Private Preexistence Thread For Jodi & Mike Only

[Jodi]

Hi Mike,

YOU: Great. I read all your scriptures, and didn’t see any of them that refer to Abraham rejoicing to see Jesus’ day. Just like you finally acknowledged that there are no prophesies to Abraham about a future ruler, you’ll have to honestly acknowledge that there are no scriptures that say Abraham rejoiced to see Jesus’ day.

Me: That is wrong, scripture tells me that God indeed gave prophecy to Abraham of the coming day where Jesus’s Christ would be a RULER fulfilling the promised inheritance and destroying the wicked, we are even told that Abraham had seen Jesus’s day and rejoiced. 

Galatians 3:14 that upon the Gentiles might come the blessing of Abraham in Christ Jesus; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith….16 Now to Abraham were the promises spoken, and to his seed. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. 17 Now this I say: A covenant confirmed beforehand by God, the law, which came four hundred and thirty years after, doth not disannul, so as to make the promise of none effect. 18 For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no more of promise: but God hath granted it to Abraham by promise.

Hebrews 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went…13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Paul’s word of God is not enough for you Mike?

We are given that God SPOKE to Abraham concerning Christ being a ruler, it doesn’t matter at all that there is not an OT prophecy that we can read that says such, there doesn’t have to be. 

We see from the passages already mentioned and the ones below what was given to Abraham by God, he saw a ruler coming down from heaven giving the promised inheritance, the reward of eternal life to the faithful, and he saw this ruler destroying the wicked, bringing forth peace throughout all the earth and when he saw it, according to Jesus, he was glad and rejoiced.

1 Thes 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loveth us, and loosed us from our sins by his blood;..7 Behold, he cometh with the clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they that pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth shall mourn over him. Even so, Amen.

 

[mikeboll64]

Mike: “In which part of Jesus’ response, exactly, is Jesus saying he is greater than Abraham? Which exact words?”

“Do you acknowledge that IF we translated the last part of 8:58 as a historical present, the EXACT phrase would be, “before Abraham existed, I existed”? Yes or No, please?”

 

Jodi:  NO

I wasn’t able to find a direct answer to that first question in your post, and I think you must have misunderstood the second one, based on your clearly erroneous answer.  Perhaps you thought I was asking if it SHOULD BE translated as an historical present.  I wasn’t.  I was asking you to acknowledge that IF it WAS translated as an historical present, it would literally read, “before Abraham existed, I existed”.  It is impossible to honestly answer “NO” to this question, because it is simply a fact.  It’s the same as me asking if we translated “I exist” in a past tense instead of a present tense, would it then be “I existed”?  And the ONLY answer is “YES”.  It was basically a rhetorical question, since there is only one answer to it, Jodi.  I just wanted you to state that only answer for the record.

But let me show you…

Jodi:  Before Abraham was (Ginomai), I am (Eimi)

Ginomai, to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being

be 255, come to pass 82, be made 69

Eimi, to be, to exist, to happen, to be present

You can see it from the info that YOU posted!  “Before Abraham come into existence, I exist.”

The past tense of “come into existence” is “CAME into existence”, right?  And the past tense of “exist” is “EXISTED”, right?

So translating the same definitions that YOU posted above into the past tense would render:  Before Abraham came into existence, I existed.

We don’t have to worry about the first part about Abraham, since it’s already translated as a past tense in the Greek text.  I’m simply asking you to state for the record that IF, IF, IF we also translated the last part about Jesus as a past tense, the MEANING would be, “Before Abraham came into existence, I existed.”

(Note:  I’m not quibbling about “exist” vs “am” here, because, “Before Abraham WAS, I WAS” means the same thing anyway.)

So Jodi, are you able to bring yourself to honestly acknowledge that the past tense of “I am/I exist” is “I was/I existed”?  Please do so for the record.  Thanks.

[mikeboll64]

Jodi: Why didn’t the author just use the same word then, if it is suppose to read Abraham existed, I existed?

Because two different words are used that leaves an opening that the author speaking God’s word used two different words for the very purpose to establish a distinction.

There is a distinction.  Just like I have the choice of saying, “Before Jodi existed, I existed” OR… “Before Jodi came into existence, I existed” OR… “Before Jodi existed, I came into existence”, etc.

But consider what that distinction means for your previous arguments, Jodi.  Jesus chose to use ginomai for Abraham, right?  And that means “come into existence/begin to be”, right?  So whatever Jesus means by the words “I am” occurred BEFORE Abraham even CAME INTO existence, right?

So now you’re saying that Jesus’ actual metaphorical origin was Adam and Eve, and that you are linking the “origins” in Micah 5:2 with Abraham because they refer to Jesus’ origins of becoming the Christ/Ruler, right?  And you’re arguing that the common phrase “I am” equals “Christ”, right?

