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david.
I think WJ chooses to understands only that which he is biased toward.
Scripture tells us to leave Babylon, but I imagine that not all will leave.
Quote (t8 @ Sep. 11 2009,16:07) Quote (RokkaMan @ Aug. 30 2009,09:05) Phillipians 2 5Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
KJV
Thanks Bye
So he had divine nature and humbled himself and took on human flesh.If he took on human flesh, does that make him Adam?
If he had divine nature, does that make him God?For Adam is Man.
YHWH is God.You make a lot of assumptions in your post.
For a start, divine nature doesn't make you God, just as being a spirit doesn't make you God.
God shares his nature as he does his spirit.
Also, if you are equal to something, it means that you are like something, not that you are that thing.
T8,
Rokkaman merely cited the text without comment and you put words in his mouth. Paul said that Christ was in “subsistence” God. The word “subsistence” means “THE REAL THING!” Jesus was not some “god” who shared in God's nature. He was THE REAL THING!thinker
Quote Jesus was not some “god” who shared in God's nature. He was THE REAL THING! And so, when the Bible says other humans will be granted “divine nature” that means they are “the real thing” as well? That means they are part of the trinity? (2 Pet 1:4)
Quote (david @ Sep. 12 2009,01:55) Quote Jesus was not some “god” who shared in God's nature. He was THE REAL THING! And so, when the Bible says other humans will be granted “divine nature” that means they are “the real thing” as well? That means they are part of the trinity? (2 Pet 1:4)
David,
The “divine nature” simply refers to God's communicable attributes such as love, kindness, patience and so forth. Men may share in God's communicable attributes.But Paul said that Christ subsisted in God's FORM.
“Who subsisting in God's FORM…”
God's form is NOT communicable to men and they CANNOT share in God's form (John 5:37). Yet Jesus subsisted in God's form. Ergo….
I know what you're thinking. You're thinking that Christ cannot be God if a man cannot share in God's form. Ah… but God may share in man's form and that's exactly what Philippians 2 says.
“Who subsisted [as the REAL thing] in Gods form (which man cannot share)…He was made in the likeness of men (because God can share in man's form).”
Jehovah took man's form in the garden and walked about conversing with Adam and Eve (Genesis 3:8). Put that in your Gnostic pipe and smoke it.
thinker
David
Quote (david @ Sep. 11 2009,01:38) Now that you know what false means, which you've mentioned before, what does “true” mean in this sentence or others like it: “Warren Buffet is the only true buy and hold investor…”
Question:Does it HAVE TO MEAN the other investors are “false investors” as your logic suggests?
Does it?
Does it have to mean that?
What do you think?
Can you please answer the question in bold?
Please?
Pretty please?
david.
“No it doesn’t“! There you have it in big letters, but it is because of the way you have presented Warren Buffet! The wording of your sentence is…
“Warren Buffet is the only true buy and hold investor…” Which can mean there are other investors.
However David as you should know the Bible gives us more explicit and detailed information about God.
For instance using your own example if we say…
“Warren Buffet is the only true investor and there is no investor but one…”
“THERE IS NO GOD BUT ONE” (1 Cor 8:4)
Then we have a whole different meaning don’t we David?. Do you see David how your example is misleading!
Tell me David based on my example above, does it mean there are other investors (or gods)?
Does it?
Does it have to mean there are other investors (or gods)?
What do you think?
Can you please answer the question in bold?
Pretty Please!
Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: “BEFORE ME THERE WAS NO GOD FORMED, NEITHER SHALL THERE BE AFTER ME”. Isa 43:10
Now please tell me David, according to YHWHs words above, did YHWH form any other gods?
Please tell us David!
Did YHWH ever form any gods?
Please in bold letters tell us David!
Or maybe then you can understand that “to Pharaoh’ Moses was “a god” and just like the giant cookie monster that a child believes in is not real, neither was Moses a real god either was he?
YHWH can make men believe a lie, can he not David?
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 2 Thess 2:11
Please tell us that you are not a Polytheist and believe in other gods David!
