Proof jesus is god from paul's mouth?

[NickHassan]

Hi WJ,
You do not labour primarily in the word but the derived speculations of men.

[david]

Quote

Why didn't Jesus discourage his followers when the grabbed him by his feet and worshipped him?

Don't you mean “proskyneo”ed him?

Proskyneo literally means to “bow down” AS I KNOW YOU KNOW.

It CAN mean worship (as you know.)
It doesn't necessarily mean worship (as you know.)

Don't make me open my “proskyneo” file. I'll do it.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (david @ Sep. 02 2009,19:57)

Quote No, because Moses was not a God at all! He was a god (mighty one) to Pharoah, or at least, that's what scripture says. Quote Moses was “a god” to Pharaoh because he was a Polytheist, and nothing more! Are you suggesting that Pharoah was a polytheist who worshipped Moses?  Is that how you think Moses was a god to Pharoah? Pass the Kleenex please.

Hi David

No, I am sugesting that Pharaoh acknowledged that Moses was some sort of “a god” who he may or may not have worshipped.

Does one have to worship “a god” to be a Polytheist and believe in one or more than one god other than YHWH?

WJ

[david]

Quote

No, I am sugesting that Pharaoh acknowledged that Moses was some sort of “a god” who he may or may not have worshipped.

OK, I want to be really clear on this. You (WJ) are saying that Pharoah “may” have worshipped Moses as “a god”??

Is that what you are saying?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (david @ Sep. 02 2009,20:09)

Quote Why didn't Jesus discourage his followers when the grabbed him by his feet and worshipped him? Don't you mean “proskyneo”ed him? Proskyneo literally means to “bow down” AS I KNOW YOU KNOW. It CAN mean worship (as you know.) It doesn't necessarily mean worship (as you know.) Don't make me open my “proskyneo” file.  I'll do it.

Hi David

Go ahead and plaster your “Watchtower” propaganda here if you like.

But you are evading my challenge!

WJ

[david]

EXODUS 7:1
“Consequently Jehovah said to Moses: “See, I have made you God to Phar′aoh, and Aaron your own brother will become your prophet.”

“I [Jehovah] have made you [Moses] god to Pharoah.”

It was Jehovah who made Moses a god to Pharoah.  

Are you suggesting that Jehovah wanted Pharoah to worship Moses?

Or, is my explanatin better: That the word “god” means “mighty one” and that Jehovah gave Moses power over Pharoah?

[david]

Quote

But you are evading my challenge!

Please state it.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (david @ Sep. 02 2009,20:16)

Quote No, I am sugesting that Pharaoh acknowledged that Moses was some sort of “a god” who he may or may not have worshipped. OK, I want to be really clear on this.  You (WJ) are saying that Pharoah “may” have worshipped Moses as “a god”?? Is that what you are saying?

Hi David

No, I am saying it doesn't make any difference, because in believing in other gods he was a Polytheist, and YHWH said that he (Moses) would be a god “to Pharaoh“, not that he was “a god”!

How clear is it David. Where is the example of Moses being called “a god” by his followers like Joshua or Aaron?

WJ

[david]

I found it:

Quote

So the challenge is to you also David, give us one example of an Apostle or a follower of Christ in the NT that called any other being “God” other than the Father and Jesus that is not a “so-called” god! We have been here before and you have failed to do so!

Why stop there? Why not narrow the search to the book of Matthew? Or perhaps one particular chapter of Matthew?

The idea of cutting the Bible up isn't scriptural. “All scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for…setting things straight.” (2 tim 3:16)

[david]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 03 2009,12:22)

Quote (david @ Sep. 02 2009,20:16) Quote No, I am sugesting that Pharaoh acknowledged that Moses was some sort of “a god” who he may or may not have worshipped. OK, I want to be really clear on this.  You (WJ) are saying that Pharoah “may” have worshipped Moses as “a god”?? Is that what you are saying? Hi David No, I am saying it doesn't make any difference, because in believing in other gods he was a Polytheist, and YHWH said that he (Moses) would be a god “to Pharaoh“, not that he was “a god”! How clear is it David. Where is the example of Moses being called “a god” by his followers like Joshua or Aaron? WJ

Who said there had to be other examples?

