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Hi S,
You say
“The resurrection is the day of “declaration”Rom 1:4 and was declared to be the Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord,
So, “TODAY” a day of “declaration” of the “consumation” that had taken place prior.”
God did not tell us he was a Son when he was raised.
He declared him to be his Son at the Jordan.Rom 1 just declares the fulfillment of Ps2.
Jesus is the Son of God shown in that psalm and it was fully proven for the sake of men by his resurrection as shown in Acts 3.22f.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 30 2009,19:27)
Hi S,
You say
“The resurrection is the day of “declaration”Rom 1:4 and was declared to be the Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord,
So, “TODAY” a day of “declaration” of the “consumation” that had taken place prior.”
God did not tell us he was a Son when he was raised.
He declared him to be his Son at the Jordan.Rom 1 just declares the fulfillment of Ps2.
Jesus is the Son of God shown in that psalm and it was fully proven for the sake of men by his resurrection as shown in Acts 3.22f.
Nick said,Quote Hi S,
You say
“The resurrection is the day of “declaration”Rom 1:4 and was declared to be the Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord,
Nick,
I did not say it, God did –
Rom 1:4 and was declared to be the Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord,
So, “TODAY” a day of “declaration” of the “consumation” that had taken place prior.”
Nick observes,
Quote God did not tell us he was a Son when he was raised.
He declared him to be his Son at the Jordan.Rom 1 just declares the fulfillment of Ps2.
Then Nick states,
Quote Jesus is the Son of God shown in that psalm and it was fully proven for the sake of men by his resurrection as shown in Acts 3.22f. So which is it Nick?
Quote Nick,
Quote God did not tell us he was a Son when he was raised. Or
Quote Nick,
Quote it was fully proven for the sake of men by his resurrection as shown in Acts 3.22f. Thus Nick, as you admit and I would agree as I stated, God did not tell us he was a Son when he was raised – “it was fully proven for the sake of men by his resurrection as shown in Acts 3:22f.”
I submit to you scripture you cited.
Once again, it is best I conclude discussion with you on the matter. It has been interesting.
Blessings,
Seeking
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 30 2009,18:50) Quote (SEEKING @ April 30 2009,10:52) Quote (thethinker @ April 29 2009,14:05) Nick,
I asked you to tell me when “TODAY” occurred.Quote “TODAY I have become your father (NIV) When God said to Jesus “TODAY I have become your father” when did this happen?
thinker
On at least one other occassion, “TODAY”(equallyrendered “on this day”) Has been identified as follows –The words, This day have I begotten thee, must refer either to his incarnation, when he was miraculously conceived in the womb of the virgin by the power of the Holy Spirit; or to his resurrection from the dead, when God, by this sovereign display of his almighty energy, declared him to be his Son, vindicated his innocence, and also the purity and innocence of the blessed virgin, who was the mother of this son, and who declared him to be produced in her womb by the power of God. The resurrection of Christ, therefore, to which the words most properly refer, not only gave the fullest proof that he was an innocent and righteous man, but also that he had accomplished the purpose for which he died, and that his conception was miraculous, and his mother a pure and unspotted virgin.
Adam Clarke CommentaryThis day. 1. Acts 13:33″, where this passage is applied to the resurrection of Christ from the dead;–proving that the phrase “this day” does not refer to the doctrine of eternal generation, but to the resurrection of the Redeemer–“the FIRST-BEGOTTEN of the dead,” Revelation 1:6. Thus Theodoret says of the phrase “this day”–” It does not express his eternal generation, but that which is connected with time.” The argument of the apostle here does not turn on the time when this was said, but on the fact that this was said to him, and not to any one of the angels; and this argument will have equal force, whether the phrase be understood as referring to the fact of his resurrection, or to his previous existence.
Barne's Notes on the New TestamentToday I have begotten You refers to Jesus' resurrection from the dead. At that time He fully assumed His role as our great High Priest, having been perfected (Hebrews 5:9).
David Guzik's Commentaries on the BibleThe day was the day of the resurrection in which the Bible states,
Act 13:33 this he has fulfilled to us their children by raising Jesus, as also it is written in the second Psalm, “'You are my Son, today I have begotten you.'