WJ
David said:
Quote The answer, again, is: It's sort of like that “the Lord said to the Lord” scripture, that confuses people. When you take out Jehovah's name, it confuses people. Similarly, in John 1:1, If there is God who is WITH God, that's confusing, unless you believe God is with himself (a trinity). Since the greek can go either way, why not go the way the context demands (unless you are a trinitarian)? David,
Context must demand we translate it as “God” in 1:1 because verse three says that all things were created by the Word and without Him “not one thing came into being that has come into being.” It couldn't be more clear!Your explanation really has not cleared up the problem with your translation (NWT) rendering “a god” in reference to Christ but “God” in reference to Moses. And it has been my experience that JW's use the reference to Moses as “God” as proof that that the title referred to Jesus in no greater sense. But concerning you personally I am taking your word for it that you believe Jesus is “God” in a way that is much superior to Moses. With this being the case you should abandon that line of reasoning.
thinker
Quote (t8 @ Sep. 11 2009,03:34) david. I think WJ chooses to understands only that which he is biased toward.
Scripture tells us to leave Babylon, but I imagine that not all will leave.
t8Are you looking in a mirror again!
WJ
WorshippingJesus said to David:
Quote Can you please answer the question in bold? Pretty Please!
Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: “BEFORE ME THERE WAS NO GOD FORMED, NEITHER SHALL THERE BE AFTER ME”. Isa 43:10
Now please tell me David, according to YHWHs words above, did YHWH form any other gods?
Please tell us David!
Did YHWH ever form any gods?
David would be consistent if he adopted Jodi Lee's and Gene's view that Christ was not a god in any sense at all.
thinker
On another thread Gene said:
Quote Thinker……..yes it does make sense…………Follow me please, GOD Now INDWELLS Jesus, Jesus has the full seven SPIRITS of GOD (IN) HIM withe POWER, GOD the FATHER has subjected (EVERYTHING) except himself, TO HIM, BUT it is the SEVEN SPIRITS that are (IN) Jesus who is ruling and controlling Jesus' MIND, (NOT) Jesus (alone). Jesus (himself) is pictured as a (SLAIN) Lamb that means, dead to his own (WILL) and Jesus remains dead in a (spiritual) sense to his own WILL, when He comes as King of Kings and Lords of Lords. It is GOD working through HIM so indeed GOD could say thy throne O GOD is and everlasting throne. Because GOD is ruling vicariously through Jesus the man. Jesus whole life on earth reflects that (God was in Christ Jesus) reconciling the whole world to (HIMSELF). Yours and WJ'S problem your thinking the GOD (IN) Jesus (IS) Jesus the MAN. NO He is not the MAN JESUS. God rules vicariously in all His creation through His Spirit, (“that God may be (ALL) and in (ALL) and (through) ALL”) , get it. Same with Jesus as with US who have His Spirit in them. When Jesus has completed His GOD given task , He turns everything over to GOD and Becomes Subject to Him as everything will be. Jesus is a SON and a SERVANT of GOD. As scripture says. You cannot make Jesus the Being He Serves, that is pure IDOLATRY. Drop that Trinitarian garbage thinker and things will fall into place. IMO TO DAVID:
David,
I take it back. You would not be better off adopting Gene's view.thinker
Quote (david @ Sep. 11 2009,01:39) Quote (david @ Sep. 06 2009,17:05) “What does “no God” mean to you David? Does it mean there is “no god except” the false god that Pharaoh perceived of Moses?” –WJ (p 38) WJ, are you saying Jehovah made a false god? You also stated:
“No, I am sugesting that Pharaoh acknowledged that Moses was some sort of “a god” who he [Pharaoh] may or may not have worshipped.”–WJ (p 17)
WJ, I don't think Pharaoh worshiped Moses in any way, but you believe he might have.
My question to you:
WHY WOULD “JEHOVAH” have “MADE” a false god for Pharaoh to possibly worship?
