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Mike: Would you agree that the most straightforward reading of Micah 5:2 tells of a future ruler who has already been around for a long time?
Jodi: Actually no, reading it straight forward I see,
from you (Judah) shall “come forth” a ruler in Israel, which would be a prophecy, then reading, “whose coming forth” is from of old, from ancient days, tells me that the “coming forth” was not a new prophecy, it was God’s word even from ancient of days.
If I understand that statement, you are saying that the RULER whose origin was from ancient days was a prophecy that God prophesied in ancient days. Is that correct? A word that God spoke in ancient days will be a forthcoming RULER out of Bethlehem?
And how does that align with this other thing you said…
Jodi: Micah 5 verses 3 and 4 should tell you without a doubt that the origin spoken of in verse 2, of the man who would be ruler of Israel, represents Abraham. Jesus of the tribe of Judah as ruler over all nations, ORIGINATED from God’s covenant with Abraham concerning his seed.
So now it seems as if you accept that “origin” applies to the RULER – and not to a word that God spoke in ancient days. And since the word “origin” in Micah 5:2 unquestionably applies to the RULER, and not to a word God spoke in the past, then this is the statement from you that I will address.
Jodi, I hear and fully understand your assertion that the “origin” in question refers to Jesus “originating” in Abraham – which would be “from ancient days” from Micah’s point of view.
First, let me say that you then DO agree with my statement that the most straightforward reading of Micah 5:2 tells of a future ruler that has already been around for a long time – contrary to your first statement above. And in that case, we’ve narrowed our disagreement down to what it MEANS for this ruler to have had his “origin” in the distant past.
You say that this ruler’s “origin” is when God pre-ordained for Jesus to eventually come from Abraham’s seed. And that is a perfect segue into…
John 8:57-58… Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and You have seen Abraham?” “Truly, truly, I tell you,” Jesus declared, “before Abraham was born, I have existed!”
Jodi, we agree that the future ruler had his origin in the distant past. You believe his origin was a promise God made to Abraham. But Jesus clearly stated that he existed BEFORE Abraham did.
Thoughts?
Hi Mike,
You are asking that I don’t apply what I know to a passage, take away/hide the truth and understanding I have and then read a passage as if I am blind, that’s ridiculous, that’s a game I don’t want to play with you Mike.
Micah 5:2 But you, O Bethlehem Ephrathah, who are too little to be among the clans of Judah, from you shall come forth for me one who is to be ruler in Israel, whose coming forth is of old, from ancient days. 3 Therefore will he give them up, until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel. 4 And he shall stand and feed in the strength of the LORD, in the majesty of the name of the LORD his God; and they shall abide: for now shall he be great unto the ends of the earth.
I know God’s covenant with Abraham, that all nations would be blessed through Abraham’s seed with that seed being a ruler, where that seed is also of the seed of Judah through David, and he is a ruler who executes righteous judgement and brings rest upon the earth, even unto the Gentiles, ALL through God’s Spirit that lives in him.
This coming ruler, which is the focus of the context, a coming RULER, is made from Abraham’s genes and it was God who directly made a covenant with Abraham in those ancient days that one of his seed would be a great RULER unto the ends of the earth, overall Israel and all the Gentile nations. The RULER to come originated from an ancient covenant which is exactly why Micah goes on in verse 3 and 4 speaking to that ancient covenant to which this ruler comes forth FROM.
Jodi: Hi Mike,
You are asking that I don’t apply what I know to a passage, take away/hide the truth and understanding I have and then read a passage as if I am blind, that’s ridiculous, that’s a game I don’t want to play with you Mike.
What? When have I asked you to do any of that?
You argue your points in any manner you see fit, Jodi. I don’t have any power over you to force you to “not apply” or “take away/hide” any truths that you think shed light on our discussion.
That being said, I have noticed for years that you argue using THOUSANDS of words from many different scriptures – the vast majority of which have nothing to do with the point you’re trying to make. That’s fine by me. You present your case the way YOU want to. I will just keep clipping out the RELEVANT parts of those many scriptural words (usually the ones you highlight with colors and bold font) and addressing them. For example, I see absolutely NOTHING in Micah 5:3-4 that changes anything or adds any pertinent additional info to Micah 5:2 that we are discussing. Nor have you specifically highlighted any particular words from those latter verses as support for your argument. But if you want to keep posting those other two verses (or Micah 5 in it’s entirety), go for it. I will just keep dealing with the pertinent parts of the scriptures and the arguments you make in your own words. 👍🙂
Jodi: I know God’s covenant with Abraham, that all nations would be blessed through Abraham’s seed with that seed being a ruler…
Where can I read about God telling Abraham that He will bring forth from his seed a RULER? Not important, since we can agree that the seed of David would also be the seed of Jesse, and the seed of Abraham, and the seed of Noah, and the seed of Adam and Eve – who would crush the serpent’s head, right?
And we both agree already that Jesus, according to the flesh, was indeed a seed of all of them, right?
I’m not arguing that Jesus DIDN’T come from Adam, Eve, Noah, Abraham, Jesse, and David. I’m arguing that by “origins”, Micah does not mean the promise from God of his future coming, but instead his LITERAL origins.
Jodi: This coming ruler, which is the focus of the context, a coming RULER, is made from Abraham’s genes and it was God who directly made a covenant with Abraham in those ancient days that one of his seed would be a great RULER unto the ends of the earth, overall Israel and all the Gentile nations.
Okay, now I’m going to have to see that scripture after all. Show where God told Abraham that He would raise up a GREAT RULER from Abraham’s seed. Thanks.
Jodi: The RULER to come originated from an ancient covenant which is exactly why Micah goes on in verse 3 and 4 speaking to that ancient covenant to which this ruler comes forth FROM.