So the fact that Jesus made the distinction of using ginomai for Abraham (“before Abraham CAME INTO existence”) shoots all of that down, because if “I am” means “Christ”, and the “Christ” aspect of Jesus proceeded from the loins of Abraham, then Jesus wouldn’t have been able to refer to this “Christ aspect” as being BEFORE Abraham even CAME INTO existence, right?

Jodi:  I AM means CHRIST

John 8: 25 Who art thou?

John 8:53 Whom makest thou thyself?

John 8:58 Before Abraham was, I AM

Aside from you shooting down your own argument by pointing us to the distinction in terminology that Jesus used in 8:58, there is also the logical issue…

In what world would the words “I am” mean “Christ”?  Is “Christ” listed as one of the definitions of “eimi”?  Of course not.  But let’s translate 8:58 with “Christ” as the definition of “ego eimi” and see what happens…

“Before Abraham came into existence, Christ!” 

What the freak would that even mean, Jodi?  Christ what?  What about Christ?  It would be a nonsensical statement for Jesus to make, and one that nobody listening to him would understand – even his own apostles.

So here’s where we are…

Micah 5:2 speaks of a future ruler whose origins are in the distant past.  The default understanding is that Micah is talking about his LITERAL origin – not a metaphorical one – because nobody counts the “origin” of a person or event as the time it was first planned or foretold.  But you insisted on the metaphorical interpretation anyway.  So I pointed out that, if true, his origins would be Adam and Eve, not Abraham.  So then you said it was Abraham because it referred to his origin of being the promised Christ.  But then Jesus’ use of ginomai for Abraham in 8:58 just shot that theory to pieces.

And then you tried to say that the words “I am” somehow mean “Christ” – which is simply nonsense.

Jodi, is it even remotely possible that the “origin” in Micah was indeed a LITERAL origin?

Is it even remotely possible that the “I am” in 8:58 is a historical present, making Jesus’ statement, “Before Abraham came into existence, I existed”?

Because even leaving it in the present tense, the MEANING is still the same:  Before Abraham came into existence, I exist.

The meaning is exactly the same, it’s just that we wouldn’t usually use the present tense in that case.  But imagine a Russian immigrant with broken English telling you, “I am married to her for 20 years now.” Because that IS how they talk.  And even some Jews still today speak in historical presents like that.  Look, I just now Googled “I am married years” and found this on the top page…

You can easily tell that the top one is from someone for whom English is a second language, while the second one is proper English.  But when you read that first one, even though WE don’t use historical presents in English, can you tell that the writer is talking about HAVING BEEN married for a year?  Does it take rocket science to figure out that his original language uses historical presents and that some habits are hard to break?

Please read this very short Wiki article on Historical Presents.  It even gives examples where we DO use them in English that I hadn’t thought about.  Here’s an example…

Jodi:  What happened next, Mike?

Mike:  Well then she goes, “What are you talking about?” and I’m (I AM) like, “I already told you”, and she says, “I didn’t understand…”

Do you see that all three of the bolded words are historical presents, intended to speak of a past event in present terms to draw the reader/listener into it as if it is happening right in front of them now?

The article also points out journalistic English headlines where it is still common:  FBI Arrests Suspect in Kidnapping Case

Again, the bolded word is an historical present.

And from the Wiki article…  “The New Testament, written in Koine Greek in the 1st century CE, is notable for use of the historical present, particularly in the Gospel of Mark.[10][11][12]”

Jodi, I know we are on opposite sides of this issue, but I ask again… Is it even remotely possible that Jesus, using an historical present (as was common in the NT) was straight up telling the Jews that he had been in existence before Abraham came into existence?

And if so, wouldn’t that match PERFECTLY with it being his answer to their question, “You aren’t even 50 years old, and you’ve seen Abraham?” ?

Wouldn’t his answer, “You THINK I’m younger than 50, but truly I tell you that I’m way OLDER than Abraham”, perfectly match the context?

Think about it – because Micah 5:2 and John 8:58 are just the tip of the iceberg.  There are dozens of other verses that we haven’t gotten to that clearly support the true and most logical/natural meaning of 5:2 and 8:58.

 

[mikeboll64]

Jodi: We are given in Matthew the GENESIS/ORIGIN of Jesus Christ and it’s Abraham…

The origin of Jesus as Christ which thus makes him the ruler over Israel, however comes from being of the seed of Abraham. This is why Matthew says that he is giving us the book of the origin of Jesus Christ and that origin given is Abraham, not Adam.

…from you shall come forth for me one who is to be ruler in Israel (who we know is Christ), whose coming forth/origin/ancestry is from of old, from ancient days (who we know is Abraham).

As I did already point out, even Matthew in calculating generations/men of the same stock, establishes how far back it is from Christ to Abraham. The origin/ancestry of Jesus Christ goes back to David of the tribe of Judah and goes even further back beginning with Abraham.

