- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Quote (942767 @ Aug. 19 2010,23:04) Hi Lu: “Unbegotten God? Where do you come up with this. Certainly, there is nothing in the scriptures that indicates this.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty,
If God always existed then He was not begotten by anyone…right? Therefore He is the unbegotten God.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 20 2010,14:49) Quote (942767 @ Aug. 20 2010,14:27) Hi Mike: When was this spoken to Jesus?
Quote Hebrews 1:4Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. 5For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
6And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
When did God become his Father? You say that he was in “the Form of God” prior to his birth into this world. Was he a Son then or when Mike?
Love in Christ,
Marty
God became his Father before the ages.And yes he was God's Son from the moment God caused him to exist.
He was never God Himself then, nor is he now, nor will he ever be. He has always been God's Son from the moment God begot him.
And you quoted this:
Quote 6And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. What does the “AGAIN” mean here Marty? Pauls talks of Jesus' second coming here. Jesus' second coming will be the SECOND time that God brought His firstbegotten INTO THE WORLD.
Can't you see that?
mike
No Mike, I can't see that. No, not at all. Jesus was begotten of God in the womb of the virgin Mary, and he became God's Son then under the law of Moses, and at the age of 30 years old, he sent him into the world as His Christ.He was the firstbegotten of God at that time. No one else had been begotten of God prior to this, and no one has ever been begotten of him in the womb of a woman and no one will ever be. He is unique in this as God's Only Begotten Son.
But we, because of his sacrifice, are begotten in the Spirit from the dead, and baptized by this Spirit into this one body.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (Lightenup @ Aug. 20 2010,15:10) Quote (942767 @ Aug. 19 2010,23:04) Hi Lu: “Unbegotten God? Where do you come up with this. Certainly, there is nothing in the scriptures that indicates this.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty,
If God always existed then He was not begotten by anyone…right? Therefore He is the unbegotten God.
There is nothing in the scripture about an “unbegotten God”, nor is there a begotten God.Quote 1 Co 8:6But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. Quote 1 Timothy 2:5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ Aug. 19 2010,23:02) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 20 2010,14:51) Quote (942767 @ Aug. 19 2010,18:55) Hi Mike: If Jesus was begotten prior to his birth from the virgin Mary, please show me by the scriptures that it is so, and please tell me how he is begotten, from Himself or from whom? How, Mike, how? I can't seem to get my mind to wrap around that at all.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Hi Marty,
What do you think “firstborn of all creation” means?
What do you think it means when the firstborn created all things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible?
Mary wasn't there when all things were being created but the Son of God was or else He couldn't have created all things. If He wasn't born until Mary, He couldn't have been the firstborn of all creation. He couldn't have been the only begotten Son that was sent.He came forth from the Father (who is the unbegotten God), as His SON, His Firstborn before creation.
Hi LU:Firstborn of all creation means that he was the “firsborn of God” do you know anyone who was born of God prior to Jesus being born of God?
And it also means that He is God's heir as his “Firstborn”.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty,
Right, He is the first born of God but you don't seem to understand that it was that firstborn that created all things in heaven and on earth Col 1. This firstborn is not what came out of Mary and then created all things in heaven and on earth because all things were already created. The Firstborn had to have been born before creation. His Father was God who always existed and He (the Father) begat another of His kind, an exact representation of His (the Father's) nature Heb 1:3.Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 19 2010,22:51) Quote (942767 @ Aug. 19 2010,18:55) Hi Mike: If Jesus was begotten prior to his birth from the virgin Mary, please show me by the scriptures that it is so, and please tell me how he is begotten, from Himself or from whom? How, Mike, how? I can't seem to get my mind to wrap around that at all.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Hi Marty,
What do you think “firstborn of all creation” means?
What do you think it means when the firstborn created all things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible?
Mary wasn't there when all things were being created but the Son of God was or else He couldn't have created all things. If He wasn't born until Mary, He couldn't have been the firstborn of all creation. He couldn't have been the only begotten Son that was sent.He came forth from the Father (who is the unbegotten God), as His SON, His Firstborn before creation.
KathiIf you are the firstborn “OF” something then you are part of it.
If I am the firstborn in my family then I am part of the family and in fact of the nature of my family which is human.
If Jesus is the “firstborn “OF” creation”, then that would mean he is “OF” the creation and part of it.
