Psychics

[terraricca]

david

Quote

Terrarica, I am just someone who is interested in truth.

what has the truth of God in common with the devil works or his world ,;it says that we have to leave it not to learned or to study it but run away from it

[david]

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Generally not good. Brought up an Atheist and my dad was violent. Didn't enjoy my childhood except when I was at least 1km in distance from my dad.

T8, I am sorry you had a bad childhood. For the past 3 weeks I have been studying the effects of hitting or spanking children and the learning problems, mental problems, and health problems, it increases the chances of later in life. Again, you shouldn't have been raised in such a situation and I am sorry you were. That's aweful.

[david]

Quote (t8 @ Nov. 23 2012,12:41)

Quote (david @ Nov. 23 2012,15:21) T8, How high did the glass go?  (When David Blaine appeared to levitate off the ground it was 1 inch, but people later recalled it being several inches or a foot).   Whose board was it? Who was the other person using it? We're there alcohol or drugs involved? What kind of glass?  What material?  How heavy? What were your hand positions on the glass? How well do you know the other person?  Is he a joker?  Does he like to prank people?  Tell me about him? What was your state of mind at the time?  How old were you?  How was your childhood?   david, you can't teach evil spirits to jump through hoops. David Blaine is not teaching spirits to do this. He is using magic or whatever other label you care to use. Whose board was it? There was no board. Read what I said again. Who was the other person using it? A friend of mine from New Zealand. I went to school with him. We're there alcohol or drugs involved? No drugs or alcohol involved. What kind of glass? An empty vegemite glass I think. Might have been Marmite. The reason was all the wine glasses were smashed from previous seances so we got desperate and resorted to using other glasses. They worked just the same. My mother was extremely angry about this. What material? Google Vegemite. It is a glass container about the size of a drinking glass, but a but narrower. How heavy? About as heavy as a normal drinking glass. What were your hand positions on the glass? Pinkie (littlest finger on the top of the glass only). That is how we always conducted this. How well do you know the other person? Haven't been in contact for years now. But recently connected with his sister on Facebook. I have this guy's email address. Is he a joker? No. I don't ever remember him pulling a prank before. He was Catholic. However, I was Atheist and I converted him to Atheism. Not sure what his belief system is now. Does he like to prank people? Not really. I am sure he probably has from time to time as anyone else probably has. Tell me about him? Your theory is that he is a trickster. This is getting quite entertaining watching you trying to convince me of something that is not true. This is how unbelief in anything works. Slap a label on it, give an aura of authority, and start asking intelligent looking questions that sway toward showing the person that they are deluded. What was your state of mind at the time? I was a teenager living at home. How old were you? 18 or 19 perhaps. How was your childhood? Generally not good. Brought up an Atheist and my dad was violent. Didn't enjoy my childhood except when I was at least 1km in distance from my dad. There you go david. What does your ideomotor algorithmic divinator calculator spit out for you.

From what you say, all the wine glasses being smashed from previous seances, it seems like you used the ouija board a lot.

May I ask roughly how many times?

[david]

T8, I don't “think he was a trickster”

I just happen to know that a lot of the time, this is what is going on, with the other person consciously moving the planchette or cup to where they want. (Or, possibly crazy gluing their finger to the cup, and levitating it)

I just want as much information as possible. A video would be amazing. But, we just have human memory.

So, your dad, beat you, I'm guessing? And this probably started pretty early?

[david]

I have a really really important question.

1. When the glass levitated, with his and your pinky on the top of the glass, was his thumb pointing down? I can't remember, you probably told me, but did the glass seem to float a couple feet in the air and then drop to the table or ground? Were there people to the side of you? We're they surprised? If there were people that were surprised looking, were they his friends or your friends or both?

Also, when did your friend become an atheist?

You were an atheist, and perhaps with the help of this miraculous phenomena, later began to believe.

But, you converted him to athiesm. Was his conversion to athiesm shortly before this levitation event or after? I would really like to know this.