Of course all of this argument is now null and void since you pointed out Jesus’ use of “ginomai” in 8:58 – which places his “Christ origin” BEFORE Abraham even existed – let alone received the promise from God that the nations would be blessed by his seed, right?

[mikeboll64]

Mike:  I read all your scriptures, and didn’t see any of them that refer to Abraham rejoicing to see Jesus’ day. Just like you finally acknowledged that there are no prophesies to Abraham about a future ruler, you’ll have to honestly acknowledge that there are no scriptures that say Abraham rejoiced to see Jesus’ day.

 

Jodi:  Um, how about this scripture,

John 8:56 Jesus said that Abraham rejoiced to see his day and he saw it and was glad. 

My point was that there was no OT scripture to SUPPORT Jesus’ claim about Abraham rejoicing to see his day, and therefore Jesus must have actually KNOWN Abraham in the past – which is exactly what the Jews understood him to be saying…  “You’re not even 50!  How could you have talked to Abraham to know what he did or didn’t rejoice over?”

Jodi: You don’t think that the day Jesus was talking about that the prophet Abraham saw, was the day spoken of in the below passages?

Do any of those OT passages even mention Abraham – let alone say that he rejoiced when God showed him something via prophecy? If not, then no.

Jodi, I was looking for a QUOTE from Abraham (or at least a writing about him) where someone wrote that he rejoiced over a future event that God showed him in a vision or something.  My point was the same as the Jews’ point:  How in the world could YOU know such a personal thing about Abraham when you’ve never met him, and such a thing isn’t recorded in scripture?

[Jodi]

Wow Mike,

YOU: My point was the same as the Jews’ point: How in the world could YOU know such a personal thing about Abraham when you’ve never met him, and such a thing isn’t recorded in scripture?

ME:

First off you want to admit that you are like minded with those who Jesus declared were the sons of the devil, who Jesus said were vipers, hypocrites, blind guides, unbelievers of truth, folks who didn’t understand what he was saying because they were not able to hear? Okay more power to you bro!

Second, Jesus is the one who received the Anointing Spirit of God without measure, the Spirit of Wisdom, Understanding, Council and Might and Knowledge, where he was speaking God’s word not his own, so when he said that Abraham rejoiced to see his day he was saying that through YHVH, who gave Abraham that prophecy concerning Jesus fulfilling YHVH’s Day in the first place, which was declared before Abraham was. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Jodi]

Hi Mike,

John 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

John 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

[Jodi]

YOU: “In which part of Jesus’ response, exactly, is Jesus saying he is greater than Abraham? Which exact words?”

ME:

I never claimed that Jesus directly said those exact words.

In the passage below when Jesus is asked outright if he is greater than Jacob, he does not directly answer that question. What he does do is declare a truth about who he is, to which does indeed tell us that he is greater than Jacob. We know from what Jesus teaches concerning himself that he is greater than Abraham in the same manner and we do know that he declared without being asked, that he was greater than Jonah and Solomon.

John 4:12 Art thou greater than our father Jacob, which gave us the well, and drank thereof himself, and his children, and his cattle? 13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again: 14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life…24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. 25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. 26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am (he).

[Jodi]

Good Morning Mike,

I am really glad that I caught what you said in your last post before I went to post what I had intended to post because it wouldn’t have sat well  due to your lack of knowledge or belief in something clearly laid out as a fundamental truth. I’ve got to change up a bit what I was originally going to post.

Last night I gave you John 8:28, but look at what was said before and as well after too,

John 8:26 I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him. 27 They understood not that he spake to them of the Father. 28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

Let’s not forget, too what we are taught in John 3:3 He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true. 34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. 43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

The Jews were not understanding at all what Jesus was saying, and they especially did not understand  that he was speaking through YHVH.  Verse 56 is YHVH’s word given to Jesus to speak.  YHVH did in fact give Abraham prophecy of YHVH’s day and that his own seed would execute it as the arm of YHVH and Abraham rejoiced over it.

57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

Their reply makes it evident that they still do not understand or believe that Jesus is speaking through YHVH  even though he tells them again that fact, immediately before saying verse 56.

Jesus was not at all teaching that Abraham saw Jesus’s day because he existed during Abraham’s time.  Abraham saw Jesus’s day because YHVH existed during Abraham’s time and He told him about Jesus’s day. Jesus was declaring that he is the prophesied man who would fulfill YHVH’s Day and it was a day that Abraham saw through YHVH and rejoiced over.

58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Mike, yes I understand that if you believe “I am” is to be interpreted through historical present tense, the meaning would be rendered as “I existed”. 

I get it,  just as the Jews thought you think likewise, the only way for Jesus to have said what he said is if Jesus existed during Abraham’s day, so in verse 58 Jesus was extending to further declare that not only did he exist during Abraham’s day, he existed before Abraham existed.

