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Hello all,
The Lord has convicted me that my participation in posts that contain
disparaging remarks, innuendo, etc. is not reflective of one persuing Christlikeness. Neither does it reflect the demeanor of one led by and walking in the Spirit.I will not participate in or with anyone who posts in this manner, nor will I envolve myself further in this kind of behavior.
Blessings in your walk with the Lord,
Seeking
Quote (thethinker @ April 06 2009,11:31) Lightenup said: Quote It was the third day that He ascended to the Father to complete His resurrection. Then He came back that same day and showed Himself to the disciples for the first time since His death. It was many days later that He ascended to heaven and left the disciples with the comforter as I understand it. LU,
You said that Jesus ascended to the Father the same day of His resurrection and then came back and showed Himself to the disciples. Please give your Scriptural proof.
He showed Himself to the three women (Matt. 28:1-9)Jesus' resurrection was completed when He ascended from hades and then appeared in His mutilated body. It was His glorification that was in two steps.
LU said:
Quote I vaguely recall something about after Jesus' death that He went down to hades but I can't recall the passage. Do you know where that is? Psalm 16:10, Acts 2:31-32, Rom. 10:7
thinker
Hi Thinker,
The verses that you gave me about Him supposedly being alive in Hades does not say that He was alive. I believe it simply means that His body was in the grave yet only a short time so that He did not decay. I believe that His spirit went to the Father at the moment of His death. He said:
Luke 23:4646 And Jesus, crying with a loud voice, said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said this, he gave up the ghost.
ASVAlso, read this commentary:
Acts 2:14-36
That the soul shall not continue in a state of separation from the body; for, besides that this is some uneasiness to a human soul made for its body, it would be the continuance of death's triumph over him who was in truth a conqueror over death: “Thou wilt not leave my soul in hell” (in hades, in the invisible state, so hades properly signifies); “but, though thou suffer it for a time to remove thither, and to remain there, yet thou wilt remand it; thou wilt not leave it there, as thou dost the souls of other men.” (2.) That the body shall lie but a little while in the grave: Thou wilt not suffer thy Holy One to see corruption; the body shall not continue dead so long as to begin to putrefy or become noisome; and therefore it must return to life on or before the third day after its death.
(from Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible, PC Study Bible Formatted Electronic Database Copyright © 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. All Rights reserved.)So, I disagree with you that He was alive in Hades.
Quote LU,
You said that Jesus ascended to the Father the same day of His resurrection and then came back and showed Himself to the disciples. Please give your Scriptural proof.
He showed Himself to the three women (Matt. 28:1-9)Jesus' resurrection was completed when He ascended from hades and then appeared in His mutilated body. It was His glorification that was in two steps.
Proof that Jesus ascended to the Father the same day of His resurrection is this:
John 20:17-19
17 Jesus saith to her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended unto the Father: but go unto my brethren, and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.
18 Mary Magdalene cometh and telleth the disciples, I have seen the Lord; and (that) he had said these things unto her.
19 When therefore it was evening, on that day, the first (day) of the week, and when the doors were shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace (be) unto you.
ASVWhen Jesus said that Mary should not touch Him, it was the first day of the week which was the third day. When He said that He ascends to His Father it was written in present tense and not future tense. That happened in between showing Himself to Mary and showing Himself to His disciples. He showed Himself to the disciples on the evening (before sunset) of the first day of the week. So there ya go. The first day of the week His body rose to the Father from the dead and came back to the disciples the same day. It only rose to the Father once. Before that, when He was talking to Mary, He had not risen to the Father but was possibly like Lazurus who “came forth” from the grave. The life that Lazurus was raised to was not eternal life. The life that the Son was speaking of gaining upon His resurrection was eternal life. When He saw the disciples later that same day, He breathed on them the Holy Spirit which He received from the Father.