Where are the examples of Abraham [insert a hundred other names] calling Jesus a God?
How about that? So please stop asking that silly question.

And no, that was fairly unclear and you didn't answer my question.

[david]

Quote

I am sugesting that Pharaoh acknowledged that Moses was some sort of “a god” who he may or may not have worshipped.

–WJ

Did Pharoah worship Moses?
Is that why he was called a god to Pharoah?

Simple questions.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (david @ Sep. 02 2009,20:20)

EXODUS 7:1 “Consequently Jehovah said to Moses: “See, I have made you God to Phar′aoh, and Aaron your own brother will become your prophet.” “I [Jehovah] have made you [Moses] god to Pharoah.” It was Jehovah who made Moses a god to Pharoah.   Are you suggesting that Jehovah wanted Pharoah to worship Moses? Or, is my explanatin better: That the word “god” means “mighty one” and that Jehovah gave Moses power over Pharoah?

Hi David

Of course God gave Moses power over Pharaoh, but that doesn't mean that is the definition of God!

God gave Moses power over his followers, but where do you see any of them calling him “God”?

Where does your definition of “God” come from David?

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (david @ Sep. 02 2009,20:26)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 03 2009,12:22) Quote (david @ Sep. 02 2009,20:16) Quote No, I am sugesting that Pharaoh acknowledged that Moses was some sort of “a god” who he may or may not have worshipped. OK, I want to be really clear on this.  You (WJ) are saying that Pharoah “may” have worshipped Moses as “a god”?? Is that what you are saying? Hi David No, I am saying it doesn't make any difference, because in believing in other gods he was a Polytheist, and YHWH said that he (Moses) would be a god “to Pharaoh“, not that he was “a god”! How clear is it David. Where is the example of Moses being called “a god” by his followers like Joshua or Aaron? WJ Who said there had to be other examples? Where are the examples of Abraham [insert a hundred other names] calling Jesus a God? How about that?  So please stop asking that silly question. And no, that was fairly unclear and you didn't answer my question.

Hi David

The answer to your question is in my statement!

“May or may not have worshipped“

How hard is that to understand?

The scriptures do not tell us do they. They simply tell us that YHWH said he would make Moses “A god to Pharaoh”, not to the Hebrews or anyone else because there are no other gods, yet to Pharaoh there was.

Besides what you are saying is contradictory to YHWHs own words…

“Now concerning everything which I have said to you, be on your guard; and “DO NOT MENTION THE NAME OF OTHER GODS, NOR LET THEM BE HEARD FROM YOUR MOUTH. Exod 23:13

WJ

[Jodi Lee]

Quote (david @ Sep. 03 2009,11:17)