The resurrection is the day of “declaration”
Rom 1:4 and was declared to be the Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord,
So, “TODAY” a day of “declaration” of the “consumation” that had taken place prior.
I wonder, is it an explanation of “TODAY” that is sought or will all explanations in disagreement with the supposition be rejected and answered with a repeat of, “I asked you to tell me when “TODAY” occurred.”
Seeking
Hi S,
Do you really believe these theologians?Is begettal to you a gradual process that must reach perfection before is is true?
God does not need time.
Read the post!
I cited the theologians to assist in identifying “TODAY.”
Quote So, “TODAY” a day of “declaration” of the “consumation” that had taken place prior. Act 13:33 this he has fulfilled to us their children by raising Jesus, as also it is written in the second Psalm, “'You are my Son, today I have begotten you.'
Quote Thus Nick, as you admit and I would agree as I stated, God did not tell us he was a Son when he was raised – “it was fully proven for the sake of men by his resurrection as shown in Acts 3:22f.” Once again, it is best I conclude discussion with you on the matter. It has been interesting.
Blessings,
Seeking
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 01 2009,11:53) Hi TT,
Hebrews 1 is proving the prophecy by quoting Ps2 and not dictating the timing of the begattal.
Nick,
Hebrews 1 is indicating the FULFILLMENT of the prophecy. Your incessant appeal to the declaration at Jordan amounts to the denial that Jesus was required to EARN His name.God indeed called Jesus His Son at the Jordan and no one has ever denied this. God could declare it then because He knew that Jesus would finish the course. God would not have said it if He had known otherwise. Let me ask you a question. If Jesus would have called for the twelve legions of angels and not gone to the cross would God have highly exalted him and given him a name that is above every name?
It was by his becoming obedient unto death that he acquired or EARNED his name. So if he would have called for the angels and aborted the mission he would NOT have inherited his name. God called him “Son” at the Jordan because He knew that Jesus would purge our sins and subsequently exalt him and beget him.
We are called sons “now” (Rom. 8; John 3) though we have not yet been adopted. Paul said that we are waiting for the adoption as sons,
Quote We ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we WAIT eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body (Rom. 8:23). Because we have the earnest of the Spirit we are in a real sense sons NOW. But we will not be adopted as sons UNTIL our bodies are redeemed. Jesus was in a real sense God's Son because he was in the Father and the Father in him. But he was not begotten UNTIL he finished ALL that the Father gave him to do and was exalted. Hebrews CLEARLY says this
Quote AFTER he had provided purification for our sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs. For to which of the angels did he ever say, “You are My Son, TODAY I have become your Father” (NIV)
Philippians reiterates this also by saying that Jesus became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Then it says,
Quote Therefore, God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name (NIV) According to Hebrews 1 that name is “begotten” and “firstborn.”
You pit Scripture against Scripture when you ought to be harmonizing them. And your denial that Jesus was required to EARN His name goes against basic Christian teaching trinitarian and non-trinitarian alike.
thinker
Hi S,
The final proofs of the prophecies about the coming Son were not presented to men till his resurrection from the dead which declared the fact unequivocally.But in fact for those who were listening God declared him to be His Son a whole lot earlier.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 01 2009,07:52) Hi KW,
Has Jesus already taken the throne of David?
He is the king on the donkey but assumes the throne on his return surely?
He has been made King of everything in heaven and on earth and I take is to mean he is the King of all God's people and so is sitting on the throne of David though in a kingdom that is greater than David's. Scripture does say he is sitting on a throne at the right hand of God but it does not say whether or not that throne is David's.Hi Kathi! First of all IMO We will not go up to heaven, rather that the meek will inherit the earth. The elect will reign a thousand years with Christ here on earth. The place that Jesus will prepare for those that are going to be spirit beings, will be IMO in the new Jerusalem that will come down from heaven.
Peace and Love Irene
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 01 2009,21:39) Hi TT,
Earning a name?
Being a son is not a name but a fact.
