- This topic is empty.
- Posts
I dare say that even the disciples wouldn't understand the Trinity! So, I don't feel bad for not being able to make one out of three.
Peter said that he didn't use “clever” and “invented” stories when describing Jesus. The Trinity certainly is clever, and it certainly has been man-made (this has never been in question as history will show).
Quote (Not3in1 @ April 15 2007,16:41) WJ,
I'm glad you bring this point up. My daughter was the one who asked me, “If Jesus was around 30 when he died on the cross, how old was God?” She naturally separates the two because it is a natural relationship (Father/Son). She sees that relationship played out in our own family. It is extremely easy for her to understand that Jesus is God's Son, and not God. Just as her brother is not her Father. Pretty easy concept to grasp.
That raises an interesting point. I agree that Yeshua is the Son of God on account of His natural birth. But, as far as I know, He is the one person who's conception was the result of the Holy Spirit coming upon His mother. How would a small child explain what happaned to Mary when Yeshua was concieved? No matter how you look at this it's a mysterious event that lacks a naturalistic explanation, and in fact is seemingly inexplicable by adults and children…..But nonetheless it happaned.
Not3,
I don;t want to press this too far, but if I could just have you list one doctrine that you fully understand, I'd appreciate it….Isaiah wrote:
How would a small child explain what happaned to Mary when Yeshua was concieved? No matter how you look at this it's a mysterious event that lacks a naturalistic explanation, and in fact is seemingly inexplicable by adults and children…..
*****************Yes, I felt that *bump*
The virgin birth is much easier to explain to children than is the doctrine of incarnation – hands down!
Children understand that God is in heaven. They understand that Mary was a women and lived on earth. They easily accept that God is the Father of Jesus. Little children do not have the knowledge of sex yet (or at least they shouldn't). So, they understand on a very simple level. And, I belive, this is the entire point summed up.
However, when a child reaches the age of say, 10, like my son is nearing….he has a basic working knowledge of sexual intercourse. To explain to him that God (who is in heaven, and thereby cannot “be” with Mary), gave Mary his sperm by his holy Spirit upon her…..well, that is not too hard to understand. After all, God is GOD! He can do anything
Isaiah wrote:
I don;t want to press this too far, but if I could just have you list one doctrine that you fully understand, I'd appreciate it….*********************
I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here? Are you trying to drive home the point that no one understands “fully” a teaching? I guess you would have to define what “fully” really means. Ha! Because there are quite a few teachings of Jesus that I do understand to best of my ability. And as the Lord grants me deeper insight and wisdom, I understand more and more. Don't you?
No one knows it all. Except maybe WJ! Just kidding. I really do have a ton of respect for WJ. And as I have said numerous times, I've learned a ton from him. I'm just trying to “lighten up” a bit.
That's cool, no big deal. That just seems to be the nature of these discussions. Besides, this one seems to be going places most of them don't.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 15 2007,10:52) Quote (TimothyVI @ April 15 2007,09:02) Hi Kyle, I don't think that this verse poses any problem to those that believe that Jesus was YHWH.
They believe that Jesus, the Holy Spirit and YHWH are three persons that are also one person,
Hi Tim,
I do not know of a single active member on these boards that believes that. Time and time again I see examples of those that have rejected the trinity on MBs, but almost invariably they appear not to have understood even the fundamentals of the doctrine they rejected.
Hi IS 1:18,I'm sorry, I didn't mean to missrepresent anyone.
I thought that it has been explained here dozens of times that the trinity is three persons in one. The talks to themselves statement was just referring to the fact that Jesus constantly talked to His Father.I don't want this thread to turn into a trinity thread. That was not Kyle's purpose.
Tim
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 15 2007,10:27) Hi The Name LORD, YHWH is the name for God. But a close examination of the use of this name in OT scriptures shows that the name is applied to both the Father and the Son
Just one example…
Zech 14:
1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: *and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee*.
6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the LORD shall be *king over all the earth*: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.If you notice the first and second verse seems to be the Father speaking, then in vrs 3 he says “Then the Lord, (YHWH)” as if he is speaking of another and a closer look shows he is speaking of Yeshua.
“And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives”, without question this is Yeshua.
Now if the writer was just meaning Jesus is his agent, he wouldnt have used “His feet”, then in verse 5 he says, “and *the LORD(YHWH) my God* shall come, and all the saints with thee”.