See Jodi, this very last part above is the only part of everything you posted that is pertinent to the discussion. It’s not very hard, and doesn’t require a novel’s worth of scriptures.
You believe that the future ruler ORIGINATED with an ancient covenant.
I believe the future ruler ORIGINATED as a literal living and breathing entity, long before Micah spoke of him.
This question is all there is to our disagreement, Jodi…
Do the words “his origins are from ancient days” refer to when God spoke some words to Abraham, or to when this future ruler literally began to exist as a living entity?
And since that is our ONLY disagreement in this matter, it is irrelevant how many verses you post about God’s promise to Abraham concerning his seed… because I don’t think it’s logical to consider the ORIGIN of a person to be the moment God spoke about him. If it is, then the moment God uttered those words to Satan about the seed of Eve would be the future ruler’s “origin” – and it would have nothing to do with Abraham anyway.
Likewise, if it is, then we could equally say that the ORIGIN of Israel’s captivity in Egypt was hundreds of years BEFORE they were ever captives in Egypt, right?
I find that illogical, Jodi. Has any Biblical scholar ever claimed that the day God said the words of Gen 15:13 to Abraham (“your descendants will be strangers in a land… enslaved and oppressed four hundred years”) was the day that Israel began their captivity in Egypt? Of course not, because the ORIGIN of an event is NOT the time it is mentioned in prophecy. The ORIGIN of an event is when it actually begins to occur.
So, I make an argument against your understanding using simple logic. And I also make an argument against your understanding using the words of Jesus…
John 8:57-58… Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and You have seen Abraham?” “Truly, truly, I tell you,” Jesus declared, “before Abraham was born, I have existed!”
The only question now is whether or not you can offer any valid rebuttal to those arguments I’ve made.
Hi Mike,
No Jesus is not declaring at all that he existed before Abraham in John 8, and such a stance is to ignore all that Jesus said leading up to that verse and not apply a very important fact that God made very clear in a passage that He wants us to know and APPLY to all other scripture under the sun.
I did speak to this in a recent post to you as I knew you would be bringing it up, so I will now let it be a sole focus of this post.
First be MINDFUL of these passage,
Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: 11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it. 12 Hearken unto me, ye stouthearted*, that are far from righteousness: 13 I bring near my righteousness; it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory.
Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away..
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Romans 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: 23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:..
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
Acts 13:22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will. 23 Of this man’s seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus: 24 When John had first preached before his coming the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel.
JOHN 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I AM the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life…
…28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I AM he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I AM the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
John 8:53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?
John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
Mike, here is a God given clear fact, before Abraham even existed, long before he ever was, from the beginning the man Jesus of Nazareth was declared to execute God’s purpose, the purpose for why God created all things in the first place, he was declared to be the resurrection and the life, he was declared to receive God’s Spirit being called to righteousness for to be the light of the world, he was declared to be the Son of Man that would shed his blood to bring forth salvation and become the firstborn into a new heaven and earth, being raised to receive the promised Holy Spirit where by that Spirit he would be a righteous judge and a king of kings and a lord of lords sitting on his father David’s throne. He was declared to be a son of David to whom God would be a Father to and not take His mercy away from, and God would give him an eternal throne. Nothing would have been made that was made without this man, all things were made by reason of him and for him.
Abraham saw this, that which God had declared before he even existed, he saw it and rejoiced, he saw Jesus’s day. Abraham, was to whom Jesus was speaking to, their great father, but before Abraham even was, Jesus was marked out greater than all. Jesus was the Son of Man born of God’s Spirit then sent to preach God’s word which concerned himself, which concerned who he was (that they were blind to, not understanding or believing). He was the man declared from the beginning that would be sent to execute the End that God had declared from the beginning. He was the man sent down from heaven, as he came being sent directly from God above, where he spoke God’s word not his own, not earthly things as he was not of the world but was of heaven being of God.
John 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM.
To the people Jesus spoke to they didn’t understand who he was declaring himself to be at all, they were blind, they had no clue. Abraham said he saw Jesus’s day, not that Jesus existed long ago and saw Abraham.
Jesus didn’t say before Abraham was I was, he said before Abraham was I AM, and everything related to I AM is according to God’s word before Abraham was.
I AM the LIGHT of the WORLD, I AM the RESURRECTION and the LIFE, and he could have rightfully said according to God’s word in Acts, I AM he of God’s determined purpose and foreknowledge from the beginning, before Abraham was, who would be lifted up and slain to bring forth salvation.
Jodi: Mike, here is a God given clear fact, before Abraham even existed, long before he ever was, from the beginning the man Jesus of Nazareth was declared to execute God’s purpose…
Agreed. Of course you realize that this refutes your own argument that the origin of the future ruler in Micah 5:2 was Abraham (or God’s prophecy to Abraham), right? Your words above place this metaphorical origin at “from the beginning”, right?
But that still leaves the question of whether it was a metaphorical origin (when God first planned this future ruler) or a literal origin (the moment this future ruler began to exist as a living entity).
Jodi: Jesus didn’t say before Abraham was I was, he said before Abraham was I AM…
That is a terribly weak argument for many reasons, Jodi.
1. The context dictates that Jesus was speaking literally. Jesus mentioned Abraham rejoicing to see his day. The Jews said, “You aren’t even 50, yet you’ve seen Abraham?” And Jesus responded in the AFFIRMATIVE by saying that he existed before Abraham did.