Yes Nick. “Son” is a name. Jesus told the Jews that doing the will of the Father is what makes one a son of God (John 8). Jesus did the will of the Father perfectly. Therefore, God exalted him and received him as His only begotten. This is why non-trinitarians cannot prove that “Son of God” means that Jesus had a beginning. This is because the “begetting” is NOT about reproduction or creation.The eternal Word became flesh and did the will of God. Thus he was awarded the name “only begotten Son.”
Seeking gave you the Scriptures along with good logic and sources on the “begetting”. But you do not want to let go of your long held beliefs.
thinker
Hi Irene,
Sure. I think that spiritual bodies are considered heavenly bodies…they are the same thing. Heavenly bodies can be on earth or in heaven, think about the angels. They can come and go from heaven to earth, back and forth. Our earthly bodies have been limited to stay here but heavenly bodies do not share the limits of earthly bodies, as I understand it. Isn't that good news
Love ya,
KathiQuote (Nick Hassan @ May 01 2009,02:38) Hi S,
The final proofs of the prophecies about the coming Son were not presented to men till his resurrection from the dead which declared the fact unequivocally.But in fact for those who were listening God declared him to be His Son a whole lot earlier.
Exactly!
Brilliant 
You have caught on to what I have been saying.Bye for now.
Hello all,
Here in Luke we have an announcement made from heaven that came way before the resurrection. This announcement was made the day the baby Jesus was born to Mary. On that day he was declared to be a savior, Christ the Lord. He did not do one fleshly work to receive that. It was not because He was the son of Joseph that He was born a savior, Christ the Lord but because He was the Son of GOD.Luke 2:9-11
9 And an angel of the Lord suddenly stood before them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them; and they were terribly frightened.
10 But the angel said to them, “Do not be afraid; for behold, I bring you good news of great joy which will be for all the people;
11 for today in the city of David there has been born for you a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.
NASULU
Quote (Lightenup @ May 01 2009,22:53) Hello all,
Here in Luke we have an announcement made from heaven that came way before the resurrection. This announcement was made the day the baby Jesus was born to Mary. On that day he was declared to be a savior, Christ the Lord. He did not do one fleshly work to receive that. It was not because He was the son of Joseph that He was born a savior, Christ the Lord but because He was the Son of GOD.Luke 2:9-11
9 And an angel of the Lord suddenly stood before them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them; and they were terribly frightened.
10 But the angel said to them, “Do not be afraid; for behold, I bring you good news of great joy which will be for all the people;
11 for today in the city of David there has been born for you a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.
NASULU
Good point!Quote (thethinker @ May 02 2009,02:22) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 01 2009,21:39) Hi TT,
Earning a name?
Being a son is not a name but a fact.
Yes Nick. “Son” is a name. Jesus told the Jews that doing the will of the Father is what makes one a son of God (John 8). Jesus did the will of the Father perfectly. Therefore, God exalted him and received him as His only begotten. This is why non-trinitarians cannot prove that “Son of God” means that Jesus had a beginning. This is because the “begetting” is NOT about reproduction or creation.The eternal Word became flesh and did the will of God. Thus he was awarded the name “only begotten Son.”
Seeking gave you the Scriptures along with good logic and sources on the “begetting”. But you do not want to let go of your long held beliefs.
thinker
Hi TT,
You have not shown that any man doing anything causes them to be called a son of God.The sonship derves from God's actions and not mans.
You must be reborn from above.
Hi S,
Acts 13
29And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre.30But God raised him from the dead:
31And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people.
32And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers,
33God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.
34And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.
35Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
36For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:
37But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.
38Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:
39And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
40Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, which is spoken of in the prophets;
Begettal was not in the raising.
Raising Jesus proved him to be the promised coming Son [ps2]just as he had claimed to be.Quote (Lightenup @ May 02 2009,03:53) Hello all,
Here in Luke we have an announcement made from heaven that came way before the resurrection. This announcement was made the day the baby Jesus was born to Mary. On that day he was declared to be a savior, Christ the Lord. He did not do one fleshly work to receive that. It was not because He was the son of Joseph that He was born a savior, Christ the Lord but because He was the Son of GOD.Luke 2:9-11
9 And an angel of the Lord suddenly stood before them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them; and they were terribly frightened.