John 20:22
22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Spirit:
ASVGod bless,
KathiQuote (SEEKING @ April 06 2009,18:03) Hello all, The Lord has convicted me that my participation in posts that contain
disparaging remarks, innuendo, etc. is not reflective of one persuing Christlikeness. Neither does it reflect the demeanor of one led by and walking in the Spirit.I will not participate in or with anyone who posts in this manner, nor will I envolve myself further in this kind of behavior.
Blessings in your walk with the Lord,
Seeking
Hi Seeking,
Good for you! Remember that overcoming the urge to respond likewise is admirable. Sometimes it means we walk away and other times it means that we stay and set a guard over the door of our lips as we type well chosen words of a better way.Hope to see converse with you again.
God bless,
KathiHi LU,
The body of Lazarus was thought to be decaying after a similar time but the nondecay of the body of Jesus's body was unrelated to worldly time but to fulfill scripture as Acts 2 shows.” 27Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. “
Hades is a place as Jesus taught in lk16.
The body of Jesus did not return to God till he ascended.
Jesus had eternal life from the moment the Spirit of Life was given him in the Jordan.The Spirit does not did nor forsake those who make a temple home for God.
Quote (Lightenup @ April 06 2009,15:08) Quote (SEEKING @ April 06 2009,18:03) Hello all, The Lord has convicted me that my participation in posts that contain
disparaging remarks, innuendo, etc. is not reflective of one persuing Christlikeness. Neither does it reflect the demeanor of one led by and walking in the Spirit.I will not participate in or with anyone who posts in this manner, nor will I envolve myself further in this kind of behavior.
Blessings in your walk with the Lord,
Seeking
Hi Seeking,
Good for you! Remember that overcoming the urge to respond likewise is admirable. Sometimes it means we walk away and other times it means that we stay and set a guard over the door of our lips as we type well chosen words of a better way.Hope to see converse with you again.
God bless,
Kathi
Kathi,I am certain we will converse further. Thank you for the counsel and encouragement.
Blessings,
Seeking
Hi Nick,
Quote The body of Lazarus was though to be decaying after a similar time but the nondecay of the body of Jesus's body was unrelated to worldly time but to fulfill scripture as Acts 2 shows. Well, either way I don't think it matters much just “how much decay” happened in Lazarus. We aren't told that he had decayed just given the impression that he would stink if I remember correctly. It is not worthwhile to dwell on that IMO. We do know that Lazarus did receive life after he died and that he died again. It is possible to receive life yet not eternal life.
Do you think that we receive eternal life when we receive the Holy Spirit or just the promise of eternal life? If you think we have it now, then the body can die over and over and over yet we have eternal life? I think we have the promise of eternal life and it comes with a brand new body that will not die after our old bodies do die.
Quote The body of Jesus did not return to God till he ascended. LU
He ascended for the first time on the third day.
[/QUOTE]Jesus had eternal life from the moment the Spirit of Life was given him in the Jordan.
I do not see the Spirit of Life being given to Him at the Jordan as clearly as you do. I see it descending on Him and remaining. I think it possible that He had the Spirit of God within Him always because He knew things of GOD as a child and trusted GOD as a child. Can you grow in wisdom apart from the indwelling Spirit of God…true wisdom.
Hi LU,
The Spirit is given to all God's children who ask.[lk11]
If the Spirit is allowed to lead us we become sons of God.[Rom8, gal5]
If that investment finds no place in us and does not produce fruit we are pruned from the vine.[jn10,Mt25]Hi LU,
He knew his guiding Father.Lk2
49And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?
God was with him[acts10]Hi Nick,
It seems that we can receive the spirit at one time and then the power of the spirit at another time.
LUHi LU,
We do not have because we do not ask.
All grace is accessible in prayer for God's holy people.
False doctrine and lack of faith has limited what the body of Christ is able to do.Nick said:
Quote Yes it is not God who died.
