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Jodi: How Adam came to be a human, how Eve came to be a human and how Cain came to be a human all occurred in different ways. This is the same for Jesus…
Thank you. That’s exactly what I’m saying. All human. All came to be human by different means, although Jesus and Eve are by very similar means.
Jodi: I would also like for you to address the purpose that we are given by God for the virgin birth, because you and others seem to try real hard to change that very purpose.
It was to be a sign. What about it? How does it affect the discussion in any way?
Mike,
You seemed to have missed my point that Jesus right afterwards in Matthew 24 said that these Pharisees were BLIND.
How convenient for you that you see them as blind to one thing but it’s not possible for them to be blind to another.
Concerning David calling Jesus lord,
No one but Jesus has been made a king of kings and the lord of lords.
Acts 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Isaiah 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
Acts 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
Mike, David calling his son Jesus his lord has nothing to do with Jesus pre-existing and everything to do with Jesus being a man who God ordained. This man doesn’t judge the world and divide the spoil because he pre-existed, but because he is the son of Jesse to whom God’s Spirit dwells in him, where he has been appointed to judges not according to his own eyes and ears but through the Spirit that lives in him. He is lord overall the earth, even Abraham will call him lord.
Isaiah 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: 2 And the Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; 3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: 4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
Ephes 5:9 For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth.
As far as Jesus being the root of David,
Rev 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
Rev 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
root, Rhiza,
a root
that which like a root springs from a root, a sprout, shoot
metaph. offspring, progenyJesus is a root that sprung from the root David
Though I will say, nothing that God had made would have been made without Jesus Christ. Without God’s word from the beginning of eternal life and the man who would bring it forth, even Adam would not have been created.
Jodi: Paul spoke of himself also concerning the flesh, he like Jesus was an Israelite according to the flesh, Jesus’s fathers were Israelites.
Fair enough…
Romans 9:6-7… For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. Nor because they are Abraham’s descendants are they all his children.
It’s clear that Paul is saying the Jews are his brethren according to lineage – but not necessarily according to Spirit. And in this context, you could rationally conclude that the Jews were also Jesus’ brethren according to lineage – but not necessarily according to Spirit. I concede the point.
Jodi: My problem Mike, is that it’s all about YHVH’s Spirit coming to dwell in a man and what that Spirit accomplished in that man once he was sent out into the world…
Yahweh’s Spirit came to dwell in MANY men all throughout the Bible. That has nothing to do with whether or not Jesus preexisted his time on earth. This part of your argument is no different than your “Jesus was a man” argument. You and I agree that Jesus was indeed a man, and that God’s Spirit indeed dwelt in Jesus.
There is no need for you to post any more scriptures saying the coming Messiah would be a man, or that God’s Spirit would dwell in him. 👍🙂
Jodi: Mike, do you agree that Jesus having been anointed with the Spirit at the river Jordan thus made him the anointed, our Christ?
Hard to say. Was Cyrus God’s prophesied anointed one from the moment he was born? Or did he become that when he wrote his decree to rebuild Jerusalem? What do you think?
Jodi: Jesus said, a man must be born of water and of the Spirit to enter into the kingdom of God. We read prior that Jesus was baptized to fulfill all righteousness, he was immersed in water and when he rose up from the water the Spirit descended and came to abode in him without measure.
Is it truly not obvious to you that Jesus at the river Jordan was born of water and of the Spirit?
Not at all, because Jesus not only said one must be born of water and Spirit – but that flesh cannot enter. In fact, Jesus emphatically distinguished the two by saying, in effect, “flesh gives birth to flesh… and therefore you must be born of something other than flesh to enter”. Jesus was still flesh after his baptism.
Jodi: Is it truly not obvious to you that having the Spirit come to dwell in you without measure is exactly what being born of the Spirit means and thus also means to have been begotten by God?
No. I believe that Jesus was begotten by God when he was raised from the dead – based on the many scriptures YOU provided on that matter.
Jodi: You say Mike a spirit entity needed to come down to earth and be MADE INTO FLESH to be our savior.
No. Rather I say what the Bible says… that Jesus was existing in one form, emptied himself and was made into a different form. I don’t use the word “needed”, but only repeat what the Bible teaches.
Jodi: Jesus however says that he could do nothing of himself and scripture teaches us that it was the Spirit of God that came to dwell in a man of flesh that caused us to be saved.
None of God’s prophets could do anything of themselves. It was God, through His Spirit, who made the prophecies and performed the signs and wonders through all of them – including Jesus.
Jodi: Jesus was not SENT into the world UNTIL the Spirit came to live in him without measure and by that Spirit in him he became our savior.