Jesus is not “OF” the created order. By him all things came into being. John 1:1-3
Jesus being the firstborn is the Hebrew way of saying he has the preeminence over all and Paul confirms the use of the word “firstborn” (prōtotokos) a couple of verses later when he says “And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, “the firstborn (prōtotokos) from the dead; THAT IN ALL THINGS HE MIGHT HAVE THE PREEMINENCE“. Col 1:18
AT Robertson states…
The first born (prwtotoko). Predicate adjective again and anarthrous. “This passage is parallel to the Logo passage in John 1:1-18 and to Hebrews 1:1-4 as well as Philippians 2:5-11 in which these three writers (John, author of Hebrews, Paul) give the high conception of the Person of Christ (both Son of God and Son of Man) found also in the Synoptic Gospels and even in Q (the Father, the Son). This word (LXX and N.T.) can no longer be considered purely “Biblical” (Thayer), since it is found In inscriptions (Deissmann, Light, etc., p. 91) and in the papyri (Moulton and Milligan, Vocabulary, etc.). See it already in Luke 2:7 and Aleph for Matthew 1:25 ; Romans 8:29 . “The use of this word does not show what Arius argued that Paul regarded Christ as a creature like “all creation” (pash ktisew, by metonomy the act regarded as result). It is rather the comparative (superlative) force of prwto that is used (first-born of all creation) as in Colossians 1:18 ; Romans 8:29 ; Hebrews 1:6 ; Hebrews 12:23 ; Revelation 1:5 . Paul is here refuting the Gnostics who pictured Christ as one of the aeons by placing him before “all creation” (angels and men). Like eikwn we find prwtotoko in the Alexandrian vocabulary of the Logo teaching (Philo) as well as in the LXX. “Paul takes both words to help express the deity of Jesus Christ in his relation to the Father as eikwn (Image) and to the universe as prwtotoko (First-born).
The NET states concerning the use of the word “Firstborn”…
The Greek term πρωτότοκος (prwtotokos) could refer either to first in order of time, such as a first born child, or it could refer to one who is preeminent in rank. M. J. Harris, Colossians and Philemon (EGGNT), 43, expresses the meaning of the word well: “The ‘firstborn’ was either the eldest child in a family or a person of preeminent rank. “The use of this term to describe the Davidic king in Ps 88:28 LXX (=Ps 89:27 EVV), ‘I will also appoint him my firstborn (πρωτότοκον), the most exalted of the kings of the earth,’ INDICATES THAT IT CAN DENOTE SUPREMACY IN RANK AS WELL AS PRIORITY IN TIME. But whether the πρωτό- element in the word denotes time, rank, or both, the significance of the -τοκος element as indicating birth or origin (from τίκτω, give birth to) has been virtually lost except in ref. to lit. birth.” “In Col 1:15 the emphasis is on the priority of Jesus’ rank as over and above creation (cf. 1:16 and the “for” clause referring to Jesus as Creator).
29tn The genitive construction πάσης κτίσεως (pash” ktisew”) is a genitive of subordination and is therefore translated as “OVER ALL CREATION.” See ExSyn 103-4.
WJ
Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 19 2010,23:20) Firstborn of all creation means that he was the “firsborn of God” do you know anyone who was born of God prior to Jesus being born of God?
KathiBut Jesus is the “Only Begotten Son” right, so there is no other of his kind, right?
Firstborn here means “Preeminence”.
WJ
Quote (942767 @ Aug. 19 2010,23:17) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 20 2010,15:10) Quote (942767 @ Aug. 19 2010,23:04) Hi Lu: “Unbegotten God? Where do you come up with this. Certainly, there is nothing in the scriptures that indicates this.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty,
If God always existed then He was not begotten by anyone…right? Therefore He is the unbegotten God.
There is nothing in the scripture about an “unbegotten God”, nor is there a begotten God.Quote 1 Co 8:6But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. Quote 1 Timothy 2:5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty,
Is there anything in scripture about the Most High God being begotten by anyone? If not, then it is reasonable to say that the Most High God was unbegotten. See.Then, if that unbegotten God has an only begotten Son who is the exact representation of His nature, and like begets like (by God's design)…by reason you can see that God beget God, not less than God. The difference would be that one is unbegotten and another is begotten.
Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 19 2010,23:28) Quote (942767 @ Aug. 19 2010,23:17) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 20 2010,15:10) Quote (942767 @ Aug. 19 2010,23:04) Hi Lu: “Unbegotten God? Where do you come up with this. Certainly, there is nothing in the scriptures that indicates this.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty,
If God always existed then He was not begotten by anyone…right? Therefore He is the unbegotten God.
There is nothing in the scripture about an “unbegotten God”, nor is there a begotten God.Quote 1 Co 8:6But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. Quote 1 Timothy 2:5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty,
Is there anything in scripture about the Most High God being begotten by anyone? If not, then it is reasonable to say that the Most High God was unbegotten. See.Then, if that unbegotten God has an only begotten Son who is the exact representation of His nature, and like begets like (by God's design)…by reason you can see that God beget God, not less than God. The difference would be that one is unbegotten and another is begotten.
Hi AllSo in other words we have 2 infinitely equal Gods.
We know that is not what the scriptures teach.
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 19 2010,23:22) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 19 2010,22:51) Quote (942767 @ Aug. 19 2010,18:55) Hi Mike: If Jesus was begotten prior to his birth from the virgin Mary, please show me by the scriptures that it is so, and please tell me how he is begotten, from Himself or from whom? How, Mike, how? I can't seem to get my mind to wrap around that at all.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Hi Marty,
What do you think “firstborn of all creation” means?
What do you think it means when the firstborn created all things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible?
Mary wasn't there when all things were being created but the Son of God was or else He couldn't have created all things. If He wasn't born until Mary, He couldn't have been the firstborn of all creation. He couldn't have been the only begotten Son that was sent.He came forth from the Father (who is the unbegotten God), as His SON, His Firstborn before creation.
KathiIf you are the firstborn “OF” something then you are part of it.
If I am the firstborn in my family then I am part of the family and in fact of the nature of my family which is human.
