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Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 02 2009,06:19) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 02 2009,05:56) Hi Kathi Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 01 2009,13:02) His name is not above the Father's. It is above those “under heaven” that has been given among “men.
Again, you guys should include the whole council of God in your doctrines, rather than constantly trying to find ways to reduce Jesus to a lessor status than he is! IMOthat at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, “**IN HEAVEN** and on earth and under the earth“, Phil 2:10
Blessings WJ
you left out this important detail WJ,Phil 2:10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Why does it say, “TO the glory OF God the Father”? Because Jesus is a MAN who received ALL things FROM the Father. Jesus received his righteous character and his eternal life FROM the Father. We bow to Jesus to HONOR the Father! For when we bow to Jesus we are SUPPOSE to be giving recognition to the Father, admiring and acknowledging His great work in MAN!
Jodi Lee,
Don't forget that in the new covenant dispensation the Spirit glorifies the Son and not the Father.Quote John 16:12-14 (New King James Version)
12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. (John 16:12-14)The Spirit glorifies Christ. This presents a problem for Kathi because she believes that the Spirit is the Father. Therefore, the Father glorifies Christ. There is no way you anti-trinitarians can get around it that Jesus is to be glorified AS the Father is glorified,
Quote For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son, 23 that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him. (John 5:22-23)
and,Quote 13 And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying: “ Blessing and honor and glory and power
Be to Him who sits on the throne,
And to the Lamb, forever and ever!” (Revelation 5:13)Glory is to be given to the Father AND TO THE LAMB. It says that “every creature in heaven and earth” gives glory the Lamb. The scripture must be wrong because Jodi Lee bad mouths the Lamb.
You speak about glorifying the Father. But you can't do this without glorifying the Son.
thinker
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 02 2009,06:55) Hi WJ,
Of course the Father is the God of the Jews and should be yours too[Jn8.54, 1Cor8]
The Father is not your God until you glorify His Son. Until you glorify His Son you cling to a false hope.thinker
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 02 2009,06:49) Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 01 2009,14:19) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 02 2009,05:56) Hi Kathi Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 01 2009,13:02) His name is not above the Father's. It is above those “under heaven” that has been given among “men.
Again, you guys should include the whole council of God in your doctrines, rather than constantly trying to find ways to reduce Jesus to a lessor status than he is! IMOthat at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, “**IN HEAVEN** and on earth and under the earth“, Phil 2:10
Blessings WJ
you left out this important detail WJ,Phil 2:10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Why does it say, “TO the glory OF God the Father”? Because Jesus is a MAN who received ALL things FROM the Father. Jesus received his righteous character and his eternal life FROM the Father. We bow to Jesus to HONOR the Father! For when we bow to Jesus we are SUPPOSE to be giving recognition to the Father, admiring and acknowledging His great work in MAN!
Hi JodiAnd your point is?
The Father also glorified the Son!
WJ
Hi WJ,My point is that Jesus is not the One True God, only the Father is. We should look to scripture to see in what context Jesus is referred to as being a god.
John 10:32 Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?” 33 The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.” 34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, 'I said, “You are gods” '? 35 If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), 36 do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'? 37 If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; 38 but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him.”
Notice the Jews said to Jesus, “”For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”
Was Jesus a god by his own right through himself? No, Jesus did nothing of himself. Jesus reminded the Jews that God in fact refers to men as gods. Who is it that men like to call gods?….. is it not anything or anyone that they believe has supernatural powers? Didn’t Jesus in fact possess supernatural powers? Do you think that might be the reason WHY God our Heavenly Father would refer to Jesus as being a god, because he did in fact have supernatural powers, and thus would appear to be a god, unto men? Of course to the Jews there was ONLY One True God YHWH. This is why Jesus had to remind them of the scripture, and had to explain that he was in fact the Son of God, and that he was doing the Father’s work through His powers, and not his own.
Phil 2:3 Let nothing be done through selfish ambition or conceit, but in lowliness of mind let each esteem others better than himself. 5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.
The MIND that was in the human Messiah is to be in us as an example. Even though Jesus was made a god, by the One True God, Jesus kept himself humble, he did not become conceited and he certainly did not use the powers given to him for his own gain. Instead of Jesus using those powers to dominate over people, rise up and rule over people, he was a servant unto us, dying and paying for our sins.
