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Jodi: Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning…
Isaiah 42:4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor…
Malachi 4:1-2 “For behold, the day is coming…
Jesus was prophesied before Abraham was according to YHVH’s word…
Are you suggesting that Isaiah and Malachi lived and prophesied these things before Abraham existed? I don’t understand.
Mike: The “origins” in 5:2 are metaphorical – even though there isn’t any actual indication that they are metaphorical, and even though nobody would ever consider the origin of Israel’s captivity in Egypt, for example, to be the moment God prophesied about it many years before it actually happened.
Jodi: No, the “origins” of Jesus are not metaphorical in Micah 5:2, the prophesied master/ruler has his origin from the tribe of Judah through David and going even further back to ancient of days, with Abraham, as from his seed a master/ruler over Israel would come.
That is the epitome of a “metaphorical origin”, Jodi. Somebody’s “origin” is LITERALLY when that person begins to exist. Now you can METAPHORICALLY say their “origin” was in their parent, or grandparent, or very distant relative… all the way back to Adam.
But here’s the thing… YOUR metaphorical origin is Adam. So is mine. So was Micah’s. So what you assert is that Micah – whose metaphorical origins were also Adam – is prophesying about a future ruler who – just like Micah, his wife, his children, his neighbors, and everyone who had ever lived up until that point – ALSO has metaphorical origins in Adam.
Can you REFUTE this fact, Jodi? Can you REFUTE the FACT that, if your assertion is correct, then Micah’s claim about someone whose “origins are in the distant past” would apply to EVERYONE WHO EVER LIVED?
On the other hand, your (and EVERYONE’S) literal origin is when you were born (or conceived in the womb). It is when you BEGAN your existence as a person.
So your claim is that Micah went out of his way to say something about this future ruler (“his origins are from the distant past”) that would have also applied to Micah himself, and to everyone who had ever lived up to that point.
Now… does that really make sense to you?
Mike: Jesus spoke in 55, then God spoke in 56, and then Jesus spoke again in 58…
Jodi: Uh no, Jesus spoke in 55 and Jesus spoke in 56…
Okay. It sure sounded like you were saying that Yahweh Himself spoke the words of 56 through Jesus.
So if it was Jesus speaking the words of 56 (“Abraham rejoiced to see MY day”), how could Jesus have known such a thing?
You have asserted (without any scriptural or logical support) that God must have given Jesus a revelation about Abraham rejoicing to see Jesus’ day. Of course it would then be clear that the Jews didn’t know about this secret revelation, because they assumed Jesus was implying that he KNEW Abraham, right? And then Jesus’ response to them wasn’t the HONEST, “You’re right that I’m less than 50. I only know about this Abraham rejoicing thing because God showed it to me in a vision”, but instead the dishonest act of letting them believe their mistake, and even playing further upon their misunderstanding with the words, “Before Abraham came into existence, I am/existed – which again didn’t mean what it clearly sounded like he was saying, but instead he used those particular words to convey the thought that he had been prophesied about in the past.
Jodi, are you noticing what I am? I truly enjoy debating scriptural teachings. It causes me to delve deeper into a subject that I love. But in over 12 years of doing it, I’ve noticed that the people whose doctrine DOESN’T actually align with what the scriptures say are the ones who have to TWIST the scriptures and IMAGINE that simple, easy-to-understand phrases really mean something completely different than their straightforward meaning.
For example, Micah says the future ruler’s origins are from the distant past. The straightforward understanding of Micah’s claim is that the future ruler actually came into existence a long time ago. The TWISTED understanding of those clear words is that the future ruler – just like EVERYONE ELSE WHO HAS EVER LIVED – will have come through a long line of ancestors.
And when Jesus says, “Before Abraham came into existence, I am”, the straightforward understanding is that Jesus was in existence before Abraham came into existence. The straightforward understanding of those words directly addressed the Jews’ accusation that he couldn’t have known Abraham because he was less than 50.
The TWISTED understanding of those clear words is that Jesus – for some very odd and unknown reason – chose those particular words to convey that he was prophesied about before Abraham existed, and that he only knew Abraham rejoiced to see his day because God showed it to him in a private revelation that nobody else knew about.
So he basically used words that would appear to any rational person to have directly answered the Jews’ accusation – when in reality their accusation was correct all along, and Jesus strung together some words that meant something very different than what they sounded like just to make the Jews’ THINK he was older than Abraham, when in reality he was just saying he was the prophesied Messiah.