In some contexts, you could understand “sent into the world” to mean “sent OUT into the various places in the world”. Others, such as John 6:38, cannot support that secondary understanding.
Of course these are the kinds of verses I hope to discuss in great detail – one at a time – once we get through this preliminary stuff. 🙂
Hi Mike,
Jesus is the ONLY mortal man to have received the Spirit not by measure. That is HUGE! We are told that is WHEN he was SENT and HOW he was able to go and do God’s work, that is how he was able to be our savior.
The flesh profits us nothing. Meaning that there is nothing within man himself that can bring him to the kingdom of God. Jesus could do nothing of himself, He needed God’s Spirit dwelling in his flesh and having it without measure meant that he would not fail.
Jesus was raised with his flesh not seeing decay and when he was raised from the dead he received the promised Holy Spirit. According to 1 John 1, Jesus was God’s Word from the beginning, eternal life made true in him, where people saw God’s word of eternal life in the man of flesh that they handled with their own hands. This Son of Man ascended to God’s right hand, Jesus is still FLESH. This Son of Man is returning in our Father’s glory, he is still flesh. Jesus is going to sit on his father David’s throne according to the flesh.
It’s all about the Spirit living in the created being God made us to be, a human being, not about what kind of being you are itself. Those who are led by the Spirit of God are the Sons of God no matter what kind of living creature God made you into. Jesus is the first human to have eternal life and he has that life because the Spirit of God lives in him to the cause of righteousness, where thus there is no sin and thus no death.
The bible doesn’t contradict, you just misinterpret.
Ezekiel 36, I will give it again,
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
Jodi: Hi Mike,
Luke 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being#stm5752 (as was supposed/Nomizo/to think) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,
Jesus was the son of Joseph just as people thought he was.
I conceded the “according to the flesh” argument because in each case, it doesn’t unequivocally mean what I still think that it does mean. It does in Acts 2:30, “Therefore [David] being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne…”, but unfortunately for me, the phrase “according to the flesh” is not in a lot of the Greek mss, the ancient Syriac or Ethiopic versions, or the Latin Vulgate, and it would not be honest on my part to use something that very well may be spurious just to “win” a point.
On the other hand, your explanation for Luke 3:23 is, IMO, as absurd as it would be if I DID try to force Acts 2:30 KJV down your throat as valid evidence.
Can you find any other instance, in the entire history of the world, where everyone already KNEW that X was the son of Y, but someone added the phrase “as it was supposed” to his statement to that effect?
For example, “King Charles was, as it was supposed, the son of Queen Elizabeth”.
If you can find another such example, you will give much needed support to your argument. As for me, I offer these in support for mine…
Matthew 13:54-56… “Where did this man get such wisdom and miraculous powers?” they asked. “Isn’t this the carpenter’s son? Isn’t His mother’s name Mary, and aren’t His brothers James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas? Aren’t all His sisters with us as well? Where then did this man get all these things?”
John 6:42… They were asking, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How then can He say, ‘I have come down from heaven?’”
These people all already “KNEW” that Jesus was Joseph’s son, right? And if that was truly the case, then Luke would have simply written, “Jesus, son of Joseph, son of Heli…”.
On the other hand, if Jesus wasn’t REALLY the son of Joseph (as all these people supposed), then it would make perfect sense for Luke to write, “Jesus, son of Joseph (as was supposed/thought), son of Heli…”.
Jodi, this is one of the MANY anomalies that we would expect to find if there was something more about Jesus than what meets the eye.
Another one is Jesus asking how the Messiah could be David’s son if David calls him “my Lord”, and then later identifying himself as both the offspring AND the root of David.
They are starting to pile up a little, and I’ve barely scratched the surface.
Hi Mike,
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Don’t you believe that Jesus left his glory behind when he became flesh?
THE WORD OF GOD,
Isaiah 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my Spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. 2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street. 3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth. 4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law. 5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: 6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a LIGHT of the Gentiles; 7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house. 8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images. 9 Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them.
This was THE WORD that was made true in the flesh of Jesus of Nazareth and the people beheld his glory, the glory of the only mortal man to have been begotten with YHVH’s Spirit without measure. He received the Spirit TO preach God’s WORD of truth, he was full of truth upon being filled with the Spirit where he then was sent to preach the truth.
Come on Mike, to have the Spirit of God come to LIVE IN YOU is not being begotten by God? The people beheld his glory, not because God’s Spirit filled him with grace and truth, not because through the Spirit he also went about performing miracles like healing the blind and raising the dead, but because they were suppose to image the glory that he left behind as an only begotten son?