If Jesus is the “firstborn “OF” creation”, then that would mean he is “OF” the creation and part of it.
Jesus is not “OF” the created order. By him all things came into being. John 1:1-3
Jesus being the firstborn is the Hebrew way of saying he has the preeminence over all and Paul confirms the use of the word “firstborn” (prōtotokos) a couple of verses later when he says “And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, “the firstborn (prōtotokos) from the dead; THAT IN ALL THINGS HE MIGHT HAVE THE PREEMINENCE“. Col 1:18
AT Robertson states…
The first born (prwtotoko). Predicate adjective again and anarthrous. “This passage is parallel to the Logo passage in John 1:1-18 and to Hebrews 1:1-4 as well as Philippians 2:5-11 in which these three writers (John, author of Hebrews, Paul) give the high conception of the Person of Christ (both Son of God and Son of Man) found also in the Synoptic Gospels and even in Q (the Father, the Son). This word (LXX and N.T.) can no longer be considered purely “Biblical” (Thayer), since it is found In inscriptions (Deissmann, Light, etc., p. 91) and in the papyri (Moulton and Milligan, Vocabulary, etc.). See it already in Luke 2:7 and Aleph for Matthew 1:25 ; Romans 8:29 . “The use of this word does not show what Arius argued that Paul regarded Christ as a creature like “all creation” (pash ktisew, by metonomy the act regarded as result). It is rather the comparative (superlative) force of prwto that is used (first-born of all creation) as in Colossians 1:18 ; Romans 8:29 ; Hebrews 1:6 ; Hebrews 12:23 ; Revelation 1:5 . Paul is here refuting the Gnostics who pictured Christ as one of the aeons by placing him before “all creation” (angels and men). Like eikwn we find prwtotoko in the Alexandrian vocabulary of the Logo teaching (Philo) as well as in the LXX. “Paul takes both words to help express the deity of Jesus Christ in his relation to the Father as eikwn (Image) and to the universe as prwtotoko (First-born).
The NET states concerning the use of the word “Firstborn”…
The Greek term πρωτότοκος (prwtotokos) could refer either to first in order of time, such as a first born child, or it could refer to one who is preeminent in rank. M. J. Harris, Colossians and Philemon (EGGNT), 43, expresses the meaning of the word well: “The ‘firstborn’ was either the eldest child in a family or a person of preeminent rank. “The use of this term to describe the Davidic king in Ps 88:28 LXX (=Ps 89:27 EVV), ‘I will also appoint him my firstborn (πρωτότοκον), the most exalted of the kings of the earth,’ INDICATES THAT IT CAN DENOTE SUPREMACY IN RANK AS WELL AS PRIORITY IN TIME. But whether the πρωτό- element in the word denotes time, rank, or both, the significance of the -τοκος element as indicating birth or origin (from τίκτω, give birth to) has been virtually lost except in ref. to lit. birth.” “In Col 1:15 the emphasis is on the priority of Jesus’ rank as over and above creation (cf. 1:16 and the “for” clause referring to Jesus as Creator).
29tn The genitive construction πάσης κτίσεως (pash” ktisew”) is a genitive of subordination and is therefore translated as “OVER ALL CREATION.” See ExSyn 103-4.
WJ
Keith,
A firstborn implies that he came from another…hence he would NOT be the first of his kind as created things are. He is the first to be born of another of/over all creation. The benefit of being the firstborn is preeminence but firstborn doesn't mean preeminent. Preeminence is just a benefit.I think we need a topic entitled “Firstborn of/over all creation as per the early church fathers” and see if they understand that the Son was generated first from God of all creation. That might help shed some light. If they do not say or imply that the Son came forth from God and then after that all things were created, I will rethink my opinion. But if they do, then you might want to reconsider being dogmatic about firstborn meaning 'preeminent.'
Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 19 2010,23:42) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 19 2010,23:22) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 19 2010,22:51) Quote (942767 @ Aug. 19 2010,18:55) Hi Mike: If Jesus was begotten prior to his birth from the virgin Mary, please show me by the scriptures that it is so, and please tell me how he is begotten, from Himself or from whom? How, Mike, how? I can't seem to get my mind to wrap around that at all.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Hi Marty,
What do you think “firstborn of all creation” means?
What do you think it means when the firstborn created all things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible?
Mary wasn't there when all things were being created but the Son of God was or else He couldn't have created all things. If He wasn't born until Mary, He couldn't have been the firstborn of all creation. He couldn't have been the only begotten Son that was sent.He came forth from the Father (who is the unbegotten God), as His SON, His Firstborn before creation.
KathiIf you are the firstborn “OF” something then you are part of it.
If I am the firstborn in my family then I am part of the family and in fact of the nature of my family which is human.
If Jesus is the “firstborn “OF” creation”, then that would mean he is “OF” the creation and part of it.