The truth however is, YHVH was there, not Jesus, giving the prophecy to Abraham of a man of his seed who would execute YHVH’s day, before Abraham even existed this man was declared to execute YHVH’s day, Jesus can thus rightfully say, before Abraham was, I am (he).

In John 4:26 the translator added in “he”, without the “he” would you read it as Jesus saying “thee existed”? Of course not, even without the added “he” we see that “am” represents Christ.

Look at this,

John 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am (he), and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

Once again the “he” is added by the translator and we know that the “am” does not represent “exist” it represents Christ who would be slain according to the predetermined purpose and foreknowledge of God.

If the passage read, before Abraham was, I am he, would you read it as, before Abraham was, I existed he?

“Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.”

Once again, the man who would execute that day was declared before Abraham existed, so Jesus can rightfully declare that before Abraham existed, I am he.

 

 

 

 

[mikeboll64]

Jodi:  …but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things…

For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God…

I agree that God’s servant Jesus spoke about things he learned from God.  But look who’s actually doing the speaking…

My Father taught me X, so I will say X to you.  My Father told me to speak X, so I will speak X to you.

This is not a case of God literally speaking through Jesus as if He’s the ventriloquist and Jesus is His puppet.  If it was, then it would be God Himself saying, “but as my Father hath taught me…”, and God Himself as “he whom God hath sent…”.  You understand that, right?

Jodi:  42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. 43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

The Jews were not understanding at all what Jesus was saying, and they especially did not understand  that he was speaking through YHVH.  Verse 56 is YHVH’s word given to Jesus to speak. 

All four verses above are Jesus speaking in the first person. What you are claiming is that Jesus said the words in 42, 43, and 55 about his Father, but then out of the blue, God steps in and says the words of 56 through Jesus’ mouth.

That’s not only unsubstantiated nonsense, but what makes it worse is that it reflects yet another CHANGE in your story.

First you were saying that Micah spoke of Jesus’ “metaphorical origins” being in the seed of Abraham.  Then I pointed out that in your understanding, his “metaphorical origins” would be in the seed of Adam, not Abraham.  So then you said that Micah was talking about the “Christ aspect” of Jesus, and therefore the “metaphorical origins” of his “Christ aspect” would be in the seed of Abraham, not Adam – because Abraham received the promise of a future great ruler coming from his seed.  So I pointed out that there is no OT scripture to support Abraham knowing about a future great ruler coming from his seed – only that the nations would be blessed.  So then you tried to link OT statements that had nothing to do with Abraham as being this link between Abraham and some future great ruler.

Then I simply pointed out that in John 8:58, Jesus makes reference to BEFORE Abraham even existed – which shut your entire “great ruler having ‘metaphorical origins’ in the seed of Abraham” argument down once and for all.

So now what?  You’re changing your story again to now claim that it wasn’t even Jesus speaking any of the words that hurt your doctrine?  Is that the new game?  If Jesus says something that doesn’t align with your understanding, you can just claim, “Well, that was the Father speaking those words through Jesus in that sentence!” ?

Does that really seem reasonable to you, Jodi?

Jodi:  YHVH did in fact give Abraham prophecy of YHVH’s day and that his own seed would execute it as the arm of YHVH and Abraham rejoiced over it.

Scripture, please?

Jodi:  57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

Their reply makes it evident that they still do not understand or believe that Jesus is speaking through YHVH  even though he tells them again that fact, immediately before saying verse 56.

First of all, you keep saying that “Jesus is speaking through YHVH” when you mean to say, “YHVH is speaking through Jesus”.  It’s confusing the discussion.

Secondly, there is NO indication whatsoever in the verses leading up to 56 that the Father ever literally spoke HIS OWN words through the mouth of Jesus.  In fact, the very idea is ruled out by the words Jesus actually says. For example, the Father would never say, “I know him and keep his saying” or, “I proceeded forth and came from God”.  These are clearly Jesus speaking ABOUT God – not God literally saying things through the mouth of Jesus.  There is absolutely nothing in Jesus’ words in the entire Bible that would indicate that God literally spoke words through Jesus’ mouth at any time.  Yes, Jesus spoke the things God told him to and the things God had taught him.  No, God Himself never literally spoke His own words through Jesus’ mouth.

Jodi:  Jesus was not at all teaching that Abraham saw Jesus’s day because he existed during Abraham’s time.

I clearly understand the point you WANT to make.  It’s just that you’re not even coming close to making it.  So far you have a bunch alternate theories that have all been debunked, and this simple statement above that it didn’t happen because you say so.

Jodi:  Abraham saw Jesus’s day because YHVH existed during Abraham’s time and He told him about Jesus’s day.

Scripture?

Jodi: Jesus was declaring that he is the prophesied man who would fulfill YHVH’s Day and it was a day that Abraham saw through YHVH and rejoiced over.