9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
The Father did not exalt Jesus because he was a god in his own right, if that were the case he wouldn’t of needed to be exalted in the first place. God did not exalt Jesus because he pre-existed and gave up prior immortality so he could die for us, as some declare, that is clearly NOT what the scripture is teaching us. The Father exalted Jesus because in Jesus He did produce the true Messiah.
Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 02 2009,09:59) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 02 2009,06:55) Hi WJ,
Of course the Father is the God of the Jews and should be yours too[Jn8.54, 1Cor8]
The Father is not your God until you glorify His Son. Until you glorify His Son you cling to a false hope.thinker
And in what context are we to glorify the Son?We are to glorify the Son in that he represents the work of YHWH, thus we glorify the Son to HONOR the Father.
We glorify the Son because the Son is our EXAMPLE of how the Spirit of YHWH leads man to righteousness and perfection.
Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 02 2009,10:25) Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 02 2009,09:59) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 02 2009,06:55) Hi WJ,
Of course the Father is the God of the Jews and should be yours too[Jn8.54, 1Cor8]
The Father is not your God until you glorify His Son. Until you glorify His Son you cling to a false hope.thinker
And in what context are we to glorify the Son?We are to glorify the Son in that he represents the work of YHWH, thus we glorify the Son to HONOR the Father.
We glorify the Son because the Son is our EXAMPLE of how the Spirit of YHWH leads man to righteousness and perfection.
Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
If your formula amounts to honoring the Son less than the Father is honored then you are in error. Did you see my post to you above?thinker
Hi Jodi
Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 01 2009,18:08)
My point is that Jesus is not the One True God, only the Father is. We should look to scripture to see in what context Jesus is referred to as being a god.
There is no scripture that says Jesus is “a God”!In most of the scriptures claiming Jesus as God it is a direct reference to him as “God” with the definite article.
And if you believe that Hebrew Monotheism includes the acknowledgement of other Gods, you are mistaken.
“Now concerning everything which I have said to you, be on your guard; and “DO NOT MENTION THE NAME OF OTHER GODS, NOR LET THEM BE HEARD FROM YOUR MOUTH. Exod 23:13
Did YHWH change his mind?
and…
Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and “ THAT THERE IS NO GOD BUT ONE”. 1 Cor 8:4
Jesus in no sense of the word was promoting Polytheism by quoting Ps 82, for they were wicked kings and judges, and the Psalmist said they would die like men, because they were men. Jesus was rebuking them for their Hypocrisy because those who claimed to know the law were wanting to kill him for claiming that he was the Son of God.
Paul who also wrote 1 Cor 8:4 said…
while we wait for the blessed hope–the glorious appearing of “our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ“, Titus 2:13
And contextually coupled together with the GSR, Titus 2:13 along with other scriptures are unambiguous in claiming that Jesus is the Great God and Saviour!
WJ
WorshippingJesus said to Jodi Lee:
Quote There is no scripture that says Jesus is “a God”! In most of the scriptures claiming Jesus as God it is a direct reference to him as “God” with the definite article.
And if you believe that Hebrew Monotheism includes the acknowledgement of other Gods, you are mistaken.
“Now concerning everything which I have said to you, be on your guard; and “DO NOT MENTION THE NAME OF OTHER GODS, NOR LET THEM BE HEARD FROM YOUR MOUTH. Exod 23:13
Paul who also wrote 1 Cor 8:4 said…
while we wait for the blessed hope–the glorious appearing of “our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ”, Titus 2:13
And contextually coupled together with the GSR, Titus 2:13 along with other scriptures are unambiguous in claiming that Jesus is the Great God and Saviour!
Amen brother! The women on this board are polytheists in monotheist clothing. None of the anti-trinitarian men here say that Jesus is “a god” except for David the JW.
Jesus is “THE great God and Savior” (Titus 2:13). WJ has correctly spoken.
thinker
Hi TT,
From one side of you mouth you say Jesus is your God but from the other that Paul has superceded him?
Why?What does this make Paul for you?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 02 2009,11:18) Hi TT,
From one side of you mouth you say Jesus is your God but from the other that Paul has superceded him?
Why?What does this make Paul for you?
I have told you over and over again that Paul's gospel came from Christ.What – part – of – my – statement – do – you – not – understand?
thinker
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 02 2009,11:37) Hi TT,
You make the words of Jesus less than Pauls
Paul's gospel is the revelation of Jesus. Therefore, Jesus nullified His word Himself.thinker
Hi TT,
So let me see.