Jesus is not “OF” the created order. By him all things came into being. John 1:1-3
Jesus being the firstborn is the Hebrew way of saying he has the preeminence over all and Paul confirms the use of the word “firstborn” (prōtotokos) a couple of verses later when he says “And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, “the firstborn (prōtotokos) from the dead; THAT IN ALL THINGS HE MIGHT HAVE THE PREEMINENCE“. Col 1:18
AT Robertson states…
The first born (prwtotoko). Predicate adjective again and anarthrous. “This passage is parallel to the Logo passage in John 1:1-18 and to Hebrews 1:1-4 as well as Philippians 2:5-11 in which these three writers (John, author of Hebrews, Paul) give the high conception of the Person of Christ (both Son of God and Son of Man) found also in the Synoptic Gospels and even in Q (the Father, the Son). This word (LXX and N.T.) can no longer be considered purely “Biblical” (Thayer), since it is found In inscriptions (Deissmann, Light, etc., p. 91) and in the papyri (Moulton and Milligan, Vocabulary, etc.). See it already in Luke 2:7 and Aleph for Matthew 1:25 ; Romans 8:29 . “The use of this word does not show what Arius argued that Paul regarded Christ as a creature like “all creation” (pash ktisew, by metonomy the act regarded as result). It is rather the comparative (superlative) force of prwto that is used (first-born of all creation) as in Colossians 1:18 ; Romans 8:29 ; Hebrews 1:6 ; Hebrews 12:23 ; Revelation 1:5 . Paul is here refuting the Gnostics who pictured Christ as one of the aeons by placing him before “all creation” (angels and men). Like eikwn we find prwtotoko in the Alexandrian vocabulary of the Logo teaching (Philo) as well as in the LXX. “Paul takes both words to help express the deity of Jesus Christ in his relation to the Father as eikwn (Image) and to the universe as prwtotoko (First-born).
The NET states concerning the use of the word “Firstborn”…
The Greek term πρωτότοκος (prwtotokos) could refer either to first in order of time, such as a first born child, or it could refer to one who is preeminent in rank. M. J. Harris, Colossians and Philemon (EGGNT), 43, expresses the meaning of the word well: “The ‘firstborn’ was either the eldest child in a family or a person of preeminent rank. “The use of this term to describe the Davidic king in Ps 88:28 LXX (=Ps 89:27 EVV), ‘I will also appoint him my firstborn (πρωτότοκον), the most exalted of the kings of the earth,’ INDICATES THAT IT CAN DENOTE SUPREMACY IN RANK AS WELL AS PRIORITY IN TIME. But whether the πρωτό- element in the word denotes time, rank, or both, the significance of the -τοκος element as indicating birth or origin (from τίκτω, give birth to) has been virtually lost except in ref. to lit. birth.” “In Col 1:15 the emphasis is on the priority of Jesus’ rank as over and above creation (cf. 1:16 and the “for” clause referring to Jesus as Creator).
29tn The genitive construction πάσης κτίσεως (pash” ktisew”) is a genitive of subordination and is therefore translated as “OVER ALL CREATION.” See ExSyn 103-4.
WJ
Keith,
A firstborn implies that he came from another…hence he would NOT be the first of his kind as created things are. He is the first to be born of another of/over all creation. The benefit of being the firstborn is preeminence but firstborn doesn't mean preeminent. Preeminence is just a benefit.I think we need a topic entitled “Firstborn of/over all creation as per the early church fathers” and see if they understand that the Son was generated first from God of all creation. That might help shed some light. If they do not say or imply that the Son came forth from God and then after that all things were created, I will rethink my opinion. But if they do, then you might want to reconsider being dogmatic about firstborn meaning 'preeminent.'
Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 19 2010,23:42) Keith,
A firstborn implies that he came from another…hence he would NOT be the first of his kind as created things are.
What? Col 1:15 says “Firstborn of Creation” not “firstborn of God”, which if it is taken like you mean, it would mean that he is of the creation?WJ
Keith,
No one can be a firstborn and be the first of their kind. A firstborn is not a first created. A firstborn comes from another of his kind that existed before him.To all,
“There is no one like Yahweh our God.” Exodus 8:10
“Yahweh, He is God; there is no other besides Him.” Deuteronomy 4:35
“Yahweh, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other.” Deuteronomy 4:39
“See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me” Deuteronomy 32:39
“Hear, O Israel! Yahweh is our God, Yahweh is one!” Deuteronomy 6:4
“You are great, O Lord God; for there is none like You, and there is no God besides You” 2 Samuel 7:22
“For who is God, besides Yahweh? And who is a rock, besides our God?” 2 Samuel 22:32
“Yahweh is God; there is no one else.” 1 Kings 8:60
“You are the God, You alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth.” 2 Kings 19:15
“O Lord, there is none like You, nor is there any God besides You” 1 Chronicles 17:20
“You alone are Yahweh.” Nehemiah 9:6
“For who is God, but Yahweh? And who is a rock, except our God” Psalm 18:31
“You alone Lord, are God.” Isaiah 37:20
“Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me.” Isaiah 43:10
“‘I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me.” Isaiah 44:6
“Is there any God besides Me, Or is there any other Rock? I know of none.” Isaiah 44:8
“I am Yahweh, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God.” Isaiah 45:5
“Surely, God is with you, and there is none else, No other God.” Isaiah 45:14
“I am Yahweh, and there is none else.” Isaiah 45:18
“Is it not I, Yahweh? And there is no other God besides Me, A righteous God and a Savior; There is none except Me.” Isaiah 45:21
“I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me” Isaiah 46:9
“And Yahweh will be king over all the earth; in that day Yahweh will be the only one, and His name the only one.” Zechariah 14:9
“No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other.” Matthew 6:24
“But do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers.” Matthew 23:8
“Do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, that is, Christ.” Matthew 23:10
“”The foremost is, ‘Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God is one Lord; ” Mark 12:29
“You do not seek the glory that is from the one and only God?” John 5:44
“I and the Father are one.” John 10:30
“This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God” John 17:3
“The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one” John 17:22
“Since indeed God is one” Romans 3:30
“To the only wise God, Amen.” Romans 16:27
“There is no God but one” 1 Corinthians 8:4
“Yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.” 1 Corinthians 8:6
“Now a mediator is not for one party only; whereas God is only one.” Galatians 3:20
“There is one body and one Spirit, one hope, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.” Ephesians 4:4-6
“Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God” 1 Timothy 1:17
“Which He will bring about at the proper time—He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.” 1 Timothy 6:16
“For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,” 1 Timothy 2:5
“You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.” James 2:19
“The only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.” Jude 25
Marty, Terrarica, JustAskin, KangarooJack, WorshippingJesus, EdJ, and any others I missed, all agree with scripture though in different ways that there is only one God.