Your interpretation has the Jews being correct in that Jesus HADN’T seen Abraham, and Jesus being a liar by leading them to believe that he had. In your scenario, Jesus was really telling them that God’s plan for him had existed long before Abraham, but he for some reason explained that to them using words that would perfectly match what a person who had literally existed before Abraham would say. Don’t you find it the least bit bizarre that instead of being straight with them, Jesus would explain it in such a bewildering manner that it sounded exactly as if Jesus was literally claiming to have existed before Abraham did?
2. You are trying to take advantage of the difference between the Greek and English languages, just like the Trinitarians do when they try to make 8:58 into a declaration from Jesus that he is Yahweh. But just like there is no declaration of Jesus being Yahweh in the most common pronoun/verb conjunction in the world, there is also no declaration in the words “I am” of some future event that was pre-planned by God.
In reality, the Greek present tense usually corresponds to the English present tense, but in certain instances it corresponds better with the English past tense. These are not uncommon, and there’s even a name for it: historical presents. Here is a perfect example of one…
John 14:9… Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time?”
The bolded part above is also the present tense “I am” in the Greek – just like 8:58. But surely you know that Jesus was talking about HAVING BEEN with Philip for a long time, right? He wasn’t saying, “even after I am Yahweh among you for a long time”, like the Trinitarians would like to believe.
Nor was he saying, “even after I am he of God’s determined purpose and foreknowledge from the beginning among you for a long time”, like you are attempting to say.
3. The unbiased and most logical understanding of 8:58 aligns with and is supported by the unbiased and most logical understanding of Micah 5:2 – and dozens of other scriptures that we will get to in due time.
Jodi, let me ask you one simple question – to which I ask only your most completely honest answer…
If you knew absolutely nothing about the Bible, and read 8:56-58 with no preconceived notions, would you understand it as…
1. Jesus saying he had existed before Abraham existed?
2. Jesus saying that there was a plan from God concerning him that had existed before Abraham existed?
Hi Mike,
No, it doesn’t refute my argument as you have misunderstood my position.
The seed of Abraham would be the Christ and Christ is a savior and a ruler overall the nations where by this seed of Abraham they are blessed.
Acts 3:25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
Galatians 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
I have said there are two things at work here,
First, Abraham is of the days of old, he is A VERY important historic figure where from his SEED would come our Messiah, Jesus’s ORIGIN is marked out as him being the seed of Abraham.
Matthew 1:1
This is a record of the ancestors of Jesus the Messiah, a descendant of David and of Abraham
The record of the genealogy of Jesus the Messiah, the son of David, the son of Abraham
The family tree of Jesus Christ, David’s son, Abraham’s son:
This is the family history of Jesus Christ. He came from the family of David, and David came from the family of Abraham.
This is a record of the family line of Jesus Christ. He is the son of David. He is also the son of Abraham.
The family history, the family line, the family tree, the genealogy, the ancestors are all translated from the word GENESIS/ORIGIN, where that which is given by Matthew, that Origin of Jesus, BEGINS with Abraham, the VERY important historical figure according to God.
Second, We also know that God’s word given to Abraham concerned his seed being our Christ, being our ruler and savior. Yes, that word was declared even before the world was.
The truth is, not only is Jesu’s origin begin with Abraham, to which Matthew directly teaches, but that seed was promised to be our Christ, our lord/master which IS a RULER.
I’m not the only one who believes Micah is talking about Jesus’s ancestor,
Micah 5:2 (GNT) The Lord says, “Bethlehem Ephrathah, you are one of the smallest towns in Judah, but out of you I will bring a ruler for Israel, whose family line goes back to ancient times.”
Micah 5:2 (MSG) But you, Bethlehem, David’s country, the runt of the litter – From you will come the leader who will shepherd-rule Israel. He’ll be no upstart, no pretender. His family tree is ancient and distinguished.
I’m not the only one who recognizes this was purposed from time past,
Micah 5:2 (BBE) And you, Beth-lehem Ephrathah, the least among the families of Judah, out of you one will come to me who is to be ruler in Israel; whose going out has been purposed from time past, from the eternal days.
This one is interesting, looks like there is a third thing,
Micah 5:2 (NIRV) The LORD says, “Bethlehem, you might not be an important town in the nation of Judah. But out of you will come a ruler over Israel for me. His family line goes back to the early years of your nation. It goes all the way back to days of long ago.” Bethlehem was also called Ephrathah.
Matthew 2:4-6 quotes the prophecy from Micah 5:2 showing that the passage was speaking to the place where Jesus would be born.
4. And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he inquired of them WHERE the Christ was TO BE BORN. So they said to him, “In Bethlehem of Judea, for thus it is written by the prophet: ‘But you, Bethlehem, in the land of Judah, are not the least among the rulers of Judah; for out of you shall come a Ruler who will shepherd My people Israel.’”
The last part is left out, “whose goings forth are from of old, from ancient days.” But still, Micah 5:2 is being spoken about in Matthew as a reference to the place Jesus was born.
Mowtsa’ah, origin, place of going out from
We definitely know that Bethlehem Ephrathah is of ancient times,
IN Genesis 35, Bethlehem Ephrathah is the place that the last son of Jacob was born, where Rachel died giving birth to Benjamin. Jacob set a pillar to mark her grave where it’s spoken in Genesis 35 that the pillar is still there to this day. Bethlehem is also the city of David, the place where David was anointed king of Israel by God.
The promised ruler was BORN in Bethlehem. The place that Jesus CAME OUT FROM, WHERE he was BORN, is from of old, from ancient days, going back to the birth place of Benjamin, going back to the place David was anointed king of Israel.
From biblehub, a. Micah 5:1 מוֺצָאוֺתָיו (compare future ruler out of Bethlehem), his origin.
