you can't take it to mean they did the exact same thing, otherwise they would have been using the power of God. Clearly, they were not. Either these sorcerers were using fraudulent methods (as used today) or they were somehow getting demons to turn rods into snakes. (Can demons do that? I know humans can appear to)
Quote David, I too was taken by “magic tricks” when I was young. I had some “magic” books, and some special card decks, like a Svengali deck. I still remember and use some of those card tricks to this day. And if by chance I catch one of today's great illusionists performing on tv, I am in awe – not at the “magic” they used, but at the extreme amount of time and genius that went into creating the illusions they performed. You and I often seem quite alike.
Quote You seem to be teaching us that “magic tricks” aren't really “magic” – but most of us here already accept that. Where you're going wrong is by trying to prove to us that certain encounters with real demons that some of us have had are also just simple “magic tricks” – carried out by our own deluded minds. I often think of this like Bigfoot or flying saucers.
Sure, 99% are faked and imagination, but 1% seem to be unexplained. And just because 99% of Bigfoot sightings are explainable, doesn't mean they don't exist. And then I would say: as someone who has spent their life tracking and looking for Bigfoot, I am pretty sure that 1% is also faked or imagination. I would say: show me any tangible proof.
The coin thing for example cannot be replicated. It can be replicated if you have 100 people or 1 person has 100 tries. In that case, it would work. Given that its so easy to make it work, makes it very much seem like it isn't magic, but simply 1 person looking at one isolated event and DISREGARDING the majority of events. (Think: Ed, picking out his proofs for the number thing). To Ed, great proof. To everyone else, to you perhaps, it is clear that he is just picking out and looking at the patterns that work and disregarding the rest.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 24 2012,03:43) I will pass on one of my card tricks that anyone can do. 1. Write on a piece of paper: “The Four Pile”.
2. Take three of the number four cards from the deck, and place them squared up in one pile on the table. (Face down)
3. Take four sevens (or whatever) and place them squared up in a different pile on the table. (Face down)
4. Have your friend pick a pile.
If they pick the pile with the three fours, flip both piles over (keeping them squared so they can't see how many cards are in each pile) and show them that they picked the “four pile”, as opposed to the “seven pile” – just as you “predicted” and wrote on your piece of paper beforehand.
If they pick the seven pile, don't flip the cards over. Just keep both piles face down, and fan out the two piles, showing them that they picked the pile with four cards in it, and not the pile with three cards in it. Again, they have picked the “four pile”, just as you “predicted” and wrote down beforehand.
MIKE, Based on the “magicians choice” principle, you seem like you should totally understand how this works. (I could teach you an actual good trick if you like, one that would seem so much more impossible.) 🙂I almost feel like advertising my youtube videos on here, as if to create a argument from authority type of fallacy.
I was never quite able to handle the “sleight of hand”. I was apparently too lazy to practice, practice, practice. So I stuck mostly with the mathematical tricks, such as:
1. Pick a number between 1 and 10 (or whatever number you want – it will work with any number).
2. Multiply that number by 2.
3. Then add 10 to that number.
4. Then divide that number by 2.
5. Then subtract the original number you started with.
The result is 5.
The result will always be half of whatever number you tell them to add in step 3.
Quote (david @ Nov. 23 2012,11:31) I could also say that you subconsciously probably did know how much change you had in your pockets and you were just accessing your subconscious. The IDEOMOTOR effect works on the subconscious. I just read somewhere that the human brain subconsciously takes in 11 ? billion pieces of information a second and only consciously takes in 40 pieces of information. This WASNT really hidden knowledge. It was knowledge that your conscious mind didn't know but your subconscious mind probably did know, you having out the change in your pocket earlier that day.
That is a possibility – one that I capitalized when I first mentioned this experience on this thread. (I said I didn't CONSCIOUSLY know how much I had in my pocket.)But, you seem to be 100%, without a fraction of a doubt, declaring that ALL Ouija Board experiences are void of demon communication. I think that is close minded, and wrong.
Quote (david @ Nov. 23 2012,11:39) When the bible says they “did the same thing” you can't take it to mean they did the exact same thing, otherwise they would have been using the power of God.
Not the power of God Himself, but supernatural powers like the powers God has (although God has these powers in much greater abundance).Quote (david @ Nov. 23 2012,11:39) Either these sorcerers were using fraudulent methods (as used today) or they were somehow getting demons to turn rods into snakes. (Can demons do that? I know humans can appear to)
Do you have any doubt that demons have power over physical things on earth, and the lives and affairs of the humans that live here?Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 24 2012,05:21) Quote (david @ Nov. 23 2012,11:31) I could also say that you subconsciously probably did know how much change you had in your pockets and you were just accessing your subconscious. The IDEOMOTOR effect works on the subconscious. I just read somewhere that the human brain subconsciously takes in 11 ? billion pieces of information a second and only consciously takes in 40 pieces of information. This WASNT really hidden knowledge. It was knowledge that your conscious mind didn't know but your subconscious mind probably did know, you having out the change in your pocket earlier that day.
That is a possibility – one that I capitalized when I first mentioned this experience on this thread. (I said I didn't CONSCIOUSLY know how much I had in my pocket.)But, you seem to be 100%, without a fraction of a doubt, declaring that ALL Ouija Board experiences are void of demon communication. I think that is close minded, and wrong.
We only need one experience that is impossible by human means for me to believe.Just one.
It's easy to find thousands that mean nothing.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 24 2012,05:26) Quote (david @ Nov. 23 2012,11:39) When the bible says they “did the same thing” you can't take it to mean they did the exact same thing, otherwise they would have been using the power of God.