Where does it say there are 2 Gods, both equal ? It says the complete opposite.
Quote (942767 @ Aug. 20 2010,08:15) Quote (Baker @ Aug. 19 2010,14:34) Marty I was just reading your post, just one point, you said that The Word of God is God;s Word, so that Word became flesh? That makes no sense at all. Jehovah God has never been heard or seen, only He that has been with Him from the beginning has seen Him, The Word of God that became Jesus…Rev. 19:13-16 explains it nicely…. read and learn about it….KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. THE WORD OF GOD WILL COME AS THAT AGAIN…. WITH THOUSANDS OF ANGELS……
Peace Irene
Hi Irene:I don't know why this doesn't make sense to you. Beginning in Genesis 3 and throughout the OT, the Word of God speaks prophetically or symbolically of the coming of the Messiah.
God knew that a particular point in time he would conceive His Son in the womb of the virgin Mary, and so, this what the Word was made flesh means. In parenthesis we have in the following “and we beheld his glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth”. That explains what is being said by the “Word was made flesh” to me.
Love in Christ,
Marty
MartyLook at this scripture.
Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Do you agree that the “Lamb” is Jesus Christ, the son of God?
Slain from the foundation, before creation, means, he knew that he would have to die for us, even before man was created.
The son existed long before creation, the name Jesus was given to him at birth as a human.Georg
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 19 2010,03:06) Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Aug. 18 2010,08:46) Quote (Baker @ Aug. 18 2010,22:29) Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Aug. 15 2010,22:16) Quote (Baker @ Aug. 15 2010,21:37) Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Aug. 15 2010,07:40) Quote (Baker @ Aug. 15 2010,07:34) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 15 2010,07:20) Quote (Baker @ Aug. 14 2010,15:08) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 15 2010,06:52) Quote (Baker @ Aug. 14 2010,14:40) You ask, “””Was God ever without his Word?”””
If you mean his son by, WORD, yes; you can read about his, the son's/word, beginning in Prov. 8:22-30.
Why did John refer to Jesus as the word? Here is the reason.
God was never without his Word.There is no scripture that says Jesus who is called the “Word of God” was created.
Proverbs 8 is merely speculation because the “Word” or Jesus name is not in Prov 8.
WJ
I am surprised you didn't say, Pr. 8:22-31 was the beginning of wisdom; that is what I was told by some ministers.
What do you think those scriptures are saying, who do they refer to? have you actually read them?
Let me put them up for you.Pro 8:22 “The Lord brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old;
Pro 8:23 I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.
Pro 8:24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water;
Pro 8:25 before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth,
Pro 8:26 before he made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world.
Pro 8:27 I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
Pro 8:28 when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
Pro 8:29 when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
Pro 8:30 Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence,
Pro 8:31 rejoicing in his whole world and delighting in mankind.
I am trying to help you understand, nothing more.
If this doesn't show you the preexistence of Jesus, nothing else will.Georg
GeorgeI believe in the Preexistence of Jesus. But I do not believe Prov 8 is speaking of Jesus.
I think he is just talking about personified wisdom for all through Proverbs he speaks of wisdom.
It is merely conjecture to say this is the “Word” or “Jesus”. Why would Solomon give wisdom a female gender?
WJ
Like I said, you can believe what ever you want, but,…if this is speaking of wisdom, are you suggesting God had to create wisdom? if he had to create it, what gave him the wisdom to create it?
Pure nonsense.What is you reason to refuse to believe truth?
Georg
Georg,No! You are the one gurgitating “pure nonsense.” Wisdom is called “she” and a “woman” in chapter 9. It's figurative dude! Use the mind God gave you!
the Roo
I'm not qualified to teach blind people.Georg
Georg,Your remark is typical of the uneducated.
Proverbs 9,
“Wisdom has built HER house. SHE has hewn out HER seven pillars; SHE has slaughtered HER meat, SHE has mixed HER wine, SHE has also furnished HER table….”
Who is blind? Wisdom is CLEARLY personified as a virtuous wife. Chapter 9 is a CONTINUATION of chapter 8. So you should take off your blinders, scrap all your former presuppositions and start over.
the Roo
Then answer these questions!The Lord brought forth what, wisdom?