I don’t know how those stupid Jews couldn’t catch his hidden meaning. 🙄
And when Jesus says, “I came down from heaven”, the most straightforward understanding of those words is that Jesus. Came. Down. From. Heaven. But the secret TWISTED meaning is, “I was sent out into the world by God – like hundreds before me and after me will be.”
Do you see it yet, Jodi? During our discussion, I have been using the most straightforward meaning of the scriptural words, while you keep “uncovering” secret hidden meanings that nobody could possibly have construed from the words the person actually said.
Example…
Jesus: I am John.
Jews: How can you say you are John when we know you are Jesus?
Jesus: Truly I tell you that before I was known as Jesus, I existed in the distant past under the name John.
Sensible understanding: Jesus formerly existed as someone named John.
TWISTED understanding: Jesus was saying that John came to pave the way for him, and that he and John are one in purpose, and that this purpose was prophesied about in the distant past.
Jodi, I’d LOVE for you to be where I am – just understanding the scriptural words in the most straightforward way they can be understood, instead of constantly making up completely unrelated stuff that nobody in their right mind could have possibly gleaned from the words that were actually spoken.
When Micah says the future ruler had origins in the distant past, I’d LOVE for you to think… “Hmm… Maybe Micah’s saying that this future ruler existed a long time ago.”
And when Jesus says, “Before Abraham came into existence, I am/existed”, I’d LOVE for you to think… “Hmm… Maybe Jesus is saying that he existed before Abraham did.”
And when Jesus says, “I came down from heaven”, I’d LOVE for you to think… “Hmm… maybe Jesus is saying he actually came down from heaven.”
And when you put them all together, I’d LOVE for you to start seeing the truth of what the scriptures were telling you all along.
But you do you. I’m in no hurry. I’m happy to just keep exposing your TWISTED interpretations of clear scriptural words, and allowing your own arguments to fall back on your own head.
Jodi: Jesus most certainly did come down from heaven as in he came down directly from God, he did not speak worldly things he spoke heavenly things as he had come from God.
See? This is a perfect case in point. Your first words align with what Jesus actually said – that he came down from heaven. But then your “as in” signals the beginning of your TWISTING of those clear words into something that couldn’t possibly be logically construed from the words themselves.
Example…
Jesus: I came down from the mountain.
Logical understanding: Jesus was on a mountain, and came down from there.
TWISTED understanding: He came down from the mountain AS IN the mountain represents the high and mighty esteem that Jesus could have commanded for himself, and he came down from that high prestige by humbling himself and making himself a lowly servant.
It’s nonsense, Jodi. It’s nothing more than a person who WANTS the Bible to teach a certain thing TWISTING clear Biblical statements into saying what they WANTED them to say all along – despite the fact that they DON’T actually say that nonsensical thing.
Jodi: Please acknowledge that the kingdom of heaven and kingdom of God mean the same thing and even Jesus uses them interchangeably.
Acknowledged. Please acknowledge for me that not one of your scriptures is a direct comparison to Jesus’ straightforward claim, “I came down from heaven”.
If you think any of them are, then post just those ones – one at a time – and we can discuss them in more depth. (Because doing a Bible search of every “kingdom of God” and “kingdom of heaven” and then posting all of them as if your claim is somehow supported by the sheer number of scriptures that contain those phrases – in ANY context – is bad form.)
Jodi: Can you explain the below, it was the Son of man that came down from heaven?
John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
What about it would you like explained? It’s another claim by Jesus that he came down from heaven. The former part seems odd, since the OT seems to teach that Elijah (and possibly Enoch) were taken from earth to heaven. The last part, “which is in heaven”, is omitted in many mss (and most English Bibles). It is a very confusing statement if allowed to remain in the Greek present tense.
The Trinitarians twist it into Jesus giving a double-secret hidden message (that nobody would have gleaned) that he was both in heaven as God Almighty and on earth as a man at the same time.
But since the phrase is just a different formation of the “ego eimi” that we’ve already discussed in John 8:58, I read it as an historical present, ie: Jesus saying he came down from heaven – even the Son of Man who was in heaven.
Hey Jodi, do you think it is logical or rational to twist those words into a secret message from Jesus that he was both in heaven as God and on earth as the Son of Man at the same time? Yes or No?