Mike this is what I know,
We are given in Matthew the GENESIS/ORIGIN of Jesus and it’s Abraham. Abraham’s seed was promised to be our Christ, our lord/master/ruler and savior. God didn’t make the promise to Noah, or Shem, or Eber or Terah, it was promised beginning with Abraham concerning his seed and then was promised to David concerning his seed. One from Judah, a seed of David and going back even farther to ancient times, a seed of Abraham, the very man to whom the promise originated through, as it’s through his seed. Then we also know the place where Jesus came out from, he was born in the city from ancient of days, Bethlehem.
Hi Mike,
What is illogical, is to be told that we are being given the BOOK of Jesus’s ORIGIN, where then THAT BOOK given goes from Abraham TO JOSEPH, where that BOOK is said to be Jesus’s GENETIC LINE showing that he is a bio son of Abraham and a bio son of David, and then turn and say that Joseph is Jesus’s ADOPTED father.
That’s just not illogical, it’s a lie against what is clearly given by Matthew.
You said, “Where can I read about God telling Abraham that He will bring forth from his seed a RULER?
We are told by Paul unto the church of Galatia, that through Abraham’s seed the promised Messiah/anointed one/Christos would come.
Christ is our lord, meaning our master meaning our ruler. I really have to point out this basic truth to you? What does Christ represent to you, not one who is to be a ruler over all the new earth?
Listen to Jesus’s own words concerning himself repeating what the prophet Isaiah said and then add to that further prophecy of Isaiah concerning our Christ and then compare that to what what Micah says in chapter 5 verses 3 and 4, keeping in mind that Christ’s origin is of Abraham, of his seed our Christ would come. Can you do that? Can you not apply multiple scriptures?
That’s how understanding is established!
Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
What else does this anointed seed of Abraham do with God’s anointing Spirit upon him according to God’s promise,
Isaiah 11: 1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:2 And the Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; 3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: 4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins…10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious. 12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
Micah 5:3 Therefore will he give them up, until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel. 4 And he shall stand and feed in the strength of the LORD, in the majesty of the name of the LORD his God; and they shall abide: for now shall he be great unto the ends of the earth. 5 And this man shall be the peace, when the Assyrian shall come into our land: and when he shall tread in our palaces, then shall we raise against him seven shepherds, and eight principal men.
He’s not just the stem of Jesse, Jesus Christ’s origin is from ancient of days, he’s from the seed of Abraham, for through Abraham’s seed would our Christ come, our anointed of the Spirit who would be our judge, who would be our lord/master/ruler, bringing forth blessings, bringing forth rest upon all nations on the earth.
Hi Mike,
John 8:53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself? 54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God: 55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.Jesus response in verse 58, is STILL in the context of their prior question, is he greater than Abraham. He just told them in response to that question that Abraham rejoiced to see HIS DAY and they didn’t understand that, they said something completely stupid because they are entirely blind, Jesus didn’t say he saw Abraham he said that Abraham saw his day. He responds to their entirely stupid question remaining still in the context of if he is greater than Abraham and how is he exactly greater than Abraham.
Jesus said the scribes and Pharisees were blind guides. In John 8 he specifically said that they did not understand his speech, because they could not hear his words, they were deaf. He said his words have no place in them. He said there was no truth in them, but yet he kept talking to them, knowing full well they would not understand him. Others that were there it is said that they did believe in his words.
In John 8 Jesus says “I AM the Light”, he is teaching that he is the promised Son of Man to whom God rests his Spirit upon, he who was called into righteousness by God where God would hold his hand and keep him to be for a LIGHT, where he would deliver captives through that anointing Spirit setting man free, which Jesus also talks about in John 8. Him declaring himself to be the Light was the glory that YHVH had promised He would give to no other, which in fact makes him greater than Abraham. He likewise speaks to his death and how they will see who he is, which is one who will be raised from the dead and will divide the spoil with the strong, something where these scribes and Pharisees won’t receive a portion, which Jesus also speaks to in John 8.
In John 8 Jesus is explaining WHO HE IS, I AM the LIGHT, he also speaks of prophecy concerning himself not yet fulfilled of his death and resurrection and how he gives freedom, where Jesus directly declares in a later chapter in John, I AM the RESURRECTION. He speaks to how Abraham saw prophecy of this and was glad, rejoicing. Jesus doesn’t say before Abraham was I WAS, that is not a weak argument at all considering in John 8 Jesus is declaring WHO HE IS, he is not making the point that he is greater than Abraham because he existed before Abraham.
Think about it Mike, is Jesus greater than Abraham because he existed before him, that’s really his point? After all that Jesus declared about himself, I AM the LIGHT etc.., which was of prophecy, Jesus’s final point in answering how he was greater than Abraham, had nothing to do with the prophecy of him that Abraham rejoiced over, he was declaring he was greater for having existed before him. Really? NO!
Jesus could do nothing of himself, it was all God’s Spirit that came to live in him without measure, this is what made him the LIGHT and we are told that it was by the Eternal Spirit that came to dwell in him he offered himself up to death for us. He was then raised with his flesh not seeing decay being given life again where he received the promised Holy Spirit, where through that Spirit he is able to judge us righteously, where through that Spirit he will destroy the wicked and brings peace to all nations. He is a ruler overall, even over his father David and his father Abraham, he is greater than all, where it has absolutely nothing to do with him existing before Abraham.
This is why Jesus’s name means YHVH is salvation, because it’s what YHVH accomplished through His Spirit in the man Jesus. Jesus is not great because he existed before Abraham, Jesus of Nazareth is great BECAUSE God’s Spirit LIVES IN HIM, he is begotten of God’s Spirit, whereby that Spirit he is appointed by God a king of kings and a lord of lords overall people, making him greater than Abraham. This was declared by God before Abraham was, before Abraham even existed.