GENERICIZED TRADEMARK EFFECT (proprietary eponym) Basically, when a word (“god” or “kleenex”) that can mean many things is used so much to mean one specific thing, that word tends to get confused with that specific thing. Kleenex makes many products.  But because their main product is facial tissue, when people hear “kleenex” they naturally think “facial tissue.”  In fact, the kleenex brand is so strong, that many people call “facial tissue” kleenex, no matter what brand it actually is.   People are confused.  They are confused because the word “God” is almost always applied to the Creator, and so they think “God” means the Creator/Father. It’s easy to understand why this would happen.  Many people get confused by Jello, Aspirin, Jacuzzi, Roller Blades, ScotchTape, Ziploc or Kleenex.  I grew up thinking “kleenex” and “facial tissue” meant the exact same thing.  But “kleenex” is a brand of facial tissue.  But because it has become a genericised trademark, the very word “kleenex” has come to be used by many in place of the words “facial tissue.” Many people use the word “kleenex” to mean facial tissue, in general.  It does not. Similarly, people think “god” means “the Creator, the Father, the true God.”  It does not. Similarly, the word “god” is applied to Jesus, angels, judges, Satan, false gods, etc. (it means “powerful one.”) ***** IT IS FALSE LOGIC AND JUST WRONG THINKING TO ASSUME THAT BECAUSE THERE IS “ONLY ONE TRUE GOD” THAT EVERYONE ELSE THAT IS CALLED GOD IS EITHER A PART OF THAT GODHEAD OR FALSE.   ARE THE ANGELS A PART OF THE GODHEAD OR ARE THEY FALSE GODS? (OR, PERHAP'S ARE THEY ACTUALLY POWERFUL BEINGS, GODS, IN RELATION TO HUMANS?–NOT FALSE GODS, NOT PART OF A GODHEAD.) People associate the word “true” with “false” meaning that one is “correct” and one is “incorrect.”  Jehovah is the correct God and everyone else is false therefore.  But those words (TRUE AND FALSE) have other meanings.   Saying: “You have just become a TRUE friend” DOES NOT MEAN you used to be a “false” friend. That is the major error that trinitarians use to suit their purposes. If Jehovah is the only true God, it means he is God (“mighty one”) in the fullest sense.  He is “almighty.” and hence,the only true God.  He is “truly” God. Others, while called “god” and while they are mighty, relatively speaking, are not almighty. It does not mean they are “false gods” as is always incorrectly stated. Moses was NOT a false god. Is he?

Great Post David!!

[KangarooJack]

Quote (david @ Sep. 03 2009,12:27)

Quote I am sugesting that Pharaoh acknowledged that Moses was some sort of “a god” who he may or may not have worshipped. –WJ Did Pharoah worship Moses? Is that why he was called a god to Pharoah? Simple questions.

TO WJ:

Don't allow David's nonsense to take you running down some rabbit trail. Moses was NOT seated at the right hand of God. And as seated at God's right hand Christ is “counted worthy” of much more glory than Moses. Jesus is “counted worthy” of the glory of the builder and the builder is God. Ergo….

Quote

…For this One has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as He who built the house has more honor than the house. 4 For every house is built by someone, but He who built all things is God. (Hebrews 3:3-4)

There it is! That David would even compare Jesus to Moses reflects the darkness that is in his heart. Jesus is “counted worthy” of glory EQUAL with God!

thinker

[princess of the king]

thinker,

so your god, is equal to your other god, they share, some have this part and some are responsible for that part, strange, zeus, hades and tritin do the same thing, equal gods, same kingdom, in charge of different areas.

so now you can confirm it, it is written in the history books……….

[KangarooJack]

Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 03 2009,12:48)