Wait a minute.  Are you saying that Jesus himself spoke the words of 55, and then God stepped in and spoke the words of 56 through Jesus’ mouth, and then Jesus took over again and spoke the words of 58 himself?  Is that what you’re saying, Jodi?  Really?

And once Jesus took control of his own mouth again, you’re saying that Jesus declared that “he is the prophesied man who would fulfill YHVH’s Day” with the words, “Before Abraham existed, I am” – which was supposed to be an answer to the Jews’ accusation that he was less than 50 years old and therefore could not have known what Abraham did or didn’t rejoice over?  Wow.

How about this instead…

Jesus mentioned something personal about Abraham.  The Jews said, “Dude, you’re not even 50, so how could you have ever talked to Abraham about such things?”  And then Jesus responded, “You only THINK that I’m less than 50.  In reality, I was around before Abraham was even a gleam in his daddy’s eye!”

THAT’S the teaching, Jodi.  That is the natural, straightforward understanding of the entire exchange.  And only someone with a personal desire for the Bible to teach what they WANT it to teach instead of what it does would jump through so many hoops, keep changing their story in light of scriptures they hadn’t previously considered, and end up with Jesus speaking in 55, God taking over in 56, and then Jesus taking over again in 58 – in order to tell a long story about a prophesied man that NOBODY listening would have understood based on the 5 simple words he actually uttered.

What if you let go of your doctrine for a second, and just tried to understand the most natural meaning of those words, Jodi?  They thought he didn’t know Abraham because he wasn’t even 50 years old.  He corrected them by saying that he had existed before Abraham was even born.

And if we add Micah 5:2 to John 8:58, we now have TWO independent scriptures that explicitly teach that Jesus existed long before he dwelt on earth.  And there are many others we haven’t gotten to yet.

But so far, your arguments are:

1.  The “origins” in 5:2 are metaphorical – even though there isn’t any actual indication that they are metaphorical, and even though nobody would ever consider the origin of Israel’s captivity in Egypt, for example, to be the moment God prophesied about it many years before it actually happened.

2.  Jesus spoke in 55, then God spoke in 56, and then Jesus spoke again in 58, telling a huge story that nobody would have understood because he did that using 5 words that sound exactly like he was saying he existed before Abraham existed.

That’s where we are right now, Jodi.  Is it time for me to bring in another scripture to compare with the first two?

[mikeboll64]

Jodi:  Mike, yes I understand that if you believe “I am” is to be interpreted through historical present tense, the meaning would be rendered as “I existed”. 

I get it,  just as the Jews thought you think likewise, the only way for Jesus to have said what he said is if Jesus existed during Abraham’s day, so in verse 58 Jesus was extending to further declare that not only did he exist during Abraham’s day, he existed before Abraham existed.

Yes, that is 100% accurate.  And although I realize that you added the “just as the Jews thought” as a detriment to my understanding, it actually adds support since those Jews spoke the same language as Jesus much better than any of us understand it today.  I understand that you want Jesus to have been using those 5 words to convey some secret spiritual message about a prophesied ruler, but in reality he merely pointed out that he existed before Abraham did.

Jodi, this is what Jesus actually said…

Before Abraham existed, I am.

I want to translate the clear historical present that is commonplace in the Greek language into the proper English past tense…

Before Abraham existed, I existed.

You want to translate those 5 words as…

Before Abraham existed, and with no scriptural reference whatsoever, God prophesied to the non-existent Abraham about a future ruler, and I am that man, who literally IS much younger than 50, but my actual origins are from the moment I was first prophesied about… to Abraham… before Abraham even existed… and it’s not in any scripture.

The first two tell the same story.  The last one is clearly being forced into the text by someone who WANTS the Bible to teach something other than what it really does teach.

 

Jodi:  The truth however is, YHVH was there, not Jesus, giving the prophecy to Abraham of a man of his seed who would execute YHVH’s day, before Abraham even existed this man was declared to execute YHVH’s day, Jesus can thus rightfully say, before Abraham was, I am (he).

So like this?

“Dude, your not even 50 years old!” 

“Oh yeah?  Before Abraham existed, I am he!”

“What?!?  You were who?  What the freak are you talking about, homie?”

“What?  You didn’t get that ‘I am the person God prophesied to Abraham about before he even existed – despite there being no scriptural reference for this prophecy or any possibility of God prophesying to someone who doesn’t yet even exist’ from those words?”

“Nah fam.  It sounded to us like you were about to answer our accusation that you are less than 50 by telling us that you existed before Abraham did – but then you add ‘he’ to the end and messed us all up. 

🙂

Jodi:  In John 4:26 the translator added in “he”, without the “he” would you read it as Jesus saying “thee existed”? Of course not, even without the added “he” we see that “am” represents Christ.