[david]

Quote (t8 @ Nov. 23 2012,12:52)

Quote (david @ Nov. 23 2012,15:39) I have only said that ouija boards do not work by spirits.   Magicians as a group hate mediums, spiritits, diviners, sorcerers and anyone who is full of fraud in this respect. I can keep,saying that computers are demonized just as long as you can say ouija boards are.  The scripture above doesn't mention computers or ouija boards. david, what part of ouija board, computers, or any other man made object is irrelevant. What is relevant is the communicating with spirits part. Communication can be done by life forms in many ways. If I communicate with a dolphin using hand signals then that doesn't make my hands possessed with a dolphin spirit or something. If I communicate with a spirit, then the signals are irrelevant in that it is the act of communicating in anyway that is detestable. You need to be able to separate out what is relevant and what is not. So far you are making a complete hash of this. You so think you are onto something that you are just too excited right now to be able to reason, hence all the wild questions that are streaming from the last few days. Calm down a bit and you will be able to reason that objects are just that. And spirits are not to be messed with. Two different things.

t8, between the two of us, which one do you think believes the ouija board has magical powers?

I don't at all, in any way, to any degree, at all, not in the slightest, zero.

If you agree, great. But why create the impression that I disagree or that this is an important point.

Yes, let's stop discussing ouija boards then. As you say, what is relevant is communicating with spirits part. Ouija boards seem unrelated to communicating with spirits, so lets not discuss that.

Why do you think you were communicating with spirits? Do you think anyone can communicate with spirits? If that were the case, there would be NO atheists. If a person could just communicate with spirits WITHOUT the needed setup, why use the setup?

If demons don't want people believing in god, why do they show themself at all? Why do they play along? It seems to me that people think its like a telephone that you can ring and sometimes there is an answer.

I think what people find is that either it works for them or it doesn't.

You believe you took part in a spirit speaking with you through the movement of your hands or your friends hands. I believe that like elymas the sorcerer, who was full of fraud, the act of people trying to get spirits to speak to them today is fraudulent. At least, it has been shown again and again to be the case, by blindfolding the two people.

[david]

Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 23 2012,13:15)

david Quote Terrarica, I am just someone who is interested in truth. what has the truth of God in common with the devil works or his world ,;it says that we have to leave it not to learned or to study it but run away from it

For the record, I have never used a ouija board. So far, we have the two moderators that have.

Yes, terrarica, believe me, I will “leave” any demons I come across.

I just don't find the slightest bit of credible evidence for their being demons connected to the idea of the ouija board. There are so many things not logical about it. And further, it has been debunked by magicians and scientists for quite some time. Anyone can debunk it themself. It's an easy experiment.

If you believe that Parker brothers has signed some kind of deal with demons, and they are in a partnership with the ouija board, then you probably shoulfpd avoid half of the board games out there, as Parker brothers produces a lot of board games.

[kerwin]

Quote (david @ Nov. 23 2012,04:08)

Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 23 2012,07:17) Quote (david @ Nov. 23 2012,01:42) Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 23 2012,05:55) To all, Exodus 7:10 King James Version (KJV) 10 And Moses and Aaron went in unto Pharaoh, and they did so as the Lord had commanded: and Aaron cast down his rod before Pharaoh, and before his servants, and it became a serpent. Was Aaron a trickster? Exodus 7:11 King James Version (KJV) 11 Then Pharaoh also called the wise men and the SORCERERS: now the magicians of Egypt, they also did in like manner with their enchantments. What about the magicians of Egypt? From what I understand tricksters can accomplish this feat.  The fact they could have used trickery does not mean they did. ACTS 13:10 tells us that  Elymas the SORCERER was full of FRAUD and every sort of villiany. I'm not saying that Aaron used trickery or even that the Egyptian sorcerers used fraud.   I'm saying that today, it's impossible to find anything that isn't easily explained through psychology, physics, science, natural means. David, Quote I'm saying that today, it's impossible to find anything that isn't easily explained through psychology, physics, science, natural means. The thing is that the miracle of the staff to snake and many other wonders in Scripture can be explained the same way.  Even the resurrection from the dead as such bizarre things happen today. Here are seven such events. The fact they can be explained in such ways does not mean they happened so.  It is our culture that leads us to believe they do just as the culture of the time of Moses led them to believe they were the acts of spirits. Kerwin, the problem is you are too willing to believe…so willing that you don't question anything Take story number 6 6. The Russian woman who died after her funeral A 49-year-old Russian woman, Fagilyu Mukhametzyanov, collapsed at her home with chest pains last year. Doctors told her husband that she had suffered a massive heart attack, and they pronounced her dead. At the open-casket funeral, the “dead” woman heard mourners praying for her soul to go to heaven. Her eyes started fluttering, and, realizing where she was, she started to scream. “We immediately rushed her back to the hospital,” says her widower, as quoted by Austrian Times, “but she only lived for another 12 minutes in intensive care before she died again, this time for good.” Here, this article repeatedly says she was dead and doctors pronounced her dead.  But, if you click the link in that paragraph, it takes you to where the story came from, which says: “A woman died from a heart attack caused by shock after waking up to discover she had been declared dead – and was being taken for burial. Fagilyu Mukhametzyanov, 49, had been incorrectly declared dead by doctors but died for real when she heard mourners saying prayers for her soul to be taken up to heaven. Devastated husband Fagili Mukhametzyanov, 51, had been told his wife had died of a heart attack after she had collapsed at home suffering from chest pains. But as mourning relatives filed past her open coffin, they were shocked when the supposedly dead woman suddenly woke up and started screaming when she realised where she was. “Her eyes fluttered and we immediately rushed her back to the hospital, but she only lived for another 12 minutes in intensive care before she died again, this time for good,” her husband – who now plans to sue the hospital in Kazan, Russia – said. He added: “I'm very angry and want answers. She wasn’t dead when they said she was and they could have saved her.” Hospital spokesman Minsalih Sahapov said: “We are carrying out an investigation.” Being incorrectly declared dead happens. Look at the story before this one, the chimese one. On that story she was just laid down, not dead. No doctors. She WASNT dead.  These stories generally are seen to happen, not in the US or Europe but places without adequate medical care.   Actually read the stories.  Then study the stories.

Was Lazarus dead?

Was Jesus dead?

We can assume they were not but were instead mistaken for being dead.  

Such events happen even in the U.S., Canada, and Europe.  They are being investigated by medical experts.

Here is a case when the woman was declared dead due to the lack of brain waves for 17 hours, a stopped heart, and the onset of rigor mortis.  She was still on a ventilator while organ donor was discussed. It occurred in West Virginia.

Here are some cases of human hibernation where people are clinically dead and yet survive.

Jehovah brings the dead to life.  The how is up to him.

[Proclaimer]

david, I think this conversation is getting to time consuming. I usually draw the line when that happens. I will answer a few more of your questions. If you check my posts I have given you quite a lot of detail and more than enough for you to process.

It would be more interesting to me if the conversation perhaps took a turn toward demon activity and how it is recorded in scripture. Because at the end of the day, you don't believe that such a thing is possible and I do. So let's see what scripture says. Wouldn't that be the smart thing to do.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (david @ Nov. 23 2012,18:30)

I just don't find the slightest bit of credible evidence for their being demons connected to the idea of the ouija board. There are so many things not logical about it. And further, it has been debunked by magicians and scientists for quite some time. Anyone can debunk it themself. It's an easy experiment.

david, think about what you are saying.
Here is the voice of reason if you are willing to hear it.

People can debunk God in the same way.

I bet if someone setup an experiment to prove that he talks to people or that he exists, the result would be there is no God and thus God is now debunked.

Ouija Boards are not possessed by spirits. They aren't connected. It is communicating with spirits or the dead that is forbidden in any fashion. Are you not able to comprehend that? The Ouija Board is tripping you up here. It has always been irrelevant to this conversation. It is simply a method. Methods are not possessed. If you communicated with spirits by flipping coins for yes and no, would be the same thing. Some people make offerings to demons or prayers to them, same thing again. Perhaps some people even sell their souls to them.

In case you miss the point again, I will put it in caps.

COMMUNICATING WITH SPIRITS AND THE DEAD IS FORBIDDEN IN SCRIPTURE

Don't get hung up on your magician past or present to explain how spirits act. That is a spiritual question that is best answered by scripture. Not man-made experiments. Don't believe me, then try and prove God by setting up a video recorded experiment and I bet your results will be disappointing. Try and prove that angels exist or even Jesus in the same fashion and you have another fail.