What do you mean by “brought forth”?
Explain how God “brought forth” wisdom, it says; “as the FIRST of his WORKS”.
Did wisdom have a beginning, v. 23?
Was wisdom given birth, v. 25?
Was wisdom the craftsman at God's side, v. 30?
Was wisdom always rejoicing in the presence of God, v. 30?
Was wisdom rejoicing in the whole world and delighting in mankind, v. 31?Georg
Is Christ a “SHE?” Does this female Christ live with a female companion named “Prudence?”“I wisdom DWELL WITH Prudence” 8:12
Proverbs 8-9 is poetic and you are destroying the beauty of the poem. It is PERSONIFICATION for wisdom which is a quality of the soul. If we truly have wisdom then we have prudence also. It is obvious from your carnal handling of the poetic scriptures that you have neither.
Roo
True JackI gave up on his nonsense.
WJ
Can't you at least be honest about it?
When you come to scriptures that don't line up with your believes, you ignore them, and so does the Kangaroo.
Did I not quote scriptures Pr. 8: 22-31, so why do you both come up with other scriptures that have nothing to do with the once I ask about?
Well, I'm used to it on this forum.Georg
Quote (shimmer @ Aug. 20 2010,04:40) To all, “There is no one like Yahweh our God.” Exodus 8:10
“Yahweh, He is God; there is no other besides Him.” Deuteronomy 4:35
“Yahweh, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other.” Deuteronomy 4:39
“See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me” Deuteronomy 32:39
“Hear, O Israel! Yahweh is our God, Yahweh is one!” Deuteronomy 6:4
“You are great, O Lord God; for there is none like You, and there is no God besides You” 2 Samuel 7:22
“For who is God, besides Yahweh? And who is a rock, besides our God?” 2 Samuel 22:32
“Yahweh is God; there is no one else.” 1 Kings 8:60
“You are the God, You alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth.” 2 Kings 19:15
“O Lord, there is none like You, nor is there any God besides You” 1 Chronicles 17:20
“You alone are Yahweh.” Nehemiah 9:6
“For who is God, but Yahweh? And who is a rock, except our God” Psalm 18:31
“You alone Lord, are God.” Isaiah 37:20
“Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me.” Isaiah 43:10
“‘I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me.” Isaiah 44:6
“Is there any God besides Me, Or is there any other Rock? I know of none.” Isaiah 44:8
“I am Yahweh, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God.” Isaiah 45:5
“Surely, God is with you, and there is none else, No other God.” Isaiah 45:14
“I am Yahweh, and there is none else.” Isaiah 45:18
“Is it not I, Yahweh? And there is no other God besides Me, A righteous God and a Savior; There is none except Me.” Isaiah 45:21
“I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me” Isaiah 46:9
“And Yahweh will be king over all the earth; in that day Yahweh will be the only one, and His name the only one.” Zechariah 14:9
“No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other.” Matthew 6:24
“But do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers.” Matthew 23:8
“Do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, that is, Christ.” Matthew 23:10
“”The foremost is, ‘Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God is one Lord; ” Mark 12:29
“You do not seek the glory that is from the one and only God?” John 5:44
“I and the Father are one.” John 10:30
“This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God” John 17:3
“The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one” John 17:22
“Since indeed God is one” Romans 3:30
“To the only wise God, Amen.” Romans 16:27
“There is no God but one” 1 Corinthians 8:4
“Yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.” 1 Corinthians 8:6
“Now a mediator is not for one party only; whereas God is only one.” Galatians 3:20
“There is one body and one Spirit, one hope, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.” Ephesians 4:4-6
“Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God” 1 Timothy 1:17
“Which He will bring about at the proper time—He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.” 1 Timothy 6:16
“For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,” 1 Timothy 2:5
“You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.” James 2:19
“The only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.” Jude 25
Shimmer,
Nice group of verses. We know that Jesus is called God by God Himself in Hebrews 1. We know that He is called the only begotten God in John 1. We know that Jesus is called Emmanuel which means God with us. We know that He is called the might God. We know that all things came into being by Him. We know that He forgives all sins, performed supernaturally, and gives eternal life. We know that the Holy Spirit testifies of Him and the Holy Spirit was given to men after the resurrection so Jesus' words will not explain Him but will explain His Father because Jesus came to explain the Father, not Himself.I have taken the liberty to rewrite the verses that you put up with adding the understanding of there being an unbegotten God who has a Son, the begotten God. I just did this to help you see my understanding. The Father was begotten by no one…right, thus He is the 'unbegotten God'. The Son was begotten by the Father and thus the 'begotten God' since like begets like, not less than 'like.' The unbegotten is not like the begotten in the sense of one being begotten, the other not but their nature is the same and that nature always existed, it is not a new nature with a beginning.
Here is that understanding:
There is no one like Yahweh our unbegotten God.
Yahweh, He is God; there is no other unbegotten God besides Him.
Yahweh, He is the unbegotten God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other unbegotten God.
See now that I, I am He, and there is no unbegotten god besides Me.
Hear, O Israel! Yahweh is our unbegotten God, Yahweh is one!
