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asher
the following verses show that Paul belong to the so called Nazarenes sect,but this is because Jesus came from Nazareth.Ac 24:1 Five days later the high priest Ananias went down to Caesarea with some of the elders and a lawyer named Tertullus, and they brought their charges against Paul before the governor.
Ac 24:2 When Paul was called in, Tertullus presented his case before Felix: “We have enjoyed a long period of peace under you, and your foresight has brought about reforms in this nation.
Ac 24:3 Everywhere and in every way, most excellent Felix, we acknowledge this with profound gratitude.
Ac 24:4 But in order not to weary you further, I would request that you be kind enough to hear us briefly.
Ac 24:5 “We have found this man to be a troublemaker, stirring up riots among the Jews all over the world. He is a ringleader of the Nazarene sect“But this I confess to you, that according to the sect which they call HaDerekh (The Way) , so I worship the G-d
this is the name given by men to the way the apostles were following Christ.
Acts (Ma'asim) 11:26 ;this is the place were the first time they were called Christians this is fine.
“And when he had foundall you showed me tells me that Christ was not affiliated to any sectarian group
Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 03 2010,04:27) asher
the following verses show that Paul belong to the so called Nazarenes sect,but this is because Jesus came from Nazareth.Ac 24:1 Five days later the high priest Ananias went down to Caesarea with some of the elders and a lawyer named Tertullus, and they brought their charges against Paul before the governor.
Ac 24:2 When Paul was called in, Tertullus presented his case before Felix: “We have enjoyed a long period of peace under you, and your foresight has brought about reforms in this nation.
Ac 24:3 Everywhere and in every way, most excellent Felix, we acknowledge this with profound gratitude.
Ac 24:4 But in order not to weary you further, I would request that you be kind enough to hear us briefly.
Ac 24:5 “We have found this man to be a troublemaker, stirring up riots among the Jews all over the world. He is a ringleader of the Nazarene sect“But this I confess to you, that according to the sect which they call HaDerekh (The Way) , so I worship the G-d
this is the name given by men to the way the apostles were following Christ.
Acts (Ma'asim) 11:26 ;this is the place were the first time they were called Christians this is fine.
“And when he had foundall you showed me tells me that Christ was not affiliated to any sectarian group
The contexts are so easily changed by the faulty translations that we find in the English versions, its no wonder why there are so many astray doctrines and beliefs that are not consistent with fact. The Greek, the Hebrew and the Aramaic are accurate and they all say the same thing.The texts state that these were the names of the sect. It is recorded historical fact that this was the name of the sect.
It is common in Judaism for a sect to be named after the town of the Rabbi who founded it, for example: The Breslov movement was founded by Rabbi Nachman who was from Breslov, The Lubavitch movement was founded by the Alter Rebbe who was from Lubavitch. This is common in Jewish culture. In our case, Yeshua was from Nazareth, and so the name of his sect was called the Nazarenes. None of these Rabbis named their own sect, it just became the name.
Also, you didnt acknowledge the names Moshiachim (Annointed Ones) and HaDerekh (The Way), which clearly indicate that they were distinct sect. There were no towns named these.
Of course it was men who named the sect, Yeshua was a man none the less. That makes no difference who named the sect, any sect has the right to name their sect.
Yeshua appointed the Apostles to lead the way when he left. It is recorded in history that Yeshua's brother James the Just (Ya'acov HaTzadik), Paul of Tarsus, etc… all were leaders in the sect once Yeshua left this world. These are historical facts that are verifiable and acknowledged by historians and scholars alike. These facts have been withheld from Christians for many centuries until today. But the truth was there the whole time, it was just that Christians were not informed and were not shown.
Acts (Ma'asim) 11:26
“And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the kohel (congregation), and taught much people. And the talmidim (disciples) were called Moshiachim (Anointed Ones) first in Antioch.”Acts (Ma'asim) 24:14-15
“But this I confess to you, that according to the sect which they call HaDerekh (The Way) , so I worship the G-d of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Torah and in the Prophets. I have hope in G-d, which they themselves also accept, that there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust.”Acts (Ma'asim) 24:5
“For we have found this man a pestilent fellow, and a mover of sedition among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Netzarim (Nazarenes):Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 03 2010,16:29) [/quote] Quote asher you are carnal in you thoughts
I would love to know how you could possibly know my thoughts.
How could these verses indicate a carnal mind? Do you even know what carnal means? The word has no association with the topic at hand.
I have provided nothing but fact and scripture to support my statements.
Please explain.
Also you didnt respond to my reply on other post.
terraricca,Jan. wrote:hi asher
are you satisfied with our understanding so be it ,Christ as nothing to do with you ,you don't need him
you do not need his father neither,because he is the one who send his son.you are on your own.