Jodi: Jesus response in verse 58, is STILL in the context of their prior question, is he greater than Abraham…. He responds to their entirely stupid question remaining still in the context of if he is greater than Abraham and how is he exactly greater than Abraham.
In which part of Jesus’ response, exactly, is Jesus saying he is greater than Abraham? Which exact words?
Jodi: In John 8 Jesus says “I AM the Light”… I AM the RESURRECTION…
Why do you keep capitalizing the “AM” in these statements? The phrase “I am” is the most common pronoun/verb combination in any language – by far. Yes, Jesus said, “I am the light of the world.” Okay. And yes, he said, “I am the resurrection.” He also said, “I am sending you out like sheep among wolves.” There is nothing significant in the phrase “I am”, Jodi, and therefore no reason to cap the “AM” as if it has some hidden meaning.
Besides, the proper translation of 8:58 is “I have been/I existed”.
Jodi: Jesus doesn’t say before Abraham was I WAS, that is not a weak argument at all considering in John 8 Jesus is declaring WHO HE IS, he is not making the point that he is greater than Abraham because he existed before Abraham.
Translated properly, he certain does say “I was/I existed/I have been”. But tell me exactly HOW Jesus declared who he is with the simple words, “I am”. For example, if Jesus walked up to a beggar on the corner and said, “I am”… what was he declaring to the beggar with those two words? And more importantly, how exactly was the beggar (or the Jews/disciples in 8:58) supposed to catch and understand this mystical meaning of the most common pronoun/verb combination in the world?
Jodi: Think about it Mike, is Jesus greater than Abraham because he existed before him, that’s really his point?
You are the one claiming to see a “Jesus is greater than Abraham” declaration in Jesus’ words… not me. But yes, Jesus was clearly telling the Jews that “before Abraham existed, I existed”.
Jodi: After all that Jesus declared about himself, I AM the LIGHT etc.., which was of prophecy, Jesus’s final point in answering how he was greater than Abraham, had nothing to do with the prophecy of him that Abraham rejoiced over…
Yes, it was indeed prophesied that the coming Messiah would be a light to the Gentiles, and for the world in general. And Jesus clearly said, “I am (small “am”, not capped “AM”) the light of the world.” Of course this doesn’t have anything to do with his discussion with the Jews in 8:56-58. And I am unaware of any prophecy Abraham received that spoke of a single person from his seed eventually arising to be a “light” or a “ruler”. I have asked for that scripture, and you have yet to provide it. So I’m not really sure which prophecy specifically about Jesus that Abraham supposedly rejoiced over.
Jodi: …he was declaring he was greater for having existed before him. Really? NO!
I don’t see anything in 8:56-58 where Jesus mentions being either greater or lesser than Abraham, and have therefore asked you to point those specific words out for me. As for the latter part, yes, Jesus was clearly saying he existed before Abraham existed.
Jodi, I told you that you are free to argue your case any way you want to – using as many scripture-filled novels as you want. But not at the expense of completely ignoring my direct questions/points. Please directly answer these points that I made previously…
1. Do you understand what I showed you about the Greek “historical present”, and that it is used commonly throughout the NT for rendering Greek present tenses as English past tenses so that they make sense to us, because the two languages do not have identical rules of grammar? Yes or No, please?
2. Do you acknowledge that IF we translated the last part of 8:58 as a historical present, the EXACT phrase would be, “before Abraham existed, I existed”? Yes or No, please?
3. Has any Biblical scholar ever claimed that the day God said the words of Gen 15:13 to Abraham (“your descendants will be strangers in a land… enslaved and oppressed four hundred years”) was the day that Israel began their captivity in Egypt? Yes or No, please?
4. And is that because the “origin” of an event is not normally counted as the time the event was planned for the future, but the time the event actually began to occur? Yes or No, please?
Hi Mike,
There is a lot to clear up! I want to start with this,
YOU: 4. And is that because the “origin” of an event is not normally counted as the time the event was planned for the future, but the time the event actually began to occur? Yes or No, please?
ME:
My primary stance that I have given concerning Micah 5:2, is the truth that we read in Matthew 1:1, the record of Jesus’s origin/ancestry begins with Abraham.
Merriam-Webster Definition of origin
1: ANCESTRY, PARENTAGESynonyms for origin, ancestry, birth, blood, bloodline, breeding, descent, extraction, family tree, genealogy, line, lineage, parentage, pedigree, stock, strain
Matthew 1:1 A record of the ancestors of Jesus Christ, son of David, son of Abraham:2 Abraham was the father of Isaac, Isaac the father of Jacob, Jacob the father of Judah….
Micah 5:2 The Lord says, “Bethlehem Ephrathah, you are one of the smallest towns in Judah, but out of you I will bring a ruler for Israel, whose family line goes back to ancient times.”
Micah 5:2 (CEBA) As for you, Bethlehem of Ephrathah, though you are the least significant of Judah’s forces, one who is to be a ruler in Israel on my behalf will come out from you. His origin is from remote times, from ancient days.
Matthew even makes the point of how many generations there are from Abraham to Christ, where we see how far back his ancestry/origin goes, clearly with this number of generations representing Jesus’s genealogy, his ancestry/origin is from ancient days.
Matthew 1:17 So all the generations (genea) from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.
Genea, Fathered, men of the same stock, a family
Mike, unless I have missed it, you have not directly addressed the direct text of Matthew 1, please explain how you can reach the conclusion that Matthew is not actually giving us Jesus’s genetic origin, even though he clearly states that is exactly what he is doing.
Hi Mike,
YOU: And I am unaware of any prophecy Abraham received that spoke of a single person from his seed eventually arising to be a “light” or a “ruler”. I have asked for that scripture, and you have yet to provide it. So I’m not really sure which prophecy specifically about Jesus that Abraham supposedly rejoiced over.