Can YOU see any indication of such a message in the words Jesus actually said? Yes or No?
Can YOU see any reason that Nicodemus would have picked up on such a secretive hidden message when Jesus said those words to him? Yes or No?
And if not, what then would be the point of Jesus giving him that secret message in the first place?
Think about these questions and your honest answers to them the next time YOU try to change a simple statement into some bizarre and complex hidden secret meaning that NOBODY would have EVER gleaned from the actual words that were uttered.
Don’t be like the Trinitarians, Jodi. Just let the scriptures teach YOU instead of you teaching them.
Okay Jodi… I think I’m all caught up. Here’s where we’re at so far…
1. Micah says the future ruler had origins in the distant past. The obvious meaning is that the future ruler had already existed for a long time. Your assertion is that Micah was saying that the future ruler would have ancestors – like EVERYONE does.
Jodi, is it grammatically and contextually POSSIBLE that Micah included those unique words because the future ruler actually DID exist in the past? Yes or No? (I require a DIRECT and HONEST answer to this question.)
2. Jesus said, “Am I with you so long a time, and you have not known Me, Philip?” The obvious meaning of this statement is that Jesus WAS with Philip for a long time at that point – and so the vast majority of English translations (including even the KJV: “Have I been so long time with you…”) translate it correctly as an historical present.
Jesus said, “Before Abraham came into existence, I am.” The obvious meaning of this statement (especially in the context of supporting his own claim that Abraham rejoiced to see his day, and directly answering the Jews’ claim that he was less than 50) is that Jesus EXISTED before Abraham did. The majority of English translations DON’T correctly translate this one as an historical present because they are produced by Trinitarians who try to twist a double-secret hidden meaning of Jesus claiming to BE Yahweh into the statement. But the correct and unbiased meaning of the former is, “Have I been…”, and of the latter is “I existed”.
Jodi, is it grammatically and contextually POSSIBLE that Jesus said those words because he actually did exist before Abraham did? Yes or No? (I require a DIRECT and HONEST answer to this question.)
(We’ll get to a direct question on John 6 once we’ve had a chance to discuss the context of that passage in greater detail.)
John 6… 30So they asked Him, “What sign then will You perform, so that we may see it and believe You? What will You do? 31Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, as it is written: ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’”
32Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I tell you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. 33For the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”
Jodi, I believe that the manna God gave to the Israelites in the wilderness was literally sent down from heaven. (It is called “the bread of angels” in Psalm 78:24-25, and angels are in heaven, right?) But some people believe God just caused the earth to produce this food supernaturally, and that it was “from heaven” only in that it resulted from a directive God gave from heaven.
It doesn’t matter for our discussion whether you agree with me or them on this issue. My point is to show the ambiguity in the phrase “bread from heaven”. From that phrase, we can’t actually tell for sure whether this bread was literally sent from heaven, or just one of the “all good things that come from God/heaven”.
BUT… when you add the words “down from” it changes everything.
For example, there is a big difference between, “I was sent by God” and “I came down from heaven”, wouldn’t you agree?
The former is ambiguous, and doesn’t necessarily (or even likely) mean that the person was standing next to God and then God sent him into the world, right?
On the other hand, the latter is unambiguous, and most certainly means that the person WAS in heaven, and came DOWN FROM that place he used to be.
Do you agree with my assessment? If not, please give your valid and scripturally-backed rebuttal (as opposed to a copy/paste of scriptures that simply have the phrase “from heaven” – with no direct commentary from you on how each particular scripture directly applies to my assertion). Thanks.
Hi Mike,
Thanks for sticking with me and I see you have given many replies, thanks for all your time given to those!
YOU: I agree with what’s left above… and merely point out that it is irrelevant to our discussion. Yes, Jesus was the prophesied coming Messiah. Okay. What light does that shed on whether or not he preexisted?
ME: The main point I was making was not that Jesus was the prophesied Messiah, it was the fact that Jesus was declaring things about himself and the Jews at times did not understand him to the point they misinterpreted what he said altogether. Moreover, I want to add that his reply is not responding to what they misinterpreted, but rather he is ignoring what they said and is speaking more to what he himself last spoke.
I do think that it is relevant to note that what they did not understand from that which he spoke and to which they then misinterpreted, all had to do with Jesus declaring who he was according to either prophecy written that Jesus knew concerned himself, or truth he learned directly from God.