Jehovah condemns false gods and he condemns the worship of them, does he not?
david
Haven't checked yet, but I assume WJ, you have not answered this post.
What do others think?
DavidI have already answered it a zillion times, but you choose to ignore the scripture that I give you that answers your question as well as other scriptures that says “there is no God but one“!
So from now on that will be my response to your silly word games!
Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: “BEFORE ME THERE WAS NO GOD FORMED, NEITHER SHALL THERE BE AFTER ME”. Isa 43:10
Did YHWH ever form any gods David?
In big letters please answer the question!
WJ
Quote (david @ Sep. 11 2009,01:41) “No. Moses was not a god at all. To Pharaoh he was and thats it.”
–WJWJ, I'm wondering if you could elaborate on what you mean by “god.”
Moses was “not a god at all.” But, to Pharaoh he was a god…in some way. Also, if the Bible states that Moses was a god to Pharaoh, as you say, how can you also say he was “no god at all”?
DavidYe are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: “BEFORE ME THERE WAS NO GOD FORMED, NEITHER SHALL THERE BE AFTER ME”. Isa 43:10
What part of the…
BEFORE ME THERE WAS NO GOD FORMED, NEITHER SHALL THERE BE AFTER ME”.
do you not understand?
WJ
This verse can be looked at with another perspective Keith,
Quote Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: “BEFORE ME THERE WAS NO GOD FORMED, NEITHER SHALL THERE BE AFTER ME”. Isa 43:10 I'm just brainstorming here because I haven't dived into a word study but the message may mean that the “Most High God” did not replace another God and no other God will replace Him, and to those who do not think “trinity”, not even His Holy only begotten offspring will replace Him. However, the trinitarians seem to replace the Father with the Son as the Most High God or at least replace the Father who is the Most High God with another which includes the Son as also the most High God and has made one being out of two beings and a spirit.
I'm really enjoying David's and your fortitude here.
Kathiyou know, I would be more confused trying to understand the bible if I looked over scriptures like:John1;1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the word was God… Rev. 1;8 I am the alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is and which was, and wich is to come. THE ALMIGHTY..19;13,16 His name is The word of God, KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS… Jesus tells you Himself, The Father and I are One, Thomas called Him; My Lord and My God, and Jesus tells Him Blessed is He who has not seen and still believes. John 1;14 and the word was made flesh and dwelt among us… 1timothy 3;16 God was manifest in the flesh. He shall be called; Emmanuel”God with us” scripture tell us Jesus is Lord .. He tells us in Rev.21;7 he that over cometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son… Psalms 144;15 Happy is the people whos God is the Lord… In Isaiah 9;6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the goverment shall be upon His shoulders; and His named shall be called wonderful Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace John 1 4 tells us; He that saith, I know Him and keepeth not His commandments, ia a liar, and the truth is not in him— How can you deny all these scriptures? If you are than Im sorry but you are literally calling Him a liar! So many say, He is God!
God is spirit… Just like we are a spirit.. that has a soul.. that lives in a body!
Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 11 2009,13:05) This verse can be looked at with another perspective Keith, Quote Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: “BEFORE ME THERE WAS NO GOD FORMED, NEITHER SHALL THERE BE AFTER ME”. Isa 43:10 I'm just brainstorming here because I haven't dived into a word study but the message may mean that the “Most High God” did not replace another God and no other God will replace Him, and to those who do not think “trinity”, not even His Holy only begotten offspring will replace Him. However, the trinitarians seem to replace the Father with the Son as the Most High God or at least replace the Father who is the Most High God with another which includes the Son as also the most High God and has made one being out of two beings and a spirit.
I'm really enjoying David's and your fortitude here.
Kathi
Hi KathiBut according to David, God did form Moses into “a god” of some sorts, however it was only to Pharaoh that YHWH made Moses “a god” and not “God” like his corrupted NWT states!
God very well could have caused Pharaoh to believe a lie, since he hardened his heart to accomplish his purposes.
And in fact IMO it must be that way to be true to all of the scriptures!
Why do we have to read inference into the scriptures. Why not just look at them all and believe them all and let them interpret themselves?