Jodi, the word “am” just means “am”.  It never means “Christ”, nor is it ever a codeword for “Christ”.  And yes, there are many idiosyncrasies that must be overcome when translating from one language to another.  That doesn’t give us free reign to twist those differences into utter gibberish to suit our own desires.

Jodi:  Look at this,

John 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am (he)…

Once again the “he” is added by the translator and we know that the “am” does not represent “exist” it represents Christ who would be slain according to the predetermined purpose and foreknowledge of God.

If the passage read, before Abraham was, I am he, would you read it as, before Abraham was, I existed he?

No.  Just as I wouldn’t understand, “I am going to the store” as “I exist going to the store”.  And if someone asked if I was there to fix their dryer and I said, “I am”, then no, it doesn’t mean “I exist”.  It means I AM the dude there to fix the dryer.

Jodi:  Once again, the man who would execute that day was declared before Abraham existed…

In which scripture – before Abraham existed – was this man declared?  (Also, please acknowledge for the record that your new “before Abraham existed” argument debunks your own previous “origins in the seed of Abraham” argument.  Because if his “origins” are from when he was first declared, and he was declared BEFORE Abraham even existed… Thanks.)

Jodi:  …so Jesus can rightfully declare that before Abraham existed, I am he.

There is no “he”.  No implied “he”.  No grammatical idiosyncrasy that that would validate a “he” there.  Nor would Jesus saying, “I am he” indicate to ANYONE that he meant he was a man who was prophesied about before Abraham even existed – in a scripture that doesn’t even exist and therefore no Jew would have known about.

[mikeboll64]

Hi Jodi.  Happy Sunday.

It’s more likely than not that Micah 5:2 speaks of Jesus’s literal origins being from very ancient times.  I understand and acknowledge that you don’t WANT that to be the case, but it remains the most logical straightforward understanding of the Hebrew text.

It’s also more likely than not that John 8:58 has Jesus addressing the Jews’ accusation that he is less than 50 by explicitly telling them that he existed before Abraham even came into existence.  Again, I understand and acknowledge that you don’t WANT that to be the case, but it remains the most logical straightforward understanding of the Greek text.

Next, let’s consider John 6…

John 6:38… For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but to do the will of Him who sent me.

The most logical straightforward understanding of these words is that Jesus came down from heaven to do the will of the Father.

Thoughts?

[Jodi]

Hi Mike,

You are trying to claim something ridiculous I never said or meant. 

Jesus says that he speaks according to what the Father has taught him.

You said it, you agree, that Jesus spoke about things that God taught him.

YHVH spoke to Abraham through an angel, Jesus was not there. YHVH, who called Abraham a prophet, taught Jesus that the prophet Abraham had rejoiced to see his day, so then Jesus can rightly tell others, “Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad”.  VERY SIMPLE!!

FACTS,  Jesus had been declaring who he was to them throughout John 8 but they kept on not understanding what he meant by what he said, and who he was making himself out to be was not some spirit entity who had come to earth, and had existed before, he was the man who had been anointed with the Spirit without measure, the Son of God who would die on the cross and be resurrected and have a second coming to fulfill YHVH’s day. These Jews continuously denied Jesus was the promised Christ, and for any Jew who declared that he was they would kick them out of the synagogue for it, so people were afraid themselves to confess.

He was declaring himself to be the very man the prophets had declared would come, which that coming was declared even before Abraham was, as all things YHVH had created and brought forth, including bringing forth all the prophets which included Abraham, were by reason of and for Jesus.

When Jesus declared, “28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am (he), and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

The “I am” was past, present and future tense.

Past, as Jesus can say “I am” as it relates to him being the man of prophecy  promised to come who would be Christ and die according to Isaiah 7.

Present and Future, as Jesus can say “I am” as it relates to him being at that moment the promised Christ who would die on the cross.

Jesus as the man who would die on the cross, was according to God’s determined purpose and foreknowledge, Jesus as I AM, is even before Abraham was.

When Jesus said, “before Abraham was, I am” was also past, present and future tense.

The “I am” was directly related to him being the man who would bring forth YHVH’s day.

Past, as God had declared the END from the beginning where a man would execute YHVH’s day and Jesus is he, he can rightful say,  “before Abraham was, I am”.

Present and future, as Jesus can say “I am” as he is that promised man who WOULD then fulfill YHVH’s day in the future.

 

 

 

 

[Jodi]

Jesus is speaking through/on account of what YHVH had taught him.

Jesus is speaking through/on account of the Spirit of YHVH living in him.

I didn’t speak incorrectly the word through has multiple meanings,

of place
with
in
of time
throughout
during
of means
by
by the means of
through
the ground or reason by which something is or is not done
by reason of
on account of
because of for this reason
therefore
on this account

We can also say that YHVH speaks through/by means of Jesus.