Quote (david @ Sep. 03 2009,11:17) GENERICIZED TRADEMARK EFFECT (proprietary eponym) Basically, when a word (“god” or “kleenex”) that can mean many things is used so much to mean one specific thing, that word tends to get confused with that specific thing. Kleenex makes many products.  But because their main product is facial tissue, when people hear “kleenex” they naturally think “facial tissue.”  In fact, the kleenex brand is so strong, that many people call “facial tissue” kleenex, no matter what brand it actually is.   People are confused.  They are confused because the word “God” is almost always applied to the Creator, and so they think “God” means the Creator/Father. It’s easy to understand why this would happen.  Many people get confused by Jello, Aspirin, Jacuzzi, Roller Blades, ScotchTape, Ziploc or Kleenex.  I grew up thinking “kleenex” and “facial tissue” meant the exact same thing.  But “kleenex” is a brand of facial tissue.  But because it has become a genericised trademark, the very word “kleenex” has come to be used by many in place of the words “facial tissue.” Many people use the word “kleenex” to mean facial tissue, in general.  It does not. Similarly, people think “god” means “the Creator, the Father, the true God.”  It does not. Similarly, the word “god” is applied to Jesus, angels, judges, Satan, false gods, etc. (it means “powerful one.”) ***** IT IS FALSE LOGIC AND JUST WRONG THINKING TO ASSUME THAT BECAUSE THERE IS “ONLY ONE TRUE GOD” THAT EVERYONE ELSE THAT IS CALLED GOD IS EITHER A PART OF THAT GODHEAD OR FALSE.   ARE THE ANGELS A PART OF THE GODHEAD OR ARE THEY FALSE GODS? (OR, PERHAP'S ARE THEY ACTUALLY POWERFUL BEINGS, GODS, IN RELATION TO HUMANS?–NOT FALSE GODS, NOT PART OF A GODHEAD.) People associate the word “true” with “false” meaning that one is “correct” and one is “incorrect.”  Jehovah is the correct God and everyone else is false therefore.  But those words (TRUE AND FALSE) have other meanings.   Saying: “You have just become a TRUE friend” DOES NOT MEAN you used to be a “false” friend. That is the major error that trinitarians use to suit their purposes. If Jehovah is the only true God, it means he is God (“mighty one”) in the fullest sense.  He is “almighty.” and hence,the only true God.  He is “truly” God. Others, while called “god” and while they are mighty, relatively speaking, are not almighty. It does not mean they are “false gods” as is always incorrectly stated. Moses was NOT a false god. Is he? Great Post David!!

Jodi Lee,
No it is NOT a great post by David. He engages in special pleading. A word is defined by the group of words that surround it. In Hebrews 1:8-10 the Father Himself addresses the Son as “God” and then proceeds to attribute the creation to Him. So the word “God” in reference to the Son cannot be a generic term like “kleenex.”

To which of the angels or the prophets did the Father ever say, “O God” and then follow it up saying, “You Lord in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the work of YOUR hands” (Heb. 1:8-10).

Come on! Is David the best apologist the anti-trinitarians have here? To which angel or prophet did the Father ever say “O God” with the complement “You Lord in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the work of your hands?”

David expects us to believe that the name “God” in reference to Moses is equivalent to the term as the Father ascribes it to the Son in Hebrews?

“Facial tissue” David says.  Give me a break! David should blush at this analogy. Jodi Lee, you should also blush for praising such nonsense!

thinker

[princess of the king]

you all would be in a hard place, if you lived in ancient times.

at one time there was only the father/YHWH, with a prophecy told that we would be sent a saviour……….so why didn't your god come right out and say it, I will come down in the flesh, be a man, speak to you, die for your sins, because I am the only perfect sacrifice, I will raise myself from the dead, and accend back to the heaven.

you know your bible would be much smaller if your god would have been just honest, instead of making it so confusing to understand.

[KangarooJack]

Quote (princess of the king @ Sep. 03 2009,13:35)

you all would be in a hard place, if you lived in ancient times. at one time there was only the father/YHWH, with a prophecy told that we would be sent a saviour……….so why didn't your god come right out and say it, I will come down in the flesh, be a man, speak to you, die for your sins, because I am the only perfect sacrifice, I will raise myself from the dead, and accend back to the heaven. you know your bible would be much smaller if your god would have been just honest, instead of making it so confusing to understand.

There was no God the Father in the old testament. Note that Psalm 2 prophesied that God would BECOME a Father. Hebrews 1 explicitly says that God became Father at the exaltation of Christ. It says, “I WILL BE a Father and He SHALL BE My Son.”

In the old tesatament there existed the simple trinity. In the new testament there exists the covenantal trinity which is immanent to the people of God.

thinker

[KangarooJack]

princess said:

Quote

……….so why didn't your god come right out and say it, I will come down in the flesh, be a man, speak to you, die for your sins, because I am the only perfect sacrifice, I will raise myself from the dead, and accend back to the heaven.

In other words, God must put it in your wording for it to be true. He has spoken clearly enough for me.

thinker

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