Here is an example in John 8 concerning my main point,
21 Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come. 22 Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come. 23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
Did Jesus say that he was going to kill himself? No, but that is what they spoke as to what they were thinking he meant. Did Jesus give a reply to their words of “will he kill himself”? No, his reply was according to his last words that were very profound that they did not understand and that they misinterpreted.
Let’s take out their ignorant/blind words.
Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come. And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am (he), ye shall die in your sins.
I am, represents directly the prophet like unto Moses who God would put His words in his mouth and those who did not believe would die in their sins and as well we know that those who don’t believe in him at his coming he will make war with and destroy. His reply had nothing to do with their blind hearts and deaf ears. He ignored what they said and continued to speak more to what he last spoke.
Mike, can you acknowledge that the Jews above in John 8 misinterpreted what Jesus said and that Jesus in reply did in fact ignore what they said and instead continued to speak additionally to what he last spoke?
My position is that we do in fact see this occur again later in their conversation,
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Did Jesus say that he saw Abraham? No, but that is what they spoke as to what they were thinking he meant. Did Jesus give a reply to their words of, “hast thou seen Abraham”? No, his reply was according to his last words that were very profound that they did not understand and misinterpreted.
Let’s take out their ignorant/blind words.
Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am (he).
I am, represents directly the prophesied man who would bring forth YHVH’s day, destroying the likes of the very men who Jesus is speaking to and rewarding believers with eternal life, . His reply had nothing to do with their blind hearts and deaf ears. He ignored what they said and continued to speak more to what he last spoke.
Fact, Jesus speaks according to prophecy concerning himself, he speaks according to what he has heard from YHVH (8:26) and he speaks according to what YHVH has taught him (8:28).
Verse 56, Jesus speaks of his day, which is according to prophecy of the end of one world where the wicked are destroyed and the beginning of a new earth where righteousness reigns. Jesus speaks according to what YHVH taught him, which is that YHVH had given this prophecy to the prophet Abraham where he saw it and rejoiced.
Verse 58, Jesus speaks in the context of his last words, even before Abraham was, YHVH had declared the man who would execute YHVH’s day, bringing forth righteousness and salvation in Zion for Israel YHVH’s glory, Jesus is declaring, I am (he). He is the man of Isaiah 46 to which we are directly told by YHVH that this man who is to execute YHVH’s will of bringing forth salvation was declared from the beginning. This also aligns with what Jesus had been teaching prior in chapter 8, those that believe in him will have the light of life, that it is he who will set men free.
I have given you this passage before,
Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: 11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it. 12 Hearken unto me, ye stouthearted, that are far from righteousness: 13 I bring near my righteousness; it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory.
I know I gave you this passage as well that aligns directly,
Mal 4:1-2 For behold, the day is coming, burning like a furnace; and all the arrogant and every evildoer will be chaff; and the day that is coming will set them ablaze,” says the Lord of hosts, “so that it will leave them neither root nor branch.” “But for you who fear My name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings; and you will go forth and skip about like calves from the stall.
and then there is this passage,
Zech 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion! Shout in triumph, O daughter of Jerusalem! Behold, your king is coming to you; He is just and endowed with salvation,
Abraham was glad and rejoiced as well, seeing the day of Jesus where he would fulfill the day of YHVH and such was declared from the beginning, before Abraham was.
Hi Mike,
I apply the clear given truth to John 8:56 and 58.
Let me break it down for you ,
- We are given many scriptures about the day of YHVH, that it’s a day of judgement unto punishment or reward and he who judges is a man ordained by YHVH.
- We are told it’s a day to greatly rejoice over.
- We are told that YHVH declared the END from the beginning and also declared from the beginning is a man who would execute YHVH’s council bringing forth righteousness and salvation.
- We are told that it is Jesus that carries out this day of judgment, where he does so through the anointing Spirit of YHVH that lives in him. We are even told directly that it is the day of Christ Jesus.
Phil 1:6 For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
1 Corinthians 1:8 who will also confirm you to the END, blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
John 6:40 For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the LAST day.”
John 12: He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the LAST day.
2 Tim 4:8 in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing.
5. Jesus tells us in John 8 that he speaks that which he hears from YHVH and that which YHVH has taught him.
6. We know from John 8 that the Jews could not understand Jesus’s speech and that they did not believe in him. We also see in John 8 the Jews misinterpreting something that Jesus said and Jesus’s reply was to speak further regarding what he last spoke.