You are great, O unbegotten Lord God; for there is none like You, and there is no unbegotten God besides You.
For who is unbegotten God, besides Yahweh? And who is a rock besides our unbegotten God?
Yahweh is unbegotten God; there is no one else unbegotten.
You are the unbegotten God, You alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth.
O Lord, there is none like You, nor is there any unbegotten God besides You.
For who is unbegotten God, but Yahweh? And who is a rock, except our unbegotten God?
You alone Lord, are unbegotten God.
Before Me there was no unbegotten God Formed, and there will be none after Me.
I am the first unbegotten God and I am the last unbegotten God, and there is no unbegotten God besides Me.
Is there any unbegotten God besides Me, or is there any other Rock? I know of none.
I am Yahweh, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no unbegotten God.
Surely, God is with you, and there is none else, No other unbegotten God.
I am Yahweh, and there is none else unbegotten.
Is it not I, Yahweh? And there is no other unbegotten God besides Me, a righteous God and a Savior; There is none except Me.
I am God, and there is no other; I am unbegotten God, and there is no one unbegotten like Me.
And Yahweh will be king over all the earth; in that day Yahweh will be the only unbegotten one, and His name the only unbegotten one.
The foremost is, 'Hear, O Israel! The Lord our unbegotten God is one Lord;'
You do not seek the glory that is from the one and only unbegotten God?
This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true unbegotten God.
Since indeed unbegotten God is one.
To the only wise unbegotten God, Amen.
There is no unbegotten God but one.
Yet for us there is but one unbegotten God, the Father from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one begotten Lord, Jesus Christ by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.
Now a mediator is not for one party only; whereas unbegotten God is only one.
There is one body and one Spirit, one hop
e, one Lord one faith, one baptism, one unbegotten God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only unbegotten God.
Which He, the unbegotten, will bring about at the proper time—He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.
For there is one unbegotten God, and one mediator also between unbegotten God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
You believe that unbegotten God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.
The only unbegotten God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our begotten Lord. Amen.
The Son was begotten, the Father was unbegotten.
Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 20 2010,08:58) Quote (shimmer @ Aug. 20 2010,04:40) To all, “There is no one like Yahweh our God.” Exodus 8:10
“Yahweh, He is God; there is no other besides Him.” Deuteronomy 4:35
“Yahweh, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other.” Deuteronomy 4:39
“See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me” Deuteronomy 32:39
“Hear, O Israel! Yahweh is our God, Yahweh is one!” Deuteronomy 6:4
“You are great, O Lord God; for there is none like You, and there is no God besides You” 2 Samuel 7:22
“For who is God, besides Yahweh? And who is a rock, besides our God?” 2 Samuel 22:32
“Yahweh is God; there is no one else.” 1 Kings 8:60
“You are the God, You alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth.” 2 Kings 19:15
“O Lord, there is none like You, nor is there any God besides You” 1 Chronicles 17:20
“You alone are Yahweh.” Nehemiah 9:6
“For who is God, but Yahweh? And who is a rock, except our God” Psalm 18:31
“You alone Lord, are God.” Isaiah 37:20
“Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me.” Isaiah 43:10
“‘I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me.” Isaiah 44:6
“Is there any God besides Me, Or is there any other Rock? I know of none.” Isaiah 44:8
“I am Yahweh, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God.” Isaiah 45:5
“Surely, God is with you, and there is none else, No other God.” Isaiah 45:14
“I am Yahweh, and there is none else.” Isaiah 45:18
“Is it not I, Yahweh? And there is no other God besides Me, A righteous God and a Savior; There is none except Me.” Isaiah 45:21
“I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me” Isaiah 46:9
“And Yahweh will be king over all the earth; in that day Yahweh will be the only one, and His name the only one.” Zechariah 14:9
“No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other.” Matthew 6:24
“But do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers.” Matthew 23:8
“Do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, that is, Christ.” Matthew 23:10
“”The foremost is, ‘Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God is one Lord; ” Mark 12:29
“You do not seek the glory that is from the one and only God?” John 5:44
“I and the Father are one.” John 10:30
“This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God” John 17:3
“The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one” John 17:22
“Since indeed God is one” Romans 3:30
“To the only wise God, Amen.” Romans 16:27
“There is no God but one” 1 Corinthians 8:4
“Yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.” 1 Corinthians 8:6
“Now a mediator is not for one party only; whereas God is only one.” Galatians 3:20
“There is one body and one Spirit, one hope, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.” Ephesians 4:4-6
“Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God” 1 Timothy 1:17
“Which He will bring about at the proper time—He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.” 1 Timothy 6:16
“For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,” 1 Timothy 2:5
“You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.” James 2:19
“The only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.” Jude 25
Shimmer,
Nice group of verses. We know that Jesus is called God by God Himself in Hebrews 1. We know that He is called the only begotten God in John 1. We know that Jesus is called Emmanuel which means God with us. We know that He is called the might God. We know that all things came into being by Him. We know that He forgives all sins, performed supernaturally, and gives eternal life. We know that the Holy Spirit testifies of Him and the Holy Spirit was given to men after the resurrection so Jesus' words will not explain Him but will explain His Father because Jesus came to explain the Father, not Himself.I have taken the liberty to rewrite the verses that you put up with adding the understanding of there being an unbegotten God who has a Son, the begotten God. I just did this to help you see my understanding. The Father was begotten by no one…right, thus He is the 'unbegotten God'. The Son was begotten by the Father and thus the 'begotten God' since like begets like, not less than 'like.' The unbegotten is not like the begotten in the sense of one being begotten, the other not but their nature is the same and that nature always existed, it is not a new nature with a beginning.