Not the power of God Himself, but supernatural powers like the powers God has (although God has these powers in much greater abundance).Quote (david @ Nov. 23 2012,11:39) Either these sorcerers were using fraudulent methods (as used today) or they were somehow getting demons to turn rods into snakes. (Can demons do that? I know humans can appear to)
Do you have any doubt that demons have power over physical things on earth, and the lives and affairs of the humans that live here?
My problem is, that when it comes to “demons” having power over physical things, it seems to usually be concentrated around people that are mentally disturbed, mentally traumatized, beaten or abused or sexually abused or psychologically abused as a child.Think too of all the flying saucer sightings that seem unexplainable, but really are just natural phenomena that most people don't understand.
For the rods, your point was that it said they were doing the same thing and therefore both events were supernatural. Well I can just as easily say they weren't doing the exact same same thing, because Moses rod was miraculously changed by Godly power. Surely it was not the exact same thing for the Egyptian sorcerers. So, it was the same in appearance, or the same in some way, but not the exact same.
The oldest recorded magic tricks come from Egypt. Dedi was the first recorded magician. I believe he was supposed to be removing heads from one animal and putting it on other animals, switching heads around. David copperfield did this with a Duck and a chicken 15 years ago. You put copperfield just a couple centuries back and he would have been killed for sorcery. He actually owns one of the very oldest books on magic, a book that explains that the things which magicians of that time were doing were not by spiritistic means: “the discovery of witchcraft.” The name is misleading. It exposed the natural means by which jugglers (magicians) of the day accomplished their feats.
Quote And there you have it. It's not that humans CAN'T communicate with demons. It's just that none of them have tried to claim Randi's prize. –mike
Plenty of psychics have tried. I as just saying that people that believe they are possessed by a demon are unlikely to try to prove it. They would probably just be escorted to a psychiatric hospital where they can receive the needed help.
Do people who believe they are possessed also have some sort of magical ability? Or, do they just act strange?
Quote (david @ Nov. 23 2012,22:57) 1. It sounds like you are attributing the effects of the demons that Jesus and his disciples expelled from various people in scripture to the ignorance of an earlier culture. It seems as if you're saying these people really just had schizophrenia, or some other mental affliction, and that they weren't really possessed by demons. Is this really what you're saying? mike, about 3 or four times on here I have specifically said that that is not what I'm saying.
t8 continually has been suggesting it, and I keep correcting him directly.
I am only discussing events of today. It's really hard for me to make this more clear. I've said it repeatedly.
David,It it how those events are interpreted today versus how they were interpreted in ancient times.
Ancient: King Saul is oppressed by an evil spirit.
Modern: King Saul is bipolar.Ancient: Child has no breath of life and later has breath return: child is resurrected.
Modern: Child was in hibernation.These things do occur today but we in our “wisdom” interpret them differently.
Demon possession is ownership by a demon. Some are handed over to demons because they do not acknowledge Jehovah. These individuals are compelled to perform actions certain experts consider symptoms of mental disease.
If it bears the fruit of a duct then it is likely a duck no matter what labels our culture chooses to place on it.
Quote (david @ Nov. 23 2012,12:45) We only need one experience that is impossible by human means for me to believe. Just one.
2 When Jesus got out of the boat, a man with an unclean spirit came from the tombs to meet him. 3 This man lived in the tombs, and no one could bind him any more, not even with a chain. 4 For he had often been chained hand and foot, but he tore the chains apart and broke the irons on his feet. No one was strong enough to subdue him. 5 Night and day among the tombs and in the hills he would cry out and cut himself with stones.6 When he saw Jesus from a distance, he ran and fell on his knees in front of him. 7 He shouted at the top of his voice, “What do you want with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? Swear to God that you won’t torture me!” 8 For Jesus had said to him, “Come out of this man, you evil spirit!”
9 Then Jesus asked him, “What is your name?”
“My name is Legion,” he replied, “for we are many.” 10 And he begged Jesus again and again not to send them out of the area.
11 A large herd of pigs was feeding on the nearby hillside. 12 The demons begged Jesus, “Send us among the pigs; allow us to go into them.” 13 He gave them permission, and the evil spirits came out and went into the pigs. The herd, about two thousand in number, rushed down the steep bank into the lake and were drowned.
There is your one experience, David. Today, you would just describe verses 2-5 as the actions of a very strong, mentally unstable man. But was that really the case?
Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 24 2012,21:09) Quote (david @ Nov. 23 2012,22:57) 1. It sounds like you are attributing the effects of the demons that Jesus and his disciples expelled from various people in scripture to the ignorance of an earlier culture. It seems as if you're saying these people really just had schizophrenia, or some other mental affliction, and that they weren't really possessed by demons. Is this really what you're saying? mike, about 3 or four times on here I have specifically said that that is not what I'm saying.
t8 continually has been suggesting it, and I keep correcting him directly.
I am only discussing events of today. It's really hard for me to make this more clear. I've said it repeatedly.
David,It it how those events are interpreted today versus how they were interpreted in ancient times.
Ancient: King Saul is oppressed by an evil spirit.
Modern: King Saul is bipolar.Ancient: Child has no breath of life and later has breath return: child is resurrected.
Modern: Child was in hibernation.These things do occur today but we in our “wisdom” interpret them differently.
Demon possession is ownership by a demon. Some are handed over to demons because they do not acknowledge Jehovah. These individuals are compelled to perform actions certain experts consider symptoms of mental disease.
If it bears the fruit of a duct then it is likely a duck no matter what labels our culture chooses to place on it.
Kerwins, I am not really speaking here on the things of the past. I can only examine hard evidence today. If someone is acting weird and we give them a drug, then chances are it was that they were depressed, and not demon possessed.I am focusing on today.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