Do you honestly think that demons would jump because you said jump to them in a scientific experiment. They deceive people, they don't change colour when you add water, or wait for you to take a video of a Ouija to perform.

How about looking at scripture. Surely that is an authority on the subject.

[david]

Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 23 2012,16:13)

Quote (david @ Nov. 23 2012,04:08) Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 23 2012,07:17) Quote (david @ Nov. 23 2012,01:42) Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 23 2012,05:55) To all, Exodus 7:10 King James Version (KJV) 10 And Moses and Aaron went in unto Pharaoh, and they did so as the Lord had commanded: and Aaron cast down his rod before Pharaoh, and before his servants, and it became a serpent. Was Aaron a trickster? Exodus 7:11 King James Version (KJV) 11 Then Pharaoh also called the wise men and the SORCERERS: now the magicians of Egypt, they also did in like manner with their enchantments. What about the magicians of Egypt? From what I understand tricksters can accomplish this feat.  The fact they could have used trickery does not mean they did. ACTS 13:10 tells us that  Elymas the SORCERER was full of FRAUD and every sort of villiany. I'm not saying that Aaron used trickery or even that the Egyptian sorcerers used fraud.   I'm saying that today, it's impossible to find anything that isn't easily explained through psychology, physics, science, natural means. David, Quote I'm saying that today, it's impossible to find anything that isn't easily explained through psychology, physics, science, natural means. The thing is that the miracle of the staff to snake and many other wonders in Scripture can be explained the same way.  Even the resurrection from the dead as such bizarre things happen today. Here are seven such events. The fact they can be explained in such ways does not mean they happened so.  It is our culture that leads us to believe they do just as the culture of the time of Moses led them to believe they were the acts of spirits. Kerwin, the problem is you are too willing to believe…so willing that you don't question anything Take story number 6 6. The Russian woman who died after her funeral A 49-year-old Russian woman, Fagilyu Mukhametzyanov, collapsed at her home with chest pains last year. Doctors told her husband that she had suffered a massive heart attack, and they pronounced her dead. At the open-casket funeral, the “dead” woman heard mourners praying for her soul to go to heaven. Her eyes started fluttering, and, realizing where she was, she started to scream. “We immediately rushed her back to the hospital,” says her widower, as quoted by Austrian Times, “but she only lived for another 12 minutes in intensive care before she died again, this time for good.” Here, this article repeatedly says she was dead and doctors pronounced her dead.  But, if you click the link in that paragraph, it takes you to where the story came from, which says: “A woman died from a heart attack caused by shock after waking up to discover she had been declared dead – and was being taken for burial. Fagilyu Mukhametzyanov, 49, had been incorrectly declared dead by doctors but died for real when she heard mourners saying prayers for her soul to be taken up to heaven. Devastated husband Fagili Mukhametzyanov, 51, had been told his wife had died of a heart attack after she had collapsed at home suffering from chest pains. But as mourning relatives filed past her open coffin, they were shocked when the supposedly dead woman suddenly woke up and started screaming when she realised where she was. “Her eyes fluttered and we immediately rushed her back to the hospital, but she only lived for another 12 minutes in intensive care before she died again, this time for good,” her husband – who now plans to sue the hospital in Kazan, Russia – said. He added: “I'm very angry and want answers. She wasn’t dead when they said she was and they could have saved her.” Hospital spokesman Minsalih Sahapov said: “We are carrying out an investigation.” Being incorrectly declared dead happens. Look at the story before this one, the chimese one. On that story she was just laid down, not dead. No doctors. She WASNT dead.  These stories generally are seen to happen, not in the US or Europe but places without adequate medical care.   Actually read the stories.  Then study the stories. Was Lazarus dead? Was Jesus dead? We can assume they were not but were instead mistaken for being dead.   Such events happen even in the U.S., Canada, and Europe.  They are being investigated by medical experts. Here is a case when the woman was declared dead due to the lack of brain waves for 17 hours, a stopped heart, and the onset of rigor mortis.  She was still on a ventilator while organ donor was discussed. It occurred in West Virginia. Here are some cases of human hibernation where people are clinically dead and yet survive. Jehovah brings the dead to life.  The how is up to him.