It was the Son of God.Stop misrepresenting me Nick. I said that it was not the “Father” who died. I did not say that God didn't die. The other day I offered Acts 20:28,
Quote Feed the church of GOD which HE has purchased with HIS OWN BLOOD God died for you Nick!
thinker
Hi tt,
Your god is too small if he is of flesh and is mortal.
Our God is the LIVING GODDaniel 6:26
I make a decree, That in every dominion of my kingdom men tremble and fear before the God of Daniel: for he is the living God, and stedfast for ever, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed, and his dominion shall be even unto the end.Hosea 1:10
Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.
1 Timothy 1:17
Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.1 Timothy 6:16
Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.2 Timothy 1:10
But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:Seeking said:
Quote The Lord has convicted me that my participation in posts that contain
disparaging remarks, innuendo, etc. is not reflective of one persuing Christlikeness.Seeking,
Why pursue Christlikeness since He did nothing for you? Shouldn't you pursue Fatherlikeness instead? It means nothing to you that Christ was humiliated and tortured and spit upon; as well as His skin being torn by whips and His flesh broken by nails. Not to mention the verbal abuse and scorn He suffered.You have maligned His holy name and have denied His cooperative work in your salvation all along. Now all of a sudden you want to be like Him.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ April 07 2009,11:00) Nick said: Quote Yes it is not God who died.
It was the Son of God.Stop misrepresenting me Nick. I said that it was not the “Father” who died. I did not say that God didn't die. The other day I offered Acts 20:28,
Quote Feed the church of GOD which HE has purchased with HIS OWN BLOOD God died for you Nick!
thinker
Hi tt,
God is the Father.Jn8
54Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:You have allowed foolish men to confuse you.
Be faithful to your Lord and his words.Quote (thethinker @ April 06 2009,16:20) You have maligned His holy name and have denied His cooperative work in your salvation all along. Now all of a sudden you want to be like Him. thinker
I have insisted on his cooperative work because that is what he taught his work was; full cooperation with the Father.Joh 4:34 Jesus said to them, “My food is to do the will of him who sent me and to accomplish his work.
Joh 5:30 “I can do nothing on my own. As I hear, I judge, and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me.
Joh 6:38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.
Joh 8:28 So Jesus said to them, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he, and that I do nothing on my own authority, but speak just as the Father taught me.
Joh 14:13 Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
Act 4:12 And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”
Rom 3:21-26 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it– the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.
Rom 3:26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.Eph 2:1-5 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience– among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ–by grace you have been saved–Eph 2:8-10 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
Blessings in your walk with the Lord,
Seeking
Seeking said:
Quote I have insisted on his cooperative work because that is what he taught his work was; full cooperation with the Father. You have said a zillion times that the Father took “full” responsibility. Now you say that you have always insisted on Christ's cooperative work. Yet you deny that He participated in His resurrection. The fact is that you pick and choose.
Quote Co-op-er-ate: To work together for a common objective; act in conbination (Funk and Wagnall's Dictionary) How you can say that Christ cooperated on one side of your mouth and then say the Father took “full” responsibility on the other side is beyond me.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ April 07 2009,07:49) Quote How you can say that Christ cooperated on one side of your mouth and then say the Father took “full” responsibility on the other side is beyond me. RESPONSIBILITY
–noun, plural -ties.
1.the state or fact of being responsible.
2.an instance of being responsible: The responsibility for this mess is yours!
3.a particular burden of obligation upon one who is responsible: the responsibilities of authority.
4.a person or thing for which one is responsible: A child is a responsibility to its parents.
5.reliability or dependability, esp. in meeting debts or payments.COOPERATION
1.an act or instance of working or acting together for a common purpose or benefit; joint action.
2.more or less active assistance from a person, organization, etc.: We sought the cooperation of various civic leaders.
3.willingness to cooperate: to indicate cooperation.
4.Economics. the combination of persons for purposes of production, purchase, or distribution for their joint benefit: producers' cooperation; consumers' cooperation.
5.Sociology. activity shared for mutual benefit.
6.Ecology. mutually beneficial interaction among organisms living in a limited area.COOPERATE
1.To work or act together toward a common end or purpose.