Jesus having the Spirit not by measure does not make him in the form of God? Jesus doing God’s work in God’s name, does not make him in the form of God?
John 12:44 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me. 45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me. 46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.
Such is the glory of the man of God’s word who received God’s Spirit and was called to righteousness for to be light.
Jodi: As far as Jesus being the root of David,
Rev 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
Rev 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
root, Rhiza,
a root
that which like a root springs from a root, a sprout, shoot
metaph. offspring, progenyJesus is a root that sprung from the root David
I was not able to find that word used as a “sprout” or a “root that springs from a root” in any NT scripture. I did, however, notice that ALL NT uses of that word (after a cursory glance) refer to just plain old “root” – as in that which comes first, and from which springs the rest of the tree or whatever. For example…
Romans 11:16-18… …if the root is holy, so are the branches. If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you.
Now, maybe you can find an NT example where it does mean “root from another root”, but the bottom line is that the word definitely CAN mean a root FROM WHICH the branches spring, right?
And it can also allegedly mean “offspring”, right?
So then we go to the context…
Revelation 22:16… I am the root and the offspring of David…
So let’s translate it as root… “I preceded AND followed David.” Or, “I am before AND after David.” Or think about that Romans passage above… “I am the root AND the branch of David.”
And now let’s do it your way… “I am the offspring AND the offspring of David.” Or, “I am the son AND the son of David.” Or, in light of the Romans passage… “I am the branch AND the branch of David.”
Does your way work, Jodi?
Jodi: Jesus is a root that sprung from the root David
In other words, an offspring of David, right? Does it make sense to say Jesus is the offspring AND the offspring of David? Or does it make better sense in that context that Jesus is referring to two DIFFERENT things that he is in relation to David?
Now ADD the only rational interpretation of 22:16 (“I am BOTH the Root AND the Offspring of David”) to Jesus’ question about David calling him “My Lord” (and the Pharisees’ inability to answer it), and we’re starting to paint a clear and rational picture.
Jodi: Though I will say, nothing that God had made would have been made without Jesus Christ. Without God’s word from the beginning of eternal life and the man who would bring it forth, even Adam would not have been created.
We’ll get to the Word of God who was made flesh soon enough. I’m just trying to do a little house cleaning first.
Jodi: The bible doesn’t contradict, you just misinterpret.
You haven’t presented a single contradiction in my interpretation of scripture – and so I don’t know why you would even say such a thing. Maybe you could expose one of my contradictions first, and then we can talk about who is misinterpreting what.
Thanks.
Hi Mike,
The fact of the matter is Luke 3:23 is saying that Jesus is the son of Joseph and Mathew makes it certain that we are to believe that he is a bio son of Joseph. Don’t lose sight of that. But with that being said, I am wondering if it crossed your mind, that the author of Luke is saying that people thought Joseph was Jesus’s father just like they assume other men to be the fathers of their children? We know that Mark didn’t even bother to mention a virgin birth, so wouldn’t people have just supposed that Joseph, being Mary’s husband who displayed himself to be Jesus’s father, would be just that, Jesus’s father?
Jodi: This was THE WORD that was made true in the flesh of Jesus of Nazareth…
You listed an Isaiah passage in which Yahweh prophesied about a coming PERSON, and then concluded that this PERSON was the word(s) that Yahweh spoke. 🤔
By the way, John doesn’t say the Word came to be “made true IN the flesh of Jesus”, Jodi. He says the Word BECAME flesh and dwelt among us.
Jodi: Come on Mike, to have the Spirit of God come to LIVE IN YOU is not being begotten by God?
Apparently not.
Acts 13:32-33… And now we proclaim to you the good news: What God promised our fathers He has fulfilled for us, their children, by raising up Jesus. As it is written in the second Psalm: ‘You are My Son; today I have become Your Father.’
Hebrews 5:5… In the same way, Christ did not take on himself the glory of becoming a high priest. But God said to him, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father.”
When did Jesus become God’s high priest in the order of Melchizedek?
Hebrews 6:19-20… We have this hope as an anchor for the soul, firm and secure. It enters the inner sanctuary behind the curtain, where our forerunner, Jesus, has entered on our behalf. He has become a high priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek.
Now add to that the fact that Ps 2:7 prophesies about a time when God sets a king on Zion and gives him authority over all the kingdoms of the earth. When did that happen for Jesus? Because it is at that time that God says, “You are my Son. This day I have begotten you.”