West Virginia? Well that explains it. Have you ever been to West Virginia? I have. It is a strange place. Weird stuff does happen there. Perhaps because weird people live there. :-).

Study the word “clinical” death
Then, study the word “biological” death or brain death.

Clinical death is in no way death at all. I studied this years ago. I have no idea why it's called that. Just because someone's heart stops, does not mean they are dead. If brain activity is still working (albeit working oddly, because of lack of oxygen getting to the brain after heart stops) the person is still alive. The person when brought back from (clinical) death, which isn't death at all, will have memories, jumbled up thoughts, weird feelings. You can experience the same by depriving your brain of oxygen.

Clinical death isn't “death” the epway we normally think of death.

“The dead are unconscious of nothing at all” (ps). But, consciousness still exists during clinical death. It isn't death. I don't know why it is called death.

I'm not here discussing Jesus resurrection or Lazarus being resurrected. But today, there are millions of stories of people's heart stopping (clinical death) only for their heart to start again.

These people were not (biologically/brain) dead.

[david]

Quote (t8 @ Nov. 23 2012,18:08)

david, I think this conversation is getting to time consuming. I usually draw the line when that happens. I will answer a few more of your questions. If you check my posts I have given you quite a lot of detail and more than enough for you to process. It would be more interesting to me if the conversation perhaps took a turn toward demon activity and how it is recorded in scripture. Because at the end of the day, you don't believe that such a thing is possible and I do. So let's see what scripture says. Wouldn't that be the smart thing to do.

No. t8. It would be a non-conversation as I am not arguing against it and neither are you.

What I am saying is that I, and the people who spend their life studying such things, can find no reputable evidence of spirit activity with reference to ouija boards.

Anecdotal evidence is the worst kind of evidence. It's not really evidence at all.
YET, ironically, for the one who experiences it, anecdotal evidence is the strongest evidence.

People do not understand coincidence, math, statistics, probability, science, physics, psychology, physiology, etc. and nor do most want to understand. Rather, they want to believe. Belief is like the default setting for the human mind. I absolutely know how easily people are deceived and deceive themselves. And each one is ready to defend what they believe to be true to the death, despite being wrong. They know what they know, despite not spending a minute studying it or questioning it.

At the end of the day, person X believes in the trinity and you don't. At the end of the day person B believes that Jesus could never be called an angel, but you do. At the end of the day, I don't believe that anything supernatural happened with that cup, but you do.

The first two things can be discussed because their is evidence and you can go back and look. But the cup incidence only really exists in your memory, so your memory is where I am trying to focus my attention. Why do I seem more interested in your experience than you do?

[david]

Quote

In case you miss the point again, I will put it in caps. COMMUNICATING WITH SPIRITS AND THE DEAD IS FORBIDDEN IN SCRIPTURE

Agreed! AGREED!

What does any of this have to do with your cup experience? You were not communicating with spirits. You were deceived by the ideomotor effect and your subconscious mind, (and perhaps your friend).

I would go further: “trying” to do so, is forbidden. Again, I don't argue that. I have never argued that.

Let me try to convey something: in the past, centuries past, people had psychosis, and other mental problems that also exist today, where they hear voices, and their brains are just messed up. Schizophrenia of the past, thousands or tens of thousands of cases were attributed to spirit possession. (I'm not saying spirits don't exist). Yet today, we generally do not attribute spirits to these things, because we understand mental disorders much better. A person in the past just knows that the person was possessed. How else could you explain such odd and scary behaviour? Sure, you can start using fancy words like schizophrenia, but surely that can't explain my experience. “I know what I saw.” I was there. And sure, I haven't studied mental illness for 1 second, but I know what I think I saw.

I strongly dislike anecdotal evidence, especially of people that have spent no time studying the thing they think they know.

[david]

Quote

I bet if someone setup an experiment to prove that he talks to people or that he exists, the result would be there is no God and thus God is now debunked.

No. Here is how I would compare it. If someone that didn't understand magnetism (magnetic fields) or compasses, was shown a compass, and they reasoned: how does the needle move by itself? It must be the finger of god that is moving it. This is proof of God. And then I came along and said: “study “magnetism.” And then you said: I know what I saw, the needle moved by itself.” And then I said: “people understand this, tests have been done. It's something called magnetism.” And then you said: “it's not about the compass, it can be used with a needle on a leaf in water, it's not about the method.” And then I said: “we have studied this, we understand magnetism.”