See Mk 8:38 and Matt 25:31 and Rev 1:7 and Jud 1:14. The scriptures show Jesus coming with the Holy Angels and his saints.
Then in verse 9 he says…
And the LORD,(YHWH) shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his *name one*
Notice his name is one.
Who is this that has a name above all names and is the King of Kings and Lord of Lords and will rule in his Kingdom?
His name is Yeshua which means “YHWH” is salvation!
Jesus said *My Kingdom* is not of this world!
Hi W,
Surely you know that the Father and the Son are in eternal unity as ONE from the Jordan? Christ CANNOT return as King separate from God and God will rule through him. That is what UNITY means.Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 16 2007,08:06) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 15 2007,10:27) Hi The Name LORD, YHWH is the name for God. But a close examination of the use of this name in OT scriptures shows that the name is applied to both the Father and the Son
Just one example…
Zech 14:
1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: *and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee*.
6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the LORD shall be *king over all the earth*: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.If you notice the first and second verse seems to be the Father speaking, then in vrs 3 he says “Then the Lord, (YHWH)” as if he is speaking of another and a closer look shows he is speaking of Yeshua.
“And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives”, without question this is Yeshua.
Now if the writer was just meaning Jesus is his agent, he wouldnt have used “His feet”, then in verse 5 he says, “and *the LORD(YHWH) my God* shall come, and all the saints with thee”.
See Mk 8:38 and Matt 25:31 and Rev 1:7 and Jud 1:14. The scriptures show Jesus coming with the Holy Angels and his saints.
Then in verse 9 he says…
And the LORD,(YHWH) shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his *name one*
Notice his name is one.
Who is this that has a name above all names and is the King of Kings and Lord of Lords and will rule in his Kingdom?
His name is Yeshua which means “YHWH” is salvation!
Jesus said *My Kingdom* is not of this world!
Hi W,
Surely you know that the Father and the Son are in eternal unity as ONE from the Jordan? Christ CANNOT return as King separate from God and God will rule through him. That is what UNITY means.
NHThis passage is speaking of Yeshua is also YHWH in the flesh!
Its as plain as can be.
Hi W,
No.
No double identity.
No confusion.
Two
as
ONEActs 10
38How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.God is still with the Son, they are eternally inseperable.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 16 2007,13:09) Hi W,
No.
No double identity.
No confusion.
Two
as
ONEActs 10
38How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.God is still with the Son, they are eternally inseperable.
NHDid the Father put “HIS FEET” on the mount of Olives.
The Father cannot be contained in one place. He is everywhere. Sure he was in Yeshua but Yeshua is in him.
They are One. But YHWH is God in the Flesh.
Hi W,
God is not a man and all heaven cannot contain Him
so perhaps God is standing on earth
in Christ?Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 16 2007,14:03) Hi W,
God is not a man and all heaven cannot contain Him
so perhaps God is standing on earth
in Christ?
NHGood point, which makes Christ God! My point exactly!
Hi W,
The vessel of Christ contained God.
2Cor 5
19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.God was in him and is in him eternally.
That did not make him God.
Just as God should be in you.
Eph 3
19And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.That does not make you God does it?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 16 2007,14:23) Hi W,
The vessel of Christ contained God.
2Cor 5
19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.God was in him and is in him eternally.
That did not make him God.
Just as God should be in you.
Eph 3
19And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.That does not make you God does it?
NHI thought you have said that “God” never left heaven.
How is “God” in you?
You dont believe the Spirit is God.
So how can God be in you?
Make up your mind you confuse everyone watching.
Hi W,
Your God is too small.
Even Heaven cannot contain God.
1 Kings 8:27
But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?2 Chronicles 2:6
But who is able to build him an house, seeing the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain him? who am I then, that I should build him an house, save only to burn sacrifice before him?2 Chronicles 6:18
But will God in very deed dwell with men on the earth? behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house which I have built!Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 16 2007,17:23) Hi W,
Your God is too small.
Even Heaven cannot contain God.
1 Kings 8:27
But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?2 Chronicles 2:6
But who is able to build him an house, seeing the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain him? who am I then, that I should build him an house, save only to burn sacrifice before him?2 Chronicles 6:18
But will God in very deed dwell with men on the earth? behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house which I have built!
NHExactly my point. So Yeshua who is YHWH in the flesh put “His Feet” on Mt Olives.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