Jesus didn’t become a priest at the Jordan. Nor was he exalted as King on Zion over the nations of the world at the Jordan. Plus, that first verse above point blank says it happened when God raised Jesus up.
Jodi: The fact of the matter is Luke 3:23 is saying that Jesus is the son of Joseph and Mathew makes it certain that we are to believe that he is a bio son of Joseph.
How many times do we have to go through this? Jodi, did Mary become pregnant by Joseph? Yes or No please.
Jodi: …wouldn’t people have just supposed that Joseph, being Mary’s husband who displayed himself to be Jesus’s father, would be just that, Jesus’s father?
No… people would have “KNOWN” that Jesus was Joseph’s son. They wouldn’t “suppose” it. What if someone said this to you…
“Here comes Suzie, the daughter – so it is supposed – of Dan.”
What would you immediately think? I know I’d think that Dan and most other people THINK Suzie is Dan’s bio daughter, but the person talking to you knows a little secret about the mailman or something.
Your first reaction would most likely be to ask, “What do you mean by ‘so it is supposed’? Is she not really Dan’s daughter?”
Can you admit that this is likely exactly what you’d do if someone said something like that to you?
Hi Mike,
Here is one,
Romans 15:12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.
In the OT in Isaiah 11:10 this word root/ sheresh figurately means, of people involving firmness or permanence.
Rev 221:6 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. 17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely…20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
The eternal king of David’s throne is he who is coming quickly.
Jesus is not just David’s offspring, he is the permanent king over David’s throne.
We also are given the below,
1 Cornithians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.Reve 1:Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loveth us, and loosed us from our sins by his blood;
We read prior of Rev 22,
Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away.
He who shed his blood IS a firstborn overall creation, the Eternal Creation, which was YHVH’s PURPOSE before He made the worlds.
Jesus would be the root of David and us all. But I really think that what Jesus was speaking to in Revelation 22 was his permanence, as a man with eternal life ruling on David’s throne forevermore, to whom he was the offspring of.
Hi Mike,
If you could please address the below,
Matthew 1 is giving us the BOOK of Jesus’s origin, his genetic line of whom he was begotten from to establish that he is thus a bio son of Abraham and David, that BOOK OF JESUS’s origin goes from Abraham to Joseph. Joseph is without question the bio father of Jesus according to Matthew. Mary became pregnant by the seed of Joseph where the Holy Spirit came upon her and the power of the Highest Spirit overshadowed whereby Matthews words true.
1 The book of the generation (GENESIS/ORIGIN) of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.
2 Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren;