 

[Jodi]

Mike,

The scriptures do exist,

Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: 11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it. 12 Hearken unto me, ye stouthearted, that are far from righteousness: 13 I bring near my righteousness; it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory.

Isaiah 42:4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. 5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.

Malachi 4:1-2 “For behold, the day is coming, burning like a furnace; and all the arrogant and every evildoer will be chaff; and the day that is coming will set them ablaze,” says the Lord of hosts, “so that it will leave them neither root nor branch.” “But for you who fear My name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings; and you will go forth and skip about like calves from the stall.

Zephaniah 3:14-20
Shout for joy, O daughter of Zion!
Shout in triumph, O Israel!
Rejoice and exult with all your heart,
O daughter of Jerusalem!
The Lord has taken away His judgments against you,
He has cleared away your enemies.
The King of Israel, the Lord, is in your midst;
You will fear disaster no more.
In that day it will be said to Jerusalem:
“Do not be afraid, O Zion;
Do not let your hands fall limp.
read more.
“The Lord your God is in your midst,
A victorious warrior.
He will exult over you with joy,
He will be quiet in His love,
He will rejoice over you with shouts of joy.
“I will gather those who grieve about the appointed feasts—
They came from you, O Zion;
The reproach of exile is a burden on them.
“Behold, I am going to deal at that time
With all your oppressors,
I will save the lame
And gather the outcast,
And I will turn their shame into praise and renown
In all the earth.
“At that time I will bring you in,
Even at the time when I gather you together;
Indeed, I will give you renown and praise
Among all the peoples of the earth,
When I restore your fortunes before your eyes,”
Says the Lord.

Jesus was prophesied before Abraham was according to YHVH’s word, he was of YHVH’s word from the beginning where he would execute YHVH’s purpose  being a judge bringing forth righteousness and brining salvation to Zion for Israel YHVH’s glory.

Before Abraham was, Jesus can rightfully say that I am (he).

Mike, I am not going to ignore clear given truth, I am going to apply it.  I am not going to be like minded with blind guides. with these sons of the Devil, hypocrite Jews who had a serious problem understanding much of what Jesus was talking about.

[Jodi]

Hi Mike,

YOU:

1.  The “origins” in 5:2 are metaphorical – even though there isn’t any actual indication that they are metaphorical, and even though nobody would ever consider the origin of Israel’s captivity in Egypt, for example, to be the moment God prophesied about it many years before it actually happened.

2.  Jesus spoke in 55, then God spoke in 56, and then Jesus spoke again in 58, telling a huge story that nobody would have understood because he did that using 5 words that sound exactly like he was saying he existed before Abraham existed.

ME:

1. No, the “origins” of Jesus are not metaphorical in Micah 5:2, the prophesied master/ruler has his origin from the tribe of Judah through David and going even further back to ancient of days, with Abraham, as from his seed a master/ruler over Israel would come.
2. Uh no, Jesus spoke in 55 and Jesus spoke in 56 declaring something of himself that was HUGE that Abraham rejoiced over and it fits in very well with all that he had declared prior in John 8 that was also HUGE that they didn’t understand or believe in. This all  led up to what he said in verse 58 declaring that it is he of YHVH’s word before Abraham even existed, who would bring forth the end that was declared from the beginning, judgment day of the believers and of the non believers.

Mike, let’s get this straight, the man who said he could do nothing of himself giving all credit to YHVH, the man who said the Spirit of YHVH was upon him for the purpose of him to be sent out to speak God’s word and fulfill that which he spoke of in John 8:28, dying on the cross, declares that Abraham rejoiced to see “his day” for the purpose to teach that he pre-existed even before Abraham and not for the purpose of him to declare he was the very man of YHVH”s word from the beginning who would be judging these “sons of the devil”??

 

[Jodi]

Hi Mike,

You gave, John 6:38… For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but to do the will of Him who sent me.

Oh good, we are going to discuss now the sending!

You: The most logical straightforward understanding of these words is that Jesus came down from heaven to do the will of the Father.

ME: 

Truth of a scripture is held in truth from other scriptures.  Jesus most certainly did come down from heaven as in he came down directly from God, he did not speak worldly things he spoke heavenly things as he had come from God. 

Please acknowledge that the kingdom of heaven and kingdom of God mean the same thing and even Jesus uses them interchangeably.

Matthew 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Matthew 5: 3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 5: 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 6: 9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. 10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven….33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Matthew 21: 31 Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you,That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.

Mathew 23: 13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

Please acknowledge that Jesus says in the below passages that he came from God.

John 13: 1 Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end. 2 And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon’s son, to betray him; 3 Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God;

John 16:28 I came from the Father and have come into the world, and now I am leaving the world and going to the Father.”

John 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

Jesus could have verily well said instead, I come from heaven, I came from heaven and have come into the world, I proceeded forth and came from heaven, because “from heaven” and “from God” mean the same thing, such as the kingdom of God and the kingdom of heaven mean the same thing.