Jesus spoke the truth then cancelled it.
WJ is bound to want to help his brother out of this mess.Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 02 2009,09:59) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 02 2009,06:55) Hi WJ,
Of course the Father is the God of the Jews and should be yours too[Jn8.54, 1Cor8]
The Father is not your God until you glorify His Son. Until you glorify His Son you cling to a false hope.thinker
The Father is not your God until He chooses to lead you with His Spirit.If our current world is what it looks like when YHWH is trying to call every man to be His child through His Spirit, He would certainly be a weak and pathetic god.
Thankfully this is not the case, instead we are in the age where YHWH is ONLY calling LEADERS. After Christ returns there will come a time where ALL people will come to the knowledge of YHWH and He will lead them to be His children so that He will be all in all.
It is totally self-righteous to think that we choose YHWH, and those around us who don't accept the word of God are just evil people since they are denying Him. WHO exactly are they denying? Christians themselves can't even clearly define God.
Katjo mentioned something about the fact there are NO second chances. I might like to know WHEN exactly she thinks people received their first chance? I'd also like to know if she understands the fact that YHWH is MERCIFUL and PATIENT and LOVING, not willing that anyone should perish!! Of course we are not talking about perishing from the first death that Adam has brought man to, but perishing AFTER the resurrection.
We can't, even as Christians, decide what the truth is exactly, but we expect others to believe in one version or another and that makes them saved? I might mention as well, speaking of second chances, how many chances did the Israelites get in the OT, how many acts of mercy did YHWH give?
Yes people are raised from the resurrection to an AGE of judgment, (NOT and eternity of torture) they are measured for what they did with what they RECEIVED, most people received nothing but the influence of sin from all directions around them. The lake of fire will serve useful for removing sin that has been so profoundly embedded into people’s brains. YHWH’s Spirit will NOT FAIL, man is a highly influential being. Sin is dysfunctional, usually those who live exceedingly sinful lives are empty inside, sure they receive satisfaction, but it is usually temporary, never producing a true sense of fulfillment. WHEN they get a taste of true fulfillment, the taste of the greatness that comes from YHWH’s Spirit and what it has to offer, there will be no man LEFT wanting to follow sinful ways ever again!! The sexual immoral, murderers and thieves will all be destroyed, because that mind that was in them will have been removed. The Lake of fire will serve to bring them into guilt and shame, a feeling that they never experienced before, a feeling that is necessary to move people into a repentant heart that also creates a desire for following God’s ways. For God’s ways are better than the ways of man. However, in order for Him to establish that truth, He first had to leave many in their sins to make that point to those He chose to call as leaders.
I would like to know in what way does Katjo determine people’s chance at salvation? Did the crack whore who died of AIDS loose her chance because she didn’t take the time to read the bible on the night stand in her hotel room? Seriously, do the Christians who preach, “believe in Christ NOW or go to HELL”, look at the reality of the world around them? Is it NOT obvious to them that YHWH couldn’t possibly be making His best effort of calling people out of sin at this moment in time?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 02 2009,11:56) Hi TT,
So let me see.
Jesus spoke the truth then cancelled it.
WJ is bound to want to help his brother out of this mess.
Jesus spoke the old covenant then cancelled it. Hebrews chapters 6-8 say that christ's teachings were old covenant and that the old covenant has been cancelled. Get on board with God's new covenant program Nick.I am not in a mess. Heaven Net people have made a mess of God's new covenant. Now we have CA here adding to the problem.
thinker
Jodi Lee said:
Quote After Christ returns there will come a time where ALL people will come to the knowledge of YHWH and He will lead them to be His children so that He will be all in all. The new covenant age is when ALL people come to the knowledge of Him.
Quote 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. (Hebrews 8:10-11). The age when “all” shall know Him is NOW. The “all” are His chosen people.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 02 2009,09:57) Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 02 2009,06:19) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 02 2009,05:56) Hi Kathi Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 01 2009,13:02) His name is not above the Father's. It is above those “under heaven” that has been given among “men.