[david]

Quote

Don't get hung up on your magician past or present to explain how spirits act.

But I'm not trying to explain “how spirits act.”  I'm explaining that I know and have studied the people who spend their entire life deceiving people into believing that spirits are at work, when it is natural phenomena.

I don't know how spirits act today.

I can't speak on that.

All I can say is:

1. People are extremely easy to deceive, especially in areas they know nothing about.
2. I have personal experience with studying this, can provide tens of thousands of examples, and understand it pretty well.  
3. You haven't studied anything related to how or why this phenomena seems to produce supernatural results.
4. I want to believe and have spent most of my life wanting to believe that such things are real, and I would say I have checked under a countless stream of rocks, and could find no real magic today.
5.  If your story is real, it would be quite interesting for many many reasons, but we have only your memory, and you don't seem thrilled to discuss this.
6. I am not saying that any bible accounts are wrong.

[david]

Quote

Here is the voice of reason if you are willing to hear it.

I am always willing to hear a voice of reason t8. I am sorry this conversation is taking up too much of your time. I seem to have a lot of time the last couple days as I am home from work, and have a lot of time on my hands recently.

[david]

T8, I want you to step into my mind for a second.  I have spent a lot of time trying to get into your mind recently.  Here is a glimpse into my mind that may help you see my point of view:

At 7, I became interested in magic for the same reason everyone that becomes interested in magic does.  (Almost all magicians take up this hobby around the ages of 6-10).  I wanted to be special.  I was lacking a sense of importance, and when you do something that others can't do or don't understand, for that moment, it is magic.  Also, I really wanted to know how these magicians do what they do. If there was any way to move that needle with the power of my mind, I wanted to know.  I wanted that power.  Bought all those little junky plastic tricks.  Here is an experience at has been repeated at least ten thousand times in my life: after learning the secret, my mind would say: “oh, is that all there is to it”?  It's not magic.  It's science.  Or, it's not magic, it's a visual illusion. Or, it's not magic, it's a trick of the mind.  After some time, I stopped looking for real magic, and just wanted to know how things worked.  Love mysteries.  The problem is, when you solve a mystery, the magic dies, and it goes from a mystery to “is that all it is?”  Imagine a kid who wants to believe in magic.  You are thinking of me.  So, off I went to find magic.  I have to learn how he / they did that.  Oh, is that all it is?  It wasn't magic at all.  Repeat this scenario thousands of times.  No one thinks that a card trick or coin trick is done by spirits.  Yet for some reason, the same deceptions, when applied to the mind, start to have a supernatural feel to them.  It's the same stuff wrapped up differently.  Magic is like a kind of technology that people don't understand.  But not understanding something doesn't make it real magic.  Anyway, I can not find the real magic today.  If you have had an experience where you believe something happened because of spirits, I would like to examine it.  Because it now exists only in your mind, and because the mind is imperfect and constantly reshaping memory, it is really hard to analyse what actually happened.

[david]

Quote

Don't get hung up on your magician past or present to explain how spirits act. That is a spiritual question that is best answered by scripture. Not man-made experiments. Don't believe me, then try and prove God by setting up a video recorded experiment and I bet your results will be disappointing. Try and prove that angels exist or even Jesus in the same fashion and you have another fail. Do you honestly think that demons would jump because you said jump to them in a scientific experiment. They deceive people, they don't change colour when you add water, or wait for you to take a video of a Ouija to perform.

This is actually ONE OF MY POINTS. Do you think it is logical that demons would want to reveal themselves in this way, or that they would jump to your attention and answer your questions? Why would they help anyone out by giving any sort of truth? Sometimes what comes from such things is true, often it is not, but mostly it is nonsense that the mind can find a way to make sense of

The magic happens in the mind.