 

[Jodi]

Hi Mike,

Luke 20: 2 And spake unto him, saying, Tell us, by what authority doest thou these things? or who is he that gave thee this authority? 3 And he answered and said unto them, I will also ask you one thing; and answer me: 4 The baptism of John, was it from heaven, or of men? 5 And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say, Why then believed ye him not? 6 But and if we say, Of men; all the people will stone us: for they be persuaded that John was a prophet. 7 And they answered, that they could not tell whence it was. 8 And Jesus said unto them, Neither tell I you by what authority I do these things.

John 17: 14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. 18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

Ephes 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; …11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, 19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

Mike, every time Jesus speaks of being sent he is speaking as the man to whom God gave the Spirit to without measure for the purpose of sending him out to fulfill God’s will. He was not of this world, he came down from heaven/he came from God. Those who received a gift of the Spirit to be sent out as prophets, apostles, etc.., they too were considered not of this world as Jesus was and they were sent just as Jesus was sent.

 

 

[Jodi]

Good Morning Mike,

Hope you are having a good week so far!

Can you explain the below, it was the Son of man that came down from heaven?

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. 

The below scriptures apply,

John 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

John 10:38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works’ sake.

John 17: 11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.    21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

John 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him 35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

John 1:32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him. 33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost. 34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.

The WORD,

Isaiah 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: 2 And the Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;

Isaiah 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; 7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house. 8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another,

Luke 4:17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Isaiah. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written, 18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

John 1: 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.…17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Mike, Jesus is called God’s only begotten Son because YHVH our heavenly Father came to dwell in him without measure, he was one of a kind, the only mortal man to have been called to righteousness for to be a light and fulfill all of YHVH’s will. YHVH gave that glory to no other, only to the son of Jesse, Jesus of Nazareth. The anointed Jesus of the Spirit was sent out and the people beheld his glory as one filled with the Spirit, filled with grace and truth, council and might. The Son of Man came down from heaven, he came directly from God according to YHVH’s promised Word, his Word given by the prophet Isaiah became true in the flesh of Jesus of Nazareth.

 

[mikeboll64]

Jodi:  Hi Mike,

You are trying to claim something ridiculous I never said or meant. 

Jesus says that he speaks according to what the Father has taught him.

You said it, you agree, that Jesus spoke about things that God taught him.

Yes, Jesus was a latter day prophet of God, and spoke God’s message to the people.

Jodi: YHVH, who called Abraham a prophet, taught Jesus that the prophet Abraham had rejoiced to see his day, so then Jesus can rightly tell others, “Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad”…

The “I am” was directly related to him being the man who would bring forth YHVH’s day.

I’m going to try to lay out the discussion in light of your claims…

Jesus:  Abraham rejoiced to see my day.

Jews:  How could you know that, seeing that you aren’t even 50?

Jesus:  Before Abraham came into existence, I existed!  (But by those words, Jesus really meant:  You are right that I’m less than 50 and that I have never seen Abraham.  God showed me through a vision that Abraham rejoiced to see YHVH’s day – which for some reason I call “MY” day.  But before Abraham ever existed, God prophesied to the non-existent Abraham about a future ruler – a prophesy that isn’t recorded in scripture – and I am the one that God prophesied about.)

Jodi, would you please do that with your own words to make things perfectly clear?

For example, with the words, “Before Abraham came into existence, I am” REALLY MEANS:  ____________  (You fill this part out in your own words)

Thanks.

Jodi:  FACTS,  Jesus had been declaring who he was to them throughout John 8 but they kept on not understanding what he meant by what he said… he was the man who had been anointed with the Spirit without measure, the Son of God who would die on the cross and be resurrected and have a second coming… These Jews continuously denied Jesus was the promised Christ, and for any Jew who declared that he was they would kick them out of the synagogue for it, so people were afraid themselves to confess.

He was declaring himself to be the very man the prophets had declared would come…

I’ve used ellipses to eliminate the unscriptural parts of your long explanation.  I agree with what’s left above… and merely point out that it is irrelevant to our discussion.  Yes, Jesus was the prophesied coming Messiah.  Okay.  What light does that shed on whether or not he preexisted?

Jodi:  …that coming was declared even before Abraham was…

Show me that in scripture.  Show me the declaration that is recorded in the Bible as having occurred before Abraham existed about this coming ruler.  Either do that, or stop making this claim.  Thanks.

Okay Jodi, here’s a direct test…

Jesus:  Abraham rejoiced to see my day.

Jews:  You’re not even 50, and you’ve seen Abraham?

Based on the Jews’ response to Jesus’ claim, is it clear that the Jews thought Jesus was implying that he was old enough to have known Abraham personally?  Yes or No, please?

 

 

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