2.To acquiesce willingly; be compliant: asked the child to cooperate and go to bed.
3.To form an association for common, usually economic, benefit: When buyers cooperate, they can make large wholesale purchases at a discount.INITIATE
1.to begin, set going, or originate: to initiate major social reforms.
2.to introduce into the knowledge of some art or subject.
3.to admit or accept with formal rites into an organization or group, secret knowledge, adult society, etc.
4.to propose (a measure) by initiative procedure: to initiate a constitutional amendment.Seeking
Hi Kathi
Quote (Lightenup @ April 07 2009,10:04) Hi Thinker,
The verses that you gave me about Him supposedly being alive in Hades does not say that He was alive. I believe it simply means that His body was in the grave yet only a short time so that He did not decay. I believe that His spirit went to the Father at the moment of His death. He said:
Luke 23:4646 And Jesus, crying with a loud voice, said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said this, he gave up the ghost.
ASVThen what did Jesus mean when he said this…
For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; “so shall the Son of man be” three days and three nights in “the heart of the earth“. Matt 12:40
Jonah was alive in the belly of the fish.
Also what about his statement here…
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me “shall never die“. Believest thou this? John 11:26
Try to read them without any bias and compare them with the parable of the rich man and Lazarus.
I don't believe that MH was implying what you are. If you read the context of what he speaks, he is speaking of the body of Jesus being dead. Matthew Henry
Jesus was the ressurrection and the life. He was the Eternal life (1 John 1:1-3) that was with the Father. It was impossible to put his eternal Spirit to death.
Jesus even said concerning us…
But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, “which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell“; yea, I say unto you, Fear him. And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. Luke 12:4, 5
And fear not them which kill the body, “but are not able to kill the soul“: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Matt 10:28
Jesus said that we “Have Eternal life” and I believe him.
WJ
Hi WJ,
Surely or prophecy about the sign of Jonah to be fulfilled Jonah had to die and be resurrected.Jonah 1
5The waters compassed me about, even to the soul: the depth closed me round about, the weeds were wrapped about my head.6I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God.
7When my soul fainted within me I remembered the LORD: and my prayer came in unto thee, into thine holy temple.
Alive in the Spirit of prophecy.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 08 2009,07:24) Hi WJ,
Surely or prophecy about the sign of Jonah to be fulfilled Jonah had to die and be resurrected.Jonah 1
5The waters compassed me about, even to the soul: the depth closed me round about, the weeds were wrapped about my head.6I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God.
7When my soul fainted within me I remembered the LORD: and my prayer came in unto thee, into thine holy temple.
Alive in the Spirit of prophecy.
NHI see nothing in those scriptures that says Jonah died!
That is your inference! You are always accusing others of inference and additions then you do exactly what you accuse others of doing.
Now the LORD had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights. Jonah 1:17
If he was dead he wouldn't be in his belly for three days and three nights unless you think he is just flesh and has no Spirit/Soul.
Then Jonah prayed unto the LORD his God out of the fish's belly, And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; “out of the belly of hell cried I“, [and] thou heardest my voice. For thou hadst cast me into the deep, in the midst of the seas; and the floods compassed me about: all thy billows and thy waves passed over me. Then I said, I am cast out of thy sight; yet I will look again toward thy holy temple.The waters compassed me about, [even] to the soul: the depth closed me round about, the weeds were wrapped about my head. I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars [was] about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God. When my soul fainted within me I remembered the LORD: and my prayer came in unto thee, into thine holy temple. They that observe lying vanities forsake their own mercy. But I will sacrifice unto thee with the voice of thanksgiving; “I will pay that that I have vowed. Salvation [is] of the LORD. And the LORD spake unto the fish, and it vomited out Jonah upon the dry” [land]. Jonah 2
Chapter 2 clearly shows that Jonah was conscious and aware of where he was until the fish vomited him out.
WJ
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