There is “No God but One”!
WJ
Quote (david @ Sep. 11 2009,01:47) Quote David do you believe that to YHWH, and Moses and Joshua or Aaron, and the Hebrews that Moses was “a god”? Or do you believe that Moses was to them “like God”?
Think real hard David before you answer!
WJ, thankyou for the question. (I too have been away.)
No, of course I do not believe that Moses was a god to Moses? or Joshua, or Jehovah, etc.
The Bible says Jehovah made Moses a god to Pharoah.
And No, of course I do not believe that Moses was “like” God to Joshua, or Jehovah, etc.
I believe that as the Bible says, Jehovah made Moses a god (mighty one/powerful one) to Pharoah.What a crazy situation…the great Pharaoh, having things turned around, so that Moses was the mighty one to him, the god. And of course, it was Jehovah that made him such to Pharoah.
Does that not make insane amounts of sense?
Does it not make more sense than saying Jehovah made Moses a god to Pharaoh “because” Pharaoh worshiped many gods? (How does that make sense?)
DavidQuote (david @ Sep. 11 2009,01:47)
No, of course I do not believe that Moses was a god to Moses? or Joshua, or Jehovah, etc.
The Bible says Jehovah made Moses a god to Pharoah.
And No, of course I do not believe that Moses was “like” God to Joshua, or Jehovah, etc.
I believe that as the Bible says, Jehovah made Moses a god (mighty one/powerful one) to Pharoah.
Thanks David! So why do you insist that Moses was some sort of “a god”?Then why does your Bible use the “Big G” without the “a” when all other Translations do not?
Why does your Bible say Jesus is “a god” with the little “g”?
Quote (david @ Sep. 11 2009,01:47)
I believe that as the Bible says, Jehovah made Moses a god (mighty one/powerful one) to Pharoah.What a crazy situation…the great Pharaoh, having things turned around, so that Moses was the mighty one to him, the god. And of course, it was Jehovah that made him such to Pharoah.
There you go again saying that “God” means “mighty one” or “powerful one” .Where is that definition from David? Was Moses Mighty or Powerful?
Or was it that Moses represented the one that was mighty and powerful?
Did Moses accomplish any of those mighty works, or was he just YHWHs servant?
or this time “I WILL SEND” the full force of “MY PLAGUES” against you and against your officials and your people, “so you may know that there is *NO ONE LIKE ME IN ALL THE EARTH*”. For by now I could have stretched out my hand and struck you and your people with a plague that would have wiped you off the earth. But “I have raised you (Pharaoh) up” for this very purpose, that I might show you “my power” and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth[/b]. Exod 9:14-16
”So the Lord brought us out of Egypt with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm”, with great terror and with miraculous signs and wonders. Duet 26:8
Did YHWH say that he raised up Pharaoh to show his power? (So maybe Pharaoh was “a god” too, eh?)
Did not YHWH say he hardened his heart? Could YHWH in light of other scriptures have caused Pharaoh to believe a lie?
Did Moses at any point have any power? Who brought the plagues and opened the Red Sea David?
When are you going to understand David that YHWH shares his glory as “God” with no other!
Your definition of God being a “mighty one” or “powerful one” is lacking!
YHWH is infinitely all powerful is he not? Therefore as you say the Word God in the Bible is mostly about YHWH, then why do you not say that God means “Allmighty” or “All Powerful” One! Since you have admitted that to the believers there are no other Gods but one, why do you insist that there are other gods or “mighty ones” or “powerful ones”, unless that you believe that all mighty ones or powerful ones are gods?
Do you have an explanation for this?
It seems that my definition ( I mean) the Biblical definition of God makes more sense!
Quote (david @ Sep. 11 2009,01:47) Does it not make more sense than saying Jehovah made Moses a god to Pharaoh “because” Pharaoh worshiped many gods? (How does that make sense?)