Jesus saying that, “Abraham rejoiced to see my day, he saw it and was glad” does not teach us that Jesus thus must have seen Abraham, for we know that Jesus spoke that which he was taught by God. We also know that the day of Christ Jesus was declared by YHVH even before Abraham was, so we know that this is something of YHVH that could be declared to the prophet Abraham. We know YHVH did in fact declare to Abraham that through his seed all nations would be blessed, which we also know that blessing occurs on the day of Christ Jesus.
Mike, let me get this straight,
in addition to 1-6,
We know that YHVH said to Abraham by an angel that through his seed all nations would be blessed.
We know that Jews and Gentiles alike on the day of Christ Jesus he is bringing forth unto them the reward of eternal life.
We know, “in that day the nations will resort to the root of Jesse, who will stand as a signal for the peoples; and his resting place will be glorious” (Isaiah 11:10)
But it’s inconceivable that Jesus was taught by YHVH that when YHVH told Abraham that all nations would be blessed by his seed, he rejoiced over also being told by YHVH what that blessing was and when it would occur. Rather, we must believe that Jesus, the promised seed of Abraham, must had to have pre-existed in order to say that Abraham rejoiced to see his day.
We should ignore the fact that when Jesus spoke verse 56 and 58, he was indeed the promised man of YHVH’s word, declared before Abraham was, declared from the beginning who would bring forth righteousness and salvation. We should think Jesus was ignorant of Isaiah 46.
We should instead believe that the Jews, who Jesus said in John 8 do not understand his speech, in this instance understood him perfectly in verse 56, and we must believe in verse 58 Jesus is acknowledging their wisdom, where we are then to interpret, “before Abraham WAS, I AM” is Jesus speaking in historical present tense.
It’s inconceivable that in verse 58 he is actually speaking to his last words from verse 56, declaring that he IS the man of Isaiah 46 of which YHVH had declared before Abraham was. Let’s ignore and not apply the truth given throughout the bible to verses 56 and 58. Let’s disregard that prior in John 8 we see the Jews misunderstanding Jesus to the point of a false claim, which Jesus ignores that false claim and speaks according to his last spoken words, because it would be ridiculous to think that the same could have occurred in verses 56-58.
Hi Mike,
Sorry, I probably should have started with this.
YOU:
For example, with the words, “Before Abraham came into existence, I am” REALLY MEANS: ____________ (You fill this part out in your own words)
ME:
I read it as, I am he
and thus “I am (he)” means I am Christ, specifically concerning him as the anointed man who fulfills Isaiah 46, who brings forth the day of the end that was declared from the beginning, where Before Abraham was, Jesus is he.
John 8: Abraham rejoiced to see my day, he saw it and was glad.
Cor 1:7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ: 8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Isaiah 46: 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: 11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it. 12 Hearken unto me, ye stouthearted, that are far from righteousness: 13 I bring near my righteousness; it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory.
Hi Mike,
YOU:
Based on the Jews’ response to Jesus’ claim, is it clear that the Jews thought Jesus was implying that he was old enough to have known Abraham personally? Yes or No, please?
ME: Yes, that’s a no brainer Mike!
Jesus tells these same Jews in John 8, “my word hath no place in you” and “why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.” What he was speaking was revelation that he was the promised Christ.
Let’s remember that Jesus saying, “Abraham rejoiced to see my day, he saw it it was glad” was in response to them saying to him, “now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death. Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?”
These Jews had blind hearts not believing he was the Christ, the promised prophet who would speak God’s word and those who believed would be rewarded with eternal life on the coming day of Christ Jesus, the day that Abraham rejoiced over, the day of the end that YHVH declared before Abraham was.
When Jesus said, “if a man keep my saying, he shall never see death” their reply was ignorance of him being the promised Christ.
When Jesus said, “Abraham rejoiced to see my day, he saw it and was glad” their reply was ignorance of him being the promised Christ.
Jesus has not been teaching that he pre-existed and he never said he saw Abraham, though that is what these blind Jews took out from what he said, what he did say was in fact another revelation of him being the promised Christ. He responded to their misunderstanding and ignorance by speaking to what he last spoke, which was still him yet again revealing that he is the promised Christ, “before Abraham was, I am (he)”.
” I am (he)”, the anointed of the Spirit of YHVH, declared by YHVH from the beginning to bring forth the day of the end, righteousness and salvation unto eternal life for those who believe in his words and destruction to those who don’t.