10 But the angel said to them, “Do not be afraid; for behold, I bring you good news of great joy which will be for all the people;
11 for today in the city of David there has been born for you a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.
NASULU
To All,
The statement above is an example of how some pit Scripture against Scripture. Jesus was called “Lord and Christ” because he was recognized by the angel as the one whom God foreordained to be such. But Jesus ACTUALLY became Lord and Christ at His exaltation.Quote For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself: “The LORD said to my Lord, 'sit on my right hand until I make myour enemies your footstool.' “
Therefore, let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has MADE this Jesus, whom you crucified both Lord and Christ (Acts 2:34-36)
This is clear! Jesus was made both Lord and Christ at His exaltation. It was after His resurrection that he claimed to have “all authority.” Jesus Himself said so!
Nick's and Kathi's views are unscriptural and goes counter to fundamental Christian teaching. Their views are based in pretexting. Jesus had to EARN the title “Lord and Christ.” Nick and Kathi render Christ's obedience meaningless.
thinker
Hi TT,
Did he EARN the TITLE before he died?
Christ means anointed one.
Jesus is the Christ.He worked in that anointing and it was not a prize for good works.
Quote (thethinker @ May 01 2009,16:44) Quote (Lightenup @ May 02 2009,03:53) Hello all,
Here in Luke we have an announcement made from heaven that came way before the resurrection. This announcement was made the day the baby Jesus was born to Mary. On that day he was declared to be a savior, Christ the Lord. He did not do one fleshly work to receive that. It was not because He was the son of Joseph that He was born a savior, Christ the Lord but because He was the Son of GOD.Luke 2:9-11
9 And an angel of the Lord suddenly stood before them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them; and they were terribly frightened.
10 But the angel said to them, “Do not be afraid; for behold, I bring you good news of great joy which will be for all the people;
11 for today in the city of David there has been born for you a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.
NASULU
To All,
The statement above is an example of how some pit Scripture against Scripture. Jesus was called “Lord and Christ” because he was recognized by the angel as the one whom God foreordained to be such. But Jesus ACTUALLY became Lord and Christ at His exaltation.Quote For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself: “The LORD said to my Lord, 'sit on my right hand until I make myour enemies your footstool.' “
Therefore, let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has MADE this Jesus, whom you crucified both Lord and Christ (Acts 2:34-36)
This is clear! Jesus was made both Lord and Christ at His exaltation. It was after His resurrection that he claimed to have “all authority.” Jesus Himself said so!
Nick's and Kathi's views are unscriptural and goes counter to fundamental Christian teaching. Their views are based in pretexting. Jesus had to EARN the title “Lord and Christ.” Nick and Kathi render Christ's obedience meaningless.
thinker
The angels knew assuredly that He was the savior, Christ the Lord when He was born and it was after His resurrection that mankind knew assuredly. Knowing and knowing assuredly were two different senses of knowing. He did not become Christ the Lord, He was Christ the Lord the day He was born. Present tense, future tense…they mean something.IMO
LUQuote (Nick Hassan @ May 02 2009,10:05) Hi TT,
Did he EARN the TITLE before he died?
Christ means anointed one.
Jesus is the Christ.He worked in that anointing and it was not a prize for good works.
Quote Luk 4:13 And when the devil had ended all the temptation, he departed from him for a season. Luk 4:14 And Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit into Galilee: and there went out a fame of him through all the region round about.
Luk 4:15 And he taught in their synagogues, being glorified of all.
Luk 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.
Luk 4:17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
Luk 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord [is] upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
Luk 4:19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
Luk 4:20 And he closed the book, and he gave [it] again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
Luk 4:21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.
Quote Mat 16:14 And they said, Some [say that thou art] John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. Mat 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
Love in Christ,
MartyLightenup siad:
Quote The angels knew assuredly that He was the savior, Christ the Lord when He was born and it was after His resurrection that mankind knew assuredly. Knowing and knowing assuredly were two different senses of knowing. He did not become Christ the Lord, He was Christ the Lord the day He was born. Present tense, future tense…they mean something.IMO
LUHi Kathi,
So what is your take on Jesus' claim to have ALL authority after His resurrection?
God bless,
thinker
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