Again, you guys should include the whole council of God in your doctrines, rather than constantly trying to find ways to reduce Jesus to a lessor status than he is! IMOthat at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, “**IN HEAVEN** and on earth and under the earth“, Phil 2:10
Blessings WJ
you left out this important detail WJ,Phil 2:10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Why does it say, “TO the glory OF God the Father”? Because Jesus is a MAN who received ALL things FROM the Father. Jesus received his righteous character and his eternal life FROM the Father. We bow to Jesus to HONOR the Father! For when we bow to Jesus we are SUPPOSE to be giving recognition to the Father, admiring and acknowledging His great work in MAN!
Jodi Lee,
Don't forget that in the new covenant dispensation the Spirit glorifies the Son and not the Father.Quote John 16:12-14 (New King James Version)
12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. (John 16:12-14)The Spirit glorifies Christ. This presents a problem for Kathi because she believes that the Spirit is the Father. Therefore, the Father glorifies Christ. There is no way you anti-trinitarians can get around it that Jesus is to be glorified AS the Father is glorified,
Quote For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son, 23 that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him. (John 5:22-23)
and,Quote 13 And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying: “ Blessing and honor and glory and power
Be to Him who sits on the throne,
And to the Lamb, forever and ever!” (Revelation 5:13)Glory is to be given to the Father AND TO THE LAMB. It says that “every creature in heaven and earth” gives glory the Lamb. The scripture must be wrong because Jodi Lee bad mouths the Lamb.
You speak about glorifying the Father. But you can't do this without glorifying the Son.
thinker
John 16:13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. 115 All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you.Let’s keep everything in proper context! Jesus it the MAN, the human Messiah who was perfected through the working Spirit of his Father. The Father GAVE Jesus ALL things including Eternal Life. The Father’s glory is in the fact that He is the One True God who has worked into man righteousness that man may dwell in a wonderful and fulfilling Kingdom of peace and harmony for an eternity. The GLORY of Jesus is that he is the firstborn of the dead into this kingdom and he has been APPOINTED by his Father to be our King, leader, and of course he is our brother.
John 5:20 For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself does; and He will show Him greater works than these, that you may marvel. 21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will. 22 For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son, 23 that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him. 24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.
Once again we see clearly that Jesus is the man of whom receives all things from the Father.
Rev 5:13 10 And have made us kings and priests to our God; And we shall reign on the earth.” 11 Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne, the living creatures, and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands, 12 saying with a loud voice: “Worthy is the Lamb who was slain To receive power and riches and wisdom, And strength and honor and glory and blessing!” 13 And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying: “Blessing and honor and glory and power Be to Him who sits on the throne, And to the Lamb, forever and ever!”
Does the Father have the SAME glory as the Son? Of course not. Jesus is shown here to be that MAN who died on the cross, and thus he is the man who did NOTHING of himself, and deserves honor and glory ONLY because OF his Father. True we give both the Father and the Son glory and honor, but it is for different reasons, and certainly the Father’s glory is above that of Jesus, cause once again without the Father Jesus would have NO GLORY WHATSOEVER!!
I BAD MOUTH the LAMB? I give CREDIT where CREDIT is due. I honor the Lamb in the way the Father has intended him to be honored!
thinker,
i do not think, i know the words you speak are gnostic, if you want to battle with a women, then let it begin.
the women on this board ARE BLESSED AND HIGHLY FAVORED, A WOMAN THAT FEARS YAH IS TO BE PRAISED, HER CHILDREN CALL HER BLESSED HER HUSBAND PRAISES HER.
Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 02 2009,12:26) Jodi Lee said: Quote After Christ returns there will come a time where ALL people will come to the knowledge of YHWH and He will lead them to be His children so that He will be all in all. The new covenant age is when God ALL people come to the knowledge of Him.
Quote 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. (Hebrews 8:10-11). The age when “all” shall know Him is NOW. The “all” are His chosen people.
thinker
Wrong thinker! The New Covenant is in the Blood of Christ.Luke 22:20….” This cup is the new cobenant, in My blood, which is shed for you.”
IreneNO I do not believe in three Gods. and Jesus is my Lord and Saviour! If you believe in one God why didnt you answer me when I ask you why your scripture quotes: And the word was A GOD? Hmm Thats more than One! Why didnt you answer any scripture I qoutted you earlier? Revelation is all about jesus, Thas why the first chapter says; “the Revelation OF JESUS CHRIST” NOT “BY JESUS CHRIST”.
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