Hi Mike,
ME:
Jodi: I didn’t speak incorrectly the word through has multiple meanings…
YOU: What word?
ME: I have said that Jesus speaks through YHVH and you brought up that I speak incorrectly and it’s confusing.
I responded with the below,
Jesus is speaking through/on account of what YHVH had taught him.
Jesus is speaking through/on account of the Spirit of YHVH living in him.
I didn’t speak incorrectly the word through has multiple meanings,
of place
with
in
of time
throughout
during
of means
by
by the means of
through
the ground or reason by which something is or is not done
by reason of
on account of
because of for this reason
therefore
on this accountWe can also say that YHVH speaks through/by means of Jesus.
Hi Mike,
ME:
Jodi: Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning…
Isaiah 42:4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor…
Malachi 4:1-2 “For behold, the day is coming…
Jesus was prophesied before Abraham was according to YHVH’s word…
YOU: Are you suggesting that Isaiah and Malachi lived and prophesied these things before Abraham existed? I don’t understand.
ME: No I am not. Isaiah and Malachi wrote YHVH’s word of prophecy that YHVH had declared from the beginning.
I am giving prophecies that all speak to the same thing, to which in Isaiah 46 we are told that it was declared before Abraham was, it was declared from the beginning.
We are given prophecies of YHVH’s day which is also called Christ Jesus’s day and is also called the last day, and this day is also referred to as an end. YHVH, by the prophet Isaiah, said that the man who would fulfill that day of the end had been declared by Him from the beginning.
Mike,
The definition of origin includes ancestry, it does not solely represent birth.
I gave you straight from the dictionary showing that origin is in fact defined as ancestry.
I just looked it up again and this was the first thing that popped up,
“the point or place where something begins, arises, or is derived.”
Literally I can therefore say the following,
Jesus (our ruler and Christ), his origin is of the city from ancient of days, Bethlehem.
Bethlehem is the place where Jesus took his first breath of life.
Jesus (our ruler and Christ), his origin is of the historical figure Abraham.
From Abraham, did Jesus’s DNA come.
We are also told that YHVH promised that from Abraham’s seed all nations would be blessed and that blessing comes through Christ Jesus being a ruler executing the end that YHVH had declared this man would fulfill from the beginning.
Hi Mike,
I have spoken to this before in our private debate but I am happy to cover it again,
Yes we can all say, literally according to the definition of origin, that our origin/ancestry starts with Adam, which thus would include Jesus too. However, Jesus AS CHRIST which him as such also makes him our ruler our master our king, is the seed that would come from/derive from/originate from Abraham, such is a promise YHVH made to Abraham, NOT Adam. After Abraham He made the promise to his anointed king David, that from his seed also would our CHRIST come. What do we know of Christ, he is our ruler, he is our lord and our king.
Remember, Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
and understand this is why Matthew gives us not the book of Jesus’s origin, but the book of Jesus CHRIST’S ORIGIN.
1:1 The book of the generation (GENESIS/ORIGIN/ANCESTRY) of Jesus CHRIST, the son of David, the son of Abraham.
Luke in chapter 3 does not call Jesus one time Christ, moreover in that chapter he gives us Jesus’s ancestry not Jesus Christ’s ancestry and that ancestry of Jesus he gives goes all the way to Adam. This makes perfect sense because as said, Christ was not promised to come from/derive from/originate from Adam, but that of Abraham.
Can you understand that Jesus’s origin begins with Adam like that of us all, but Jesus Christ’s origin begins with Abraham? Jesus as a human has his origin begin with Adam. Jesus as our anointed one, who is our lord, our king and thus our ruler, has his origin begin with Abraham.
Jodi: Hi Mike,
Thanks for sticking with me and I see you have given many replies, thanks for all your time given to those!
Hi Jodi. Same to you. The problem now is that we’re writing novels back and forth to each other. Addressing one novel is a time-consuming task. Addressing 6 or 7 of them at a time is daunting to say the least.
So I’m going to stop with the novels now. I’ll pick the main gist out of each post and directly respond to that point in a post of its own. If there are unrelated points, I’ll address them in separate posts.
First up…
Jodi: Jesus was declaring things about himself and the Jews at times did not understand him to the point they misinterpreted what he said altogether… his reply is not responding to what they misinterpreted, but rather he is ignoring what they said and is speaking more to what he himself last spoke.