Ya know that was a pretty mean thing to say, where is the love in your words? You not demonstrating kindness to your brother who is here sharing and discussing with other brothers and sisters in the Messiah the matters of scriptures. You are condemning a believer. Not very nice.
Who are you to say that Messiah has nothing to do with me when I believe in him and believe in what he did for us? Is not faith and belief enough?
Who are you to say that I dont need him? Of course we all need him because the Father sent him to do what he was prophecized to do.
Who are you to say that I dont need the Father when it is He whom I worship and believe in and pray to everyday?
You saying that I am on my own is only showing me that you are judging me the same way that the corrupted Pharisees and Seducees judged the disciples of Yeshua. Therefore your contradictive words and tone are making your position less credible in that you are no different than those who you have disdain for.
I am saddened by those who say things like this, because this is the very reason why there is no unity in the body of Messiah. This is why the fullness of the Gentiles have not yet come in and why many Jews are still blinded from the truth about the Messiah. Until there is unity, it will be just like these words above which just creates barriers between believers.
Remember what Yeshua said about a house divided.
Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 03 2010,16:29) [/quote] Quote asher you are carnal in you thoughts
I would love to know how you could possibly know my thoughts.
How could these verses indicate a carnal mind? Do you even know what carnal means? The word has no association with the topic at hand.
I have provided nothing but fact and scripture to support my statements.
Please explain.
Also you didnt respond to my reply on other post.
terraricca,Jan. wrote:hi asher
are you satisfied with our understanding so be it ,Christ as nothing to do with you ,you don't need him
you do not need his father neither,because he is the one who send his son.you are on your own.
Ya know that was a pretty mean thing to say, where is the love in your words? You not demonstrating kindness to your brother who is here sharing and discussing with other brothers and sisters in the Messiah the matters of scriptures. You are condemning a believer. Not very nice.Who are you to say that Messiah has nothing to do with me when I believe in him and believe in what he did for us? Is not faith and belief enough?
Who are you to say that I dont need him? Of course we all need him because the Father sent him to do what he was prophecized to do.
Who are you to say that I dont need the Father when it is He whom I worship and believe in and pray to everyday?
You saying that I am on my own is only showing me that you are judging me the same way that the corrupted Pharisees and Seducees judged the disciples of Yeshua. Therefore your contradictive words and tone are making your position less credible in that you are no different than those who you have disdain for.
I am saddened by those who say things like this, because this is the very reason why there is no unity in the body of Messiah. This is why the fullness of the Gentiles have not yet come in and why many Jews are still blinded from the truth about the Messiah. Until there is unity, it will be just like these words above which just creates barriers between believers.
Remember what Yeshua said about a house divided.
Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 03 2010,16:29)
asheryou are carnal in you thoughts
I would love to know how you could possibly know my thoughts.
How could these verses indicate a carnal mind? Do you even know what carnal means? The word has no association with the topic at hand.
I have provided nothing but fact and scripture to support my statements.
Please explain.
Also you didnt respond to my reply on other post.
Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 30 2010,20:19) hi asher are you satisfied with our understanding so be it ,Christ as nothing to do with you ,you don't need him
you do not need his father neither,because he is the one who send his son.you are on your own.
Ya know that was a pretty mean thing to say, where is the love in your words? You not demonstrating kindness to your brother who is here sharing and discussing with other brothers and sisters in the Messiah the matters of scriptures. You are condemning a believer. Not very nice.
Who are you to say that Messiah has nothing to do with me when I believe in him and believe in what he did for us? Is not faith and belief enough?
Who are you to say that I dont need him? Of course we all need him because the Father sent him to do what he was prophecized to do.
Who are you to say that I dont need the Father when it is He whom I worship and believe in and pray to everyday?
You saying that I am on my own is only showing me that you are judging me the same way that the corrupted Pharisees and Seducees judged the disciples of Yeshua. Therefore your contradictive words and tone are making your position less credible in that you are no different than those who you have disdain for.
I am saddened by those who say things like this, because this is the very reason why there is no unity in the body of Messiah. This is why the fullness of the Gentiles have not yet come in and why many Jews are still blinded from the truth about the Messiah. Until there is unity, it will be just like these words above which just creates barriers between believers.
Remember what Yeshua said about a house divided.
asher
do not get upset with this,i say that because you try to say to me that Christ belong to a sect he did not
you wen on to explain that it was history,tradition,ect.
wen in reality there is nothing to connect Jesus to a sect,and you showed me that he was the founder of the way,nazarene,Christians, in reality he never contribute to any,men did ,but Christ can not be divided,and we still not on the same note.why is that ??
if we joint with are personal views we would not last,a divided kingdom can not subsist
terraricca,Feb. wrote:[/quote]
Quote asher do not get upset with this,i say that because you try to say to me that Christ belong to a sect he did not
you wen on to explain that it was history,tradition,ect.
wen in reality there is nothing to connect Jesus to a sect,and you showed me that he was the founder of the way,nazarene,Christians, in reality he never contribute to any,men did ,but Christ can not be divided,and we still not on the same note.why is that ??
if we joint with are personal views we would not last,a divided kingdom can not subsistHi,
Im not upset at all, except that it saddens me how there is division over doctrine and not unity over love. The Hillel and Shamai Pharisees got along very well dispite their disputes over Torah rulings.