Here is that understanding:
There is no one like Yahweh our unbegotten God.
Yahweh, He is God; there is no other unbegotten God besides Him.
Yahweh, He is the unbegotten God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other unbegotten God.
See now that I, I am He, and there is no unbegotten god besides Me.
Hear, O Israel! Yahweh is our unbegotten God, Yahweh is one!
You are great, O unbegotten Lord God; for there is none like You, and there is no unbegotten God besides You.
For who is unbegotten God, besides Yahweh? And who is a rock besides our unbegotten God?
Yahweh is unbegotten God; there is no one else unbegotten.
You are the unbegotten God, You alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth.
O Lord, there is none like You, nor is there any unbegotten God besides You.
For who is unbegotten God, but Yahweh? And who is a rock, except our unbegotten God?
You alone Lord, are unbegotten God.
Before Me there was no unbegotten God Formed, and there will be none after Me.
I am the first unbegotten God and I am the last unbegotten God, and there is no unbegotten God besides Me.
Is there any unbegotten God besides Me, or is there any other Rock? I know of none.
I am Yahweh, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no unbegotten God.
Surely, God is with you, and there is none else, No other unbegotten God.
I am Yahweh, and there is none else unbegotten.
Is it not I, Yahweh? And there is no other unbegotten God besides Me, a righteous God and a Savior; There is none except Me.
I am God, and there is no other; I am unbegotten God, and there is no one unbegotten like Me.
And Yahweh will be king over all the earth; in that day Yahweh will be the only unbegotten one, and His name the only unbegotten one.
The foremost is, 'Hear, O Israel! The Lord our unbegotten God is one Lord;'
You do not seek the glory that is from the one and only unbegotten God?
This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true unbegotten God.
Since indeed unbegotten God is one.
To the only wise unbegotten God, Amen.
There is no unbegotten God but one.
Yet for us there is but one unbegotten God, the Father from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one be
gotten Lord, Jesus Christ by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.Now a mediator is not for one party only; whereas unbegotten God is only one.
There is one body and one Spirit, one hope, one Lord one faith, one baptism, one unbegotten God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.
Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only unbegotten God.
Which He, the unbegotten, will bring about at the proper time—He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.
For there is one unbegotten God, and one mediator also between unbegotten God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
You believe that unbegotten God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.
The only unbegotten God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our begotten Lord. Amen.
The Son was begotten, the Father was unbegotten.
Dear God…Would someone explain how an unbegotten God and a begotten God is not still 2 Gods?
This is shamefull to add to the scriptures and is a total corruption of the text.
The Apostles and Prophets under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit did not believe their was anything as an “unbegotten God”.
The Word “unbegotten God” is not in the scriptures which also brings into question the word “Begotten God”.
Of course the NASB and the NWT are the only major translations that translate it that way.
WJ
Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 20 2010,00:16) Keith,
No one can be a firstborn and be the first of their kind. A firstborn is not a first created. A firstborn comes from another of his kind that existed before him.
KathiThat is if you assume that “born” does not mean created.
There are no examples in scriptures where anything born was not created.
Jesus is Lord of Creation
The description “first-born of all creation” speaks of Christ’s preexistence. He is not a creature but the eternal Creator (John 1:10). God created the world through Christ and redeemed the world through Christ (Hebrews 1:2-4).
Note that Jesus is called the first-born, not the first-created. The word “first-born” (Greek word “prototokos”) signifies priority. In the culture of the Ancient Near East, the first-born was not necessarily the oldest child. First-born referred not to birth order but to rank. The first-born possessed the inheritance and leadership.
Therefore, the phrase expresses Christ's sovereignty over creation. After resurrecting Jesus from the dead, God gave Him authority over the Earth (Matthew 28:18). Jesus created the world, saved the world, and rules the world. He is the self-existent, acknowledged Head of creation.
Finally, the phrase recognizes Him as the Messiah: “I will make Him [Christ] My first-born, higher than the kings of the earth” (Psalm 89:27).
Six times the Lord Jesus is declared to be the first-born of God (see Romans 8:29; Colossians 1:15, 18; Hebrews 1:6; 12:23; Revelation 1:5). These passages declare the preexistence, the sovereignty, and the redemption that Christ offers.
Thus, the phrase “first-born of all creation” proclaims Christ’s preeminence. As the eternal Son of God, He created the universe. He is the Ruler of creation! Source
WJ
The unbegotten God is one unbegotten God, not two unbegotten Gods. The early church fathers often use the word 'unbegotten' in reference to God. The Son is begotten from the unbegotten God.
Also, many translations admit that the Greek is monogenes theos instead of monogenes huios. Monogenes is made up of two words, mono which is an adjective and gennao which is a verb. 'Only begotten God' NASB John 1:18) reflects the sense of an action as opposed to translating monogenes 'single, only of its kind.' The NASB has hit the nail on the head!
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