ME: I have looked into God’s word and did realize something this morning that is very awesome and it has everything to do with this conversation. I will provide it in my next post and it pertains to what Abraham did in fact rejoice over.
Regarding your position that I need to provide a prophecy that says Abraham’s seed would be a light and a ruler, I find that ridiculous. We are given knowledge in the NT to what existed long ago IN God’s promise to Abraham concerning his seed. Are you saying that we cannot apply truth given by God in the NT to passages in the OT? We are given further understanding in the NT of what was held long ago in God’s promise to Abraham concerning his seed, but that truth must not be applied to any passage in the OT? I think absolutely not.
Abraham’s seed would be the Christ, that is God’s promise to Abraham long ago, and what is Christ but not our light and our leader who rules over us as a king of kings and a master of masters?
Galatians 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith….16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
We are to read Micah 5:2 and NOT acknowledge that the coming ruler is in fact a ruler through being the promised Christ? We should just forget that we are given that Jesus Christ’s origin /ancestry is of many generations back, all the way back to Abraham, the very man to whom God had promised that from his seed our Christ would come?
Mike, there is not an OT prophecy that directly states Abraham’s seed would be a light or a ruler. What we are given is God’s word made known to us, that He had promised that of one seed of Abraham our Christ would come. Christ is most definitely declared to be our light and our ruler also in God’s word.
Jodi: Hi Mike,
There is a lot to clear up! I want to start with this,
YOU: 4. And is that because the “origin” of an event is not normally counted as the time the event was planned for the future, but the time the event actually began to occur? Yes or No, please?
ME:
My primary stance that I have given concerning Micah 5:2, is the truth that we read in Matthew 1:1, the record of Jesus’s origin/ancestry begins with Abraham.
Hi Jodi. There is indeed a lot to clear up, but we’re not going to do that by just repeating the same things we’ve already discussed at great length.
First of all, you didn’t provide an actual ANSWER to my question that you quoted above. And it was only one of four questions that you didn’t directly answer.
Secondly, we both already know and understand your stance on Micah 5:2. You believe that the “origin” spoken of by Micah refers to Jesus coming from Abraham’s bloodline. I understand what you’re saying, Jodi. Repeating it over and over won’t make me understand it any better, nor will it change my mind on it.
See if you can refute my logic here…
If Abraham can be considered the “origin” of Jesus, then Abraham can also be considered the “origin” of every single one of his descendants, right? So we could equally say that Mary, whose origins were from ancient times, married Joseph, whose origins were from ancient times, and they begat a daughter name Simeon, whose origins were from ancient times. And we end up with EVERYONE in the entire world having “origins from ancient times” – which negates the very meaning and importance of Micah’s statement concerning the coming ruler. Do you understand that, Jodi? If EVERYONE IN THE ENTIRE WORLD can be said to have “origins from ancient times” just because their ancestry includes people who lived in the distant past, then Micah saying that about Jesus would have ZERO meaning and ZERO importance. I mean, who cares that this particular future ruler had ancestors who lived a very long time ago when EVERYBODY IN THE WORLD also has ancestors who lived a very long time ago?
Jodi, please DIRECTLY respond to the above so that it’s clear that you understand WHAT I’m saying. There is no prophecy about Abraham or genealogy from Matthew you can post that will DIRECTLY ADDRESS the logical argument I’ve made above, and so I’m begging you to speak in your own words and show me that you clearly UNDERSTAND what it is I’m saying, and refute it if you can.
If you were pregnant right now, could I say, “There is a child conceived in you, whose origins are in the distant past, from ancient times” ?
Well, if you take “origins” metaphorically as referring to the child originally coming from your parents, your grandparents, and so on all the way back to Adam and Eve, then yes I could rightfully say that. But then it would also apply to EVERY SINGLE PERSON ON EARTH right now – and to everyone who has EVER lived on earth.
On the other hand, if we understand “origins” to be LITERAL and not metaphorically referring to the fact that your child has ancestors like everyone does, then I’d be saying something very special, unique, and important about your child that I couldn’t say about anyone else’s child.
So… was Micah saying something about the future ruler that could equally be said about everyone alive at that time and everyone who had ever lived? If so, why even say it?
But the fact that Micah DID say something about the future ruler that has NEVER been said about anyone else in the history of the world clearly suggests that the “origin” he spoke about was a LITERAL origin – as in this future ruler had already been in existence for a very long time.
Jodi: Mike, unless I have missed it, you have not directly addressed the direct text of Matthew 1, please explain how you can reach the conclusion that Matthew is not actually giving us Jesus’s genetic origin, even though he clearly states that is exactly what he is doing.
I can’t imagine that you’ve missed it, since I’ve addressed it multiple times in multiple ways. I’ve pointed out that the angel clearly told Joseph that the child in Mary was conceived (“gennaó”, the same word used throughout Matthew’s genealogy) by the Holy Spirit. You believe that means God placed Joseph’s DNA into Mary. I don’t believe that.
I also pointed out that God can make sons of Abraham from stones. Would that require God to raise Abraham and Sarah from the dead and somehow place their DNA into the stones?
I also pointed out that Joseph adopting Jesus as his own child makes Jesus legally of the house of David. Moses was legally a prince of Egypt, although he was adopted into the ruling family line. Mordecai adopted Esther and she was officially his daughter. Naomi adopted Ruth. And we are all hoping to be adopted by God, making us His literal children (Eph 1:5).