Shown random patterns, people find patterns. False positives. They are very good at making sense of what is nonsense. And they are extremely good at letting the boring unfulfilled meaningless memories fade away while embellishing and strengthening and even altering the memories that have meaning (the hits). Given that it is your subconscious mind at work, it shouldn't be too hard for your conscious mind to make sense of it. And given that your friend, who knows things you don't know is also involved, it shouldn't be shocking that sometimes things are revealed that you didn't know.

[david]

Quote (david @ Nov. 23 2012,15:13)

I have a really really important question. 1.  When the glass levitated, with his and your pinky on the top of the glass, was his thumb pointing down?  I can't remember, you probably told me, but did the glass seem to float a couple feet in the air and then drop to the table or ground?  Were there people to the side of you?  We're they surprised?  If there were people that were surprised looking, were they his friends or your friends or both? Also, when did your friend become an atheist? You were an atheist, and perhaps with the help of this miraculous phenomena, later began to believe. But, you converted him to athiesm.  Was his conversion to athiesm shortly before this levitation event or after?  I would really like to know this.

You skipped or didn't respond to my “really important question”

T8, ignore the rest, if your time is limited. Please consider this post.

[mikeboll64]

David,

1.  It sounds like you are attributing the effects of the demons that Jesus and his disciples expelled from various people in scripture to the ignorance of an earlier culture.  It seems as if you're saying these people really just had schizophrenia, or some other mental affliction, and that they weren't really possessed by demons.  Is this really what you're saying?

2.  I think we all agree that no one here imagines that Parker Brothers insert demons into their Ouija Board product.  There are some of us who see the Ouija Board, séances, and the Pendulum, etc., as conduits through which certain people DO communicate with demons, while you believe EACH instance is a hoax.  You point out the million dollar offer from some magician, which is fine if the rest of us had ever known about that offer.  I hadn't heard of such an offer until this thread, and I'm 48 years old.  Is it possible that there are people out there who do communicate with demons through one of these conduits, and they've just never heard of this offer?

And let's say the girl in Acts, who accurately predicted the future through the demon who possessed her, went to claim this million dollars.  Who's to say the demon would have performed to make her look good in front of millions of people?  In most scriptural cases, it seems the demons aren't after the best interests of human beings, so why wouldn't they just stop performing and let the human they had been communicating with look like a total ass in the public arena…………. just for fun?  Or perhaps just to make it clear they are not an animal trick who performs at the will of a human in exchange for a treat?

What I do know is that the time I used the Ouija Board, I was skeptical, and so thought of a question that NO ONE in the room would know the answer to – not even myself.  I had no idea how much loose change I had in my pocket, much like I have no idea how much is in there right now.   Yet the answer was correct, down to the penny.  And none of us knew the answer was correct until AFTER the answer was spelled out, and I emptied my pocket.

So for you to say that because a demon communication hasn't been successfully proven on video means that one hasn't happened is close minded, IMO.

You have brought up that a sorcerer in scripture used fraud.  Okay.  Then I believe that particular man was using fraud.  But was the girl in Acts said to be using fraud?  

You have pointed out that magicians can manipulate pigeons and snakes to make it APPEAR as if certain things are happening.  Okay.  But in the case of the staffs turning into snakes, it is said the Egyptian magicians also did the same things by their secret arts.  So if they turned staffs into snakes by fraud, then God also turned Aaron's staff into a snake by fraud – for it is said “they did the same things”.

Plus, it would be quite an illusion to turn all the waters in Egypt into blood – yet the Egyptian magicians did this.  And can you imagine an illusion that would fill the entire land with frogs?  The Egyptian magicians did this also.  (Remember that in regard to these two signs, it was said that the Egyptian magicians did the same thing as God did through Aaron.  So if they were practicing fraud, then so was God.)

David, I too was taken by “magic tricks” when I was young.  I had some “magic” books, and some special card decks, like a Svengali deck.  I still remember and use some of those card tricks to this day.  And if by chance I catch one of today's great illusionists performing on tv, I am in awe – not at the “magic” they used, but at the extreme amount of time and genius that went into creating the illusions they performed.

You seem to be teaching us that “magic tricks” aren't really “magic” – but most of us here already accept that.  Where you're going wrong is by trying to prove to us that certain encounters with real demons that some of us have had are also just simple “magic tricks” – carried out by our own deluded minds.

I think you are wrong on that account.

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