It makes sense because YWHW says…Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: “BEFORE ME THERE WAS NO GOD FORMED, NEITHER SHALL THERE BE AFTER ME”. Isa 43:10
And Paul says…
So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that “THERE IS NO GOD BUT ONE“. For even if there “ARE SO CALLED GODS”, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), 1 Cor 8:4, 5
David, according to the scriptures above are there or were there any other gods?
Was there any gods formed?
Please, they are yes or no answers!
Could you put the answers in bold letters, please?
WJ
Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 11 2009,13:05) This verse can be looked at with another perspective Keith, Quote Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: “BEFORE ME THERE WAS NO GOD FORMED, NEITHER SHALL THERE BE AFTER ME”. Isa 43:10 I'm just brainstorming here because I haven't dived into a word study but the message may mean that the “Most High God” did not replace another God and no other God will replace Him, and to those who do not think “trinity”, not even His Holy only begotten offspring will replace Him. However, the trinitarians seem to replace the Father with the Son as the Most High God or at least replace the Father who is the Most High God with another which includes the Son as also the most High God and has made one being out of two beings and a spirit.
I'm really enjoying David's and your fortitude here.
Kathi
KathiAlso again your totally misrepresent the Trinitarian view.
For the Trinitarian there is One Divine Being. And that is the Father, Son and Comforter!
One Spirit, One God, three persons who share the same essence!
WJ
Quote (katjo @ Sep. 12 2009,05:29) you know, I would be more confused trying to understand the bible if I looked over scriptures like:John1;1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the word was God… Rev. 1;8 I am the alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is and which was, and wich is to come. THE ALMIGHTY..19;13,16 His name is The word of God, KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS… Jesus tells you Himself, The Father and I are One, Thomas called Him; My Lord and My God, and Jesus tells Him Blessed is He who has not seen and still believes. John 1;14 and the word was made flesh and dwelt among us… 1timothy 3;16 God was manifest in the flesh. He shall be called; Emmanuel”God with us” scripture tell us Jesus is Lord .. He tells us in Rev.21;7 he that over cometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son… Psalms 144;15 Happy is the people whos God is the Lord… In Isaiah 9;6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the goverment shall be upon His shoulders; and His named shall be called wonderful Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace John 1 4 tells us; He that saith, I know Him and keepeth not His commandments, ia a liar, and the truth is not in him— How can you deny all these scriptures? If you are than Im sorry but you are literally calling Him a liar! So many say, He is God!
Kat,Welcome.
You misunderstand. We are not calling God a liar by disagreeing with your interpretations of these scriptures. Nor are anti-Trinitarians denying God by understanding scripture differently than you.
Do you imagine that the Trinitarian view is the ONLY view out there? Perhaps you are like so many who believe there is only ONE way to view things, only ONE truth. If so, my apologies. And God help the tribe in Africa who has never seen a bible or heard of your Triune God (but worship the God that they know – who is in heaven – and perhaps goes by a different name).
Love,
MandyQuote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 12 2009,06:12) katjo,Sep. wrote:And God help the tribe in Africa who has never seen a bible or heard of your Triune God (but worship the God that they know – who is in heaven – and perhaps goes by a different name).
Love,
Mandy
Yeah, this is where Fundamentalist Protestantism has done a lot of damage.Every man is responsible for the light he has been given. (Rom. 1) When the light of the gospel comes to us, we become accountable for what we do with that light.
Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 12 2009,06:19) Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 12 2009,06:12) katjo,Sep. wrote:And God help the tribe in Africa who has never seen a bible or heard of your Triune God (but worship the God that they know – who is in heaven – and perhaps goes by a different name).
Love,
Mandy
Yeah, this is where Fundamentalist Protestantism has done a lot of damage.Every man is responsible for the light he has been given. (Rom. 1) When the light of the gospel comes to us, we become accountable for what we do with that light.
I couldn't agree more. I've said this time and time again. That for me, Christ is my salvation; He is the culture and faith that has been given to me.But must we assume that Christ is the light for everyone? Is that even possible? Or is the Father allowing for other's who will never hear the name of Jesus but worship just the same? Certainly….
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