But most importantly, I pointed out that this particular disagreement has nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not Jesus preexisted BEFORE he was conceived in Mary by the Holy Spirit – whether or not God placed Joseph’s DNA into Mary. So our disagreement on this matter has nothing to do with the reason for this thread, Jodi. There is no reason to ever bring up Matthew’s genealogy or God’s promise to Abraham ever again here – because neither of them shed any light on whether or not Jesus preexisted BEFORE he lived on earth as a descendent of Abraham from the house of David.
Hi Mike ,
YOU: So I’m not really sure which prophecy specifically about Jesus that Abraham supposedly rejoiced over.
ME:
John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
Abraham was called a prophet by God in Genesis 20, surely the day that he rejoiced over is the very day we read about in a great number of passages, which I have provided a few below.
Zeph 3:14 Sing, O daughter of Zion; shout, O Israel; be glad and rejoice with all the heart, O daughter of Jerusalem. 15 The LORD hath taken away thy judgments, he hath cast out thine enemy: the king of Israel, even the LORD, is in the midst of thee: thou shalt not see evil any more. 16 In that day it shall be said to Jerusalem, Fear thou not: and to Zion, Let not thine hands be slack.
Malachi 4:1-2 “For behold, the day is coming, burning like a furnace; and all the arrogant and every evildoer will be chaff; and the day that is coming will set them ablaze,” says the Lord of hosts, “so that it will leave them neither root nor branch.” “But for you who fear My name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings; and you will go forth and skip about like calves from the stall.
Romans 2: 5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
Isaiah 11:4 and 2 Thes 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
Acts 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. 22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. 23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people. 24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days. 25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
John 6:40For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”
John 12: 48:He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.
Let’s take this back to John 8,
John 8:25 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.
John 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
John 8:45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
John 8:53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself? 54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God: 55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
His day is the day that he destroys the very men who he is speaking to, the unbelievers who reject the words of God that he speaks concerning himself and who he is. His day is also the day that Abraham receives his glory, which he receives because he was counted as righteous for his belief in God and God’s word, he believed in Jesus’s day, to which we are told was spoken to the prophets since the world began, before Abraham even existed.
When I focused this morning on Jesus’s Day and looked at the scriptures, it all fell together so clearly. It makes me laugh, it’s just too great on Jesus’s end. When he told these blind guides, as Jesus calls them, that Abraham rejoiced to see his day, what he was essentially telling them was that he is the man who will destroy them for their unbelief, which they just had absolutely no no clue.
I will address, “before Abraham was, I am” in my next post.
Jodi: I will address, “before Abraham was, I am” in my next post.
Great. I read all your scriptures, and didn’t see any of them that refer to Abraham rejoicing to see Jesus’ day. Just like you finally acknowledged that there are no prophesies to Abraham about a future ruler, you’ll have to honestly acknowledge that there are no scriptures that say Abraham rejoiced to see Jesus’ day.
But both of those are just side issues anyway. The “before Abraham existed, I existed” is the part we want to talk about – along with it’s connection to Micah 5:2 and a bunch of other preexistent scriptures we haven’t yet gotten to.
Jodi, please begin your address with a direct and honest answer to this question that I asked before…
2. Do you acknowledge that IF we translated the last part of 8:58 as a historical present, the EXACT phrase would be, “before Abraham existed, I existed”? Yes or No, please?
It will go a long way towards an honest discussion on these matters if you could first acknowledge this undeniable fact, and THEN give your explanation to why you think it’s NOT an historical present, and what exactly “before Abraham existed, I am“ would even mean, since it makes no sense in English, and since there is no conceivable way to twist the words “I am” into meaning “I am Yahweh” or “I am the one the scriptures spoke about”.
Thanks.
Hi Mike,
YOU:
“In which part of Jesus’ response, exactly, is Jesus saying he is greater than Abraham? Which exact words?”
“Do you acknowledge that IF we translated the last part of 8:58 as a historical present, the EXACT phrase would be, “before Abraham existed, I existed”? Yes or No, please?”
ME: NO
Before Abraham was (Ginomai), I am (Eimi)
Ginomai, to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being
be 255, come to pass 82, be made 69
Eimi, to be, to exist, to happen, to be present
I am 74, am 55
Why didn’t the author just use the same word then, if it is suppose to read Abraham existed, I existed?
Because two different words are used that leaves an opening that the author speaking God’s word used two different words for the very purpose to establish a distinction.
John 8:53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?
John 8:25 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.
It’s about who Jesus is declaring himself to be, the greater than Abraham question fell into play as he continued to speak. Which who he makes himself out to be in John 8 and from the beginning of when he was sent by God to speak the words of God, which much of it concerned himself, is the promised Christ. Christ is he who indeed is not only greater than Abraham but as we are told, he is greater than Jonah, greater than Solomon and greater than Jacob.
Matthew 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. 41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here. 42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.
John 4:12 Art thou greater than our father Jacob, which gave us the well, and drank thereof himself, and his children, and his cattle? 13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again: 14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life…24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. 25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. 26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.
He’s not greater because he existed before them, he is greater as the promised Christ, which before Solomon was, before Jacob was, and even before Abraham was, such was declared of him by God, even declared before the world was.
Acts 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
Which the time of restitution is Jesus’s day. The day that Abraham saw and rejoiced over. The day where the blind guides, who Jesus was speaking to, would be destroyed for their unbelief and Abraham would receive glory for his belief. The day declared by God since the world began even before Abraham was.
The point I made that Jesus didn’t say” Before Abraham was, I was”, he said, “Before Abraham was, I am”, is not a weak point for the author used 2 different words and the translators also created the necessary distinction. It’s not weak at all considering the very fact that upon Jesus receiving the Spirit he goes out declaring who HE IS, which is exactly what he is doing throughout John 8. Jesus IS our CHRIST and he is coming on a day to reward believers and destroy the unbelievers, and who he IS was declared before Abraham was.