I hear and understand your argument. I disagree that the argument is supported by any scripture. For example, you presented the following from John 8 as support…
Jodi: 21 Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come. 22 Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come. 23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
Did Jesus say that he was going to kill himself? No, but that is what they spoke as to what they were thinking he meant. Did Jesus give a reply to their words of “will he kill himself”? No, his reply was according to his last words that were very profound that they did not understand and that they misinterpreted.
First of all, the Jews said this amongst themselves. They did not directly ASK Jesus the question, as is made clear from the pronouns “he” and “himself”. Those indicate people talking amongst themselves ABOUT another person – not people who are directly asking that person a question, ie: “Do you mean that you’re going to kill yourself?”
There many other times in scripture where the listeners were asking questions about Jesus’ teaching amongst themselves, but Jesus knew what they were thinking. Here’s one example…
Matthew 9… 3On seeing this, some of the scribes said to themselves, “This man is blaspheming!” 4But Jesus knew what they were thinking and so he said, “Why do you harbor evil in your hearts? 5Which is easier: to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up and walk?’
In each case, “Jesus knew what they were thinking” is followed by “and so he said to them…”
In the passage you offered, it is not clear if Jesus knew what they were thinking. It IS, however, clear that they were not asking Jesus a direct question, and so him not directly answering their question is understandable since they didn’t ask him one.
But even without answering their question, his continued teaching made clear to anyone with the question of him killing himself that he was talking about having been – and going back to a place where they could not go.
Can you find an example where the Jews actually did directly ask Jesus a question, and instead of answering them he just ignored them and continued on with his teaching as if the question was never asked?
Because then we’d have a better example with which to compare John 8:56-58.
Jodi: I have given you this passage before,
Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning…
Mal 4:1-2 For behold, the day is coming…
Zech 9:9 Behold, your king is coming to you…
Yes, you have given them all before… but they have no bearing on any disagreement we’ve had. They are all written by people who lived LONG after Abraham died – and so have no bearing on your opinion that God gave Abraham a prophecy about a future king and Abraham rejoiced over that prophecy.
Besides, you’ve since acknowledged that there is no such scripture, and so the choices are now narrowed down to God either showed Jesus something that isn’t recorded in scripture (like you now believe), or Jesus actually did know Abraham (like I and his listeners at the time understood him as saying).
As to which one is right – context tells us. Because along with their assumption that Jesus was saying he had known Abraham was the accusation that he wasn’t even 50 years old. Jesus’ direct response to their direct question was that he existed before Abraham even came into existence.
Jodi: Verse 58, Jesus speaks in the context of his last words, even before Abraham was, YHVH had declared the man who would execute YHVH’s day, bringing forth righteousness and salvation in Zion for Israel YHVH’s glory, Jesus is declaring, I am (he). He is the man of Isaiah 46 to which we are directly told by YHVH that this man who is to execute YHVH’s will of bringing forth salvation was declared from the beginning.
This is what you believe the definition of I am/I existed is…
Before Abraham came into existence… Yahweh had declared a man who would execute His day, Isaiah spoke of this man, and I am that man.
Who could have ever gotten all that from the phrase “I am”?
Also, you should really either show through scripture that God made such a declaration to anyone before Abraham even existed, or stop claiming that it happened.
You claim: “even before Abraham was, YHVH had declared the man who would execute YHVH’s day”
Show me. When did YHVH make this declaration? To whom? In which scripture can I read about this declaration that God made before Abraham was even born?
Jodi: This also aligns with what Jesus had been teaching prior in chapter 8, those that believe in him will have the light of life, that it is he who will set men free.
Keep reading…
John 8… 24For unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”
25“Who are You?” they asked.
“Just what I have been telling you from the beginning,” Jesus replied.
See? There is no mystery or secret convoluted meaning of the phrase “I am”/”I am he”, Jodi.
In this case, the meaning is: Unless you believe that I am THE ONE I’VE BEEN TELLING YOU ALL ALONG THAT I AM, you will die in your sins.
Jesus actually explicitly spelled out what he meant by “I am he”, right?
Jodi, the owner of this site has been hinting for a while that he is going to ban me.
I will continue on with your posts that came after the ones I addressed today as soon as I can… IF I’m not banned.
If I am, please contact me at [email protected] so we can carry on with our discussion.
Cheers.
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