3 And Judas begat Phares and Zara of Thamar; and Phares begat Esrom; and Esrom begat Aram;
4 And Aram begat Aminadab; and Aminadab begat Naasson; and Naasson begat Salmon;
5 And Salmon begat Booz of Rachab; and Booz begat Obed of Ruth; and Obed begat Jesse;
6 And Jesse begat David the king; and David the king begat Solomon of her that had been the wife of Urias;
7 And Solomon begat Roboam; and Roboam begat Abia; and Abia begat Asa;
8 And Asa begat Josaphat; and Josaphat begat Joram; and Joram begat Ozias;
9 And Ozias begat Joatham; and Joatham begat Achaz; and Achaz begat Ezekias;
10 And Ezekias begat Manasses; and Manasses begat Amon; and Amon begat Josias;
11 And Josias begat Jechonias and his brethren, about the time they were carried away to Babylon:
12 And after they were brought to Babylon, Jechonias begat Salathiel; and Salathiel begat Zorobabel;
13 And Zorobabel begat Abiud; and Abiud begat Eliakim; and Eliakim begat Azor;
14 And Azor begat Sadoc; and Sadoc begat Achim; and Achim begat Eliud;
15 And Eliud begat Eleazar; and Eleazar begat Matthan; and Matthan begat Jacob;
16 And Jacob begat Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.
17 So all the generations (GENEA/Begotten) from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.Hi Mike,
Back to Luke,
Luke 3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased. 23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,
24 the son of Matthat, the son of Levi, the son of Melki, the son of Jannai, the son of Joseph,
25 the son of Mattathias, the son of Amos, the son of Nahum, the son of Esli, the son of Naggai,
26 the son of Maath, the son of Mattathias, the son of Semein, the son of Josek, the son of Joda,
27 the son of Joanan, the son of Rhesa, the son of Zerubbabel, the son of Shealtiel, the son of Neri,
28 the son of Melki, the son of Addi, the son of Cosam, the son of Elmadam, the son of Er,
29 the son of Joshua, the son of Eliezer, the son of Jorim, the son of Matthat, the son of Levi,
30 the son of Simeon, the son of Judah, the son of Joseph, the son of Jonam, the son of Eliakim,
31 the son of Melea, the son of Menna, the son of Mattatha, the son of Nathan, the son of David,
32 the son of Jesse, the son of Obed, the son of Boaz, the son of Salmon, the son of Nahshon,
33 the son of Amminadab, the son of Ram,the son of Hezron, the son of Perez, the son of Judah,
34 the son of Jacob, the son of Isaac, the son of Abraham, the son of Terah, the son of Nahor,
35 the son of Serug, the son of Reu, the son of Peleg, the son of Eber, the son of Shelah,
36 the son of Cainan, the son of Arphaxad, the son of Shem, the son of Noah, the son of Lamech,
37 the son of Methuselah, the son of Enoch, the son of Jared, the son of Mahalalel, the son of Kenan,
38 the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.Luke is not talking about JUST ANY son, just any child. Luke isn’t writing about Suzie, he’s writing about the son of David who sit’s at God’s right hand and is our savior and eternal king. Yes, I can concede that is not how people speak or write when they are saying someone is the father of someone, but as said, Luke isn’t talking about just any father and son.
Why did Luke then just not say, 22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased. 23 though it was thought that he was a Son of Joseph.
That seems to be how you want to interpret it.
So why would Luke even bother giving a genetic line that goes all the way to “Adam, the son of God. then?
Jodi: Hi Mike,
The fact of the matter is Luke 3:23 is saying that Jesus is the son of Joseph and Mathew makes it certain that we are to believe that he is a bio son of Joseph. Don’t lose sight of that.
Hey Jodi. Mary became pregnant with Jesus before Joseph ever touched her. In fact, he didn’t touch her until after Jesus was born.
We also know that the angel point blank told Joseph that the child in Mary was conceived by the Holy Spirit.
So no, Joseph was clearly NOT Jesus’ bio father – although he was Jesus’ father in every other way.
Jodi: But with that being said, I am wondering if it crossed your mind, that the author of Luke is saying that people thought Joseph was Jesus’s father just like they assume other men to be the fathers of their children?
That’s exactly what people thought, Jodi. Luke’s parenthetical “or so they assumed” comment is there for that very reason. Luke knew that Jesus was fathered by the Holy Spirit, but the vast majority of people who knew the family SUPPOSED that Joseph was his bio father.
Jodi: Here is one,
Romans 15:12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.
In the OT in Isaiah 11:10 this word root/ sheresh figurately means, of people involving firmness or permanence.
Try this version…
New American Standard Bible
Again Isaiah says, “THERE SHALL COME THE ROOT OF JESSE, AND HE WHO ARISES TO RULE OVER THE GENTILES, IN HIM WILL THE GENTILES HOPE.”In the Greek, root is preceded by the definite article, so it’s “the root”, not “a root”.
But the prophecy in Isaiah speaks of root in the normal way… that from which the branches arise. And the quotation of it in Romans is preceded by, “Christ has become a servant of the Jews on behalf of God’s truth, so that the promises made to the patriarchs might be confirmed…”.
Romans is just saying that what God prophesied through Isaiah came to pass with Jesus.
At any rate, they both concern THE root of Jesse – as in that which came before Jesse.
Jodi: The eternal king of David’s throne is he who is coming quickly.
Jesus is not just David’s offspring, he is the permanent king over David’s throne.
Exactly! And if David and his own son are both alive, there’s no way the son would rule from the father’s throne – which is the same point Jesus made with, “If David calls him Lord, how can he be David’s son?”
Jodi: Jesus would be the root of David and us all.
Jesus WAS the root of David and us all. He not only preceded David, but David’s own father Abraham.
Jodi, it seems as if you’re trying to argue that “root and offspring” in 22:16 means “eternal king and offspring”. There is no meaning of “root” to support such a leap, but it does show me that you agree that it would be illogical for Jesus to say he was the “branch AND the branch” of David. The two words joined by “and” cannot rationally mean the very same thing, right?
So is it possible to interpret it exactly the way it sounds… as Jesus saying that he is both the Root (that which preceded David) AND the Offspring (that which followed David)?
If not, why not?
Jodi: Mary became pregnant by the seed of Joseph where the Holy Spirit came upon her and the power of the Highest Spirit overshadowed whereby Matthews words true.
I don’t understand. Walk me through your idea, keeping in mind that Joseph didn’t sleep with Mary until after Jesus was born, and that the angel CLEARLY told Joseph that the child in Mary was fathered/begotten by the Holy Spirit.
How and when did Joseph’s seed come into play?
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