Maybe this will help you see Mike,
Matthew 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? 16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ
Mark 14:61 But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed? 62 And Jesus said, I am:
I AM means CHRIST
John 8: 25 Who art thou?
John 8:53 Whom makest thou thyself?
John 8:58 Before Abraham was, I AM
Hi Mike,
Worry I forgot to include at the beginning of my past post NO, so I went back up and added it.
Hi Mike,
Sorry but you failed again.
PLEASE directly speak to these words,
Matthew 1:1 1 The book of the generation(Genesis/origin) of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham. Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob and Jacob begat Judas…..and Eliud begat Eleazar; and Eleazar begat Matthan; and Matthan begat Jacob; And Jacob begat Joseph
17 SO/THEREFORE there were fourteen generations (genea/been begotten, men of the same stock) from Abraham to David, fourteen generations from David to the exile to Babylon, and fourteen generations from the exile to Babylon to the Christ.
How is it that from the above you can reach the conclusion that Matthew is telling us that Joseph represents Jesus’s ADOPTED father? I apply the above directly to Micah 5:2, but if you read “this is the book of the origin of Jesus Christ” but then say it is not, that is a problem.
I will use the above passages to make my point regarding below,
YOU: If Abraham can be considered the “origin” of Jesus, then Abraham can also be considered the “origin” of every single one of his descendants, right? So we could equally say that Mary, whose origins were from ancient times, married Joseph, whose origins were from ancient times, and they begat a daughter name Simeon, whose origins were from ancient times. And we end up with EVERYONE in the entire world having “origins from ancient times” – which negates the very meaning and importance of Micah’s statement concerning the coming ruler. Do you understand that, Jodi? If EVERYONE IN THE ENTIRE WORLD can be said to have “origins from ancient times” just because their ancestry includes people who lived in the distant past, then Micah saying that about Jesus would have ZERO meaning and ZERO importance. I mean, who cares that this particular future ruler had ancestors who lived a very long time ago when EVERYBODY IN THE WORLD also has ancestors who lived a very long time ago?”
ME: I get your point, it’s obvious, and I knew this was your line of thinking before you even gave it and I attempted in a previous post to address this, but doesn’t seem as if you caught on.
“We are given in Matthew the GENESIS/ORIGIN of Jesus Christ and it’s Abraham. Abraham’s seed was promised to be our Christ, our lord/master/ruler. God didn’t make the promise to Noah, or Shem, or Eber or Terah, it was promised beginning with Abraham concerning his seed and then was promised to David concerning his seed. One from Judah, a seed of David and going back even farther to ancient times, a seed of Abraham, the very man to whom the promise originated through, as it’s through his seed.”
All of us have our origin in Adam and Eve, Jesus included, no brainer there. The origin of Jesus as Christ which thus makes him the ruler over Israel, however comes from being of the seed of Abraham. This is why Matthew says that he is giving us the book of the origin of Jesus Christ and that origin given is Abraham, not Adam.
Micah 2:But you, O Bethlehem Ephrathah, who are too little to be among the clans of Judah, from you shall come forth for me one who is to be ruler in Israel (who we know is Christ), whose coming forth/origin/ancestry is from of old, from ancient days (who we know is Abraham).
As I did already point out, even Matthew in calculating generations/men of the same stock, establishes how far back it is from Christ to Abraham. The origin/ancestry of Jesus Christ goes back to David of the tribe of Judah and goes even further back beginning with Abraham.
Hi Mike,
YOU: Great. I read all your scriptures, and didn’t see any of them that refer to Abraham rejoicing to see Jesus’ day. Just like you finally acknowledged that there are no prophesies to Abraham about a future ruler, you’ll have to honestly acknowledge that there are no scriptures that say Abraham rejoiced to see Jesus’ day.
ME:
Um, how about this scripture,
John 8:56 Jesus said that Abraham rejoiced to see his day and he saw it and was glad.
Hi Mike,
You don’t think that the day Jesus was talking about that the prophet Abraham saw, was the day spoken of in the below passages?
Malachi 4:1-2 “For behold, the day is coming, burning like a furnace; and all the arrogant and every evildoer will be chaff; and the day that is coming will set them ablaze,” says the Lord of hosts, “so that it will leave them neither root nor branch.” “But for you who fear My name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings; and you will go forth and skip about like calves from the stall.
Zeph 3:14 Sing, O daughter of Zion; shout, O Israel; be glad and rejoice with all the heart, O daughter of Jerusalem. 15 The LORD hath taken away thy judgments, he hath cast out thine enemy: the king of Israel, even the LORD, is in the midst of thee: thou shalt not see evil any more. 16 In that day it shall be said to Jerusalem, Fear thou not: and to Zion, Let not thine hands be slack.
You don’t think that the prophet Abraham was glad and rejoiced, just as God had asked, for he saw also that which Zephaniah saw?
Acts 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. 22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. 23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people. 24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days. 25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
We are supposed to believe that in Abraham being told by God that all nations would be blessed by his seed, it went no further than that? It’s out of the question to even consider that Abraham was glad and rejoiced because he saw Christ coming and bringing forth restitution?
I guess I just repeat stuff because I hope at some point you will apply scriptures to scripture. But I forgot you like to play the game of reading a passage while forgetting all else biblically known.
Jesus said Abraham was glad and rejoiced to see his day, he was glad and rejoiced over seeing the very day that God asked people to be glad and rejoice over, the day that Christ comes and destroys the unbelievers and rewards the righteous, the day of restitution, the day all kindreds of the earth are blessed, from Jews to Gentiles through Abraham’s own seed.
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