It is a historical fact that Yeshua founded that sect, they were Jews from all other sects who split off into this one, from the Hillel and Shemai camps, Essenes, Zealots, Hasidim… they all joined the Netzari sect. Even Christian historians and scholars attest to this fact.
The Apostles themselves are recorded in history to have been part of this sect.
The Netzarim were not about dividing people.
You stil didnt respond to my reply
And what are you asking “why is that? Why is what that?
Im not using personal views in my position, I use fact. And scripture which coincides with the facts.
asher
your faith is with God not with me ,and it is sad that we are so divided ,but it is the way it is
many have built on it but not the way it should have been.
Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 04 2010,05:43) asher your faith is with God not with me ,and it is sad that we are so divided ,but it is the way it is
many have built on it but not the way it should have been.
It is true my faith is with HaShem, but our division is based on statements you have said that were not called for. I have made no statements in the manner you have with me. Go back and look at what you said. We can disagree, disagreements doent mean there division.You still didnt really respond. Whats up with that?
Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 04 2010,07:38) asher
why is that ? that there are so many divisions
There are so many divisions because it all started when the Hellenistic Paganized factions took control of the show. From there it all went down hill.Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 04 2010,08:16) asher why is it that Paul ad so much problems not with the gentiles but with the converted Jews???
Paul before Damascus was a Shemai Pharisee, which was a School of Thought that were rivals to the School of Hillel, the other Pharisee sect. The Shemai Pharisees dominated the Sanhedrin and many were corrupted, which was one of the main beefs Yeshua had with them… including the fact that the Shemai Pharisees who were corrupted were in cahoots with the Hellenistic heretical sect called the Seducees.After Demascus, Paul left the Shemai camp and became a Hillel Pharisee and was taught under the Rabbi Gamliel the Doctor, the grandson of the great Hillel (the founder of the Hillel Pharisee camp). We can see the drastic change in Paul's behavior and teachings that he made this switch.
In Acts, we see Pharisees who believed in Yeshua but stated that salvation for the Gentile was dependent upon conversation (circumcision) and keeping all of the Torah. This was a Shemai doctrine, which the Hillel Pharisees rejected. Therefore, as with Rabbinic Judaism, Paul considered the Hillel rulings as more authoritive, and since he changed his allegiance to Hillel Pharisee, he ruled in favor of Hillel's ruling that salvation for the Gentile does not require circumcision or keeping all of the Torah because they had to start with the Noachide laws. Interestingly, the Apostles declared the ruling that Gentiles should start with the Noachide laws.
The Jews who had issues with him was because he was then known as Netzari Jew, a follower and emissary of Yeshua. But this is not unknown, we all know that there were Jews who didnt appreciate the Yeshua sect.
asher
i am under the impression that Paul left all jewish sect to follow Christ ,but knew the jewish way and knowledge to bring them in to Christ,
Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 04 2010,16:47) asher i am under the impression that Paul left all jewish sect to follow Christ ,but knew the jewish way and knowledge to bring them in to Christ,
Yeshua never left Judaism or being a Jew… so why would the Apostles leave the fold when they were already within the fold?Paul continued to be a practicing Pharisee as he declared in the texts, and never once did he deviate from such practice. His allegiance to Yeshua didnt change his way of life that he lived, as one of the purposes of the Messiah was not to bring people away from Torah but to bring them closer to it.
The impression you are under are based on the teachings that have been given to you, but it is not consistent with what the scriptures tell us or history.
If Paul left the Jewish sect, he would not have declared his present tense declaration of being a Pharisee, and he would not be recorded in the text as the ringleader of the Jewish sect of the HaDerekh Netzarim.
asher
the fact that he left is clear,what he said wen he was in Jerusalem he just refers to what he once was.
just if you were a lawyer but no longer practice it, would that mean you can not claim that status as acquired for live wen you wan to.this view would be ridiculous
Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 05 2010,05:44) asher the fact that he left is clear,what he said wen he was in Jerusalem he just refers to what he once was.
just if you were a lawyer but no longer practice it, would that mean you can not claim that status as acquired for live wen you wan to.this view would be ridiculous
No he declared in the present tense, not the past tense. So what you said is not a fact. If Paul did not continue to practice Judaism then he would not have continued to keep the Torah as the scriptures clearly show. Paul's writings are likened to that of the Rabbis who taught before him, Rabban Gamliel, Hillel, etc… all taught the same Torah teachings that Paul taught.
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