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THIS THREAD IS FOR JODI AND MIKE ONLY!
Hi Jodi. I assert that your non-preexistence interpretation of scripture can be nullified with one single statement Jesus made…
Luke 3:8… And do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham.
See, your entire argument is: Scripture says the coming messiah would be a human being from the line of David!
And you produce many volumes of scriptures saying this very thing. But we all AGREE with that premise and all of those scriptures, Jodi. You’re not actually making the argument you think you are, because we are ALL in agreement on these things.
The problem is that you ignore (or twist into unintelligible nonsense) the many other scriptures that make it undeniably clear that Jesus existed in heaven BEFORE he lived in the form of a man from the line of David.
So now consider those words from your Lord above. If God WERE to raise up children of Abraham from those stones…
1. Would they be true living human beings? Of course they would.
2. Would they have come from the line of Abraham? Of course they would have.
3. Would they have come into existence by extraordinary means? Yes.
4. And would they have preexisted their humanity as something other than human beings, namely, stones? YES!
Do you understand those things, Jodi? They WOULD BE humans. They WOULD BE of the line of Abraham. They WOULD HAVE become humans in a non-traditional way. And they WOULD HAVE preexisted their humanity as something OTHER THAN the humans they later became.
Likewise, Jesus WAS a human. Jesus WAS of the line of David. Jesus DID become a human in a non-traditional way. And Jesus DID preexist his humanity as something other than the human he later became.
So since NONE of your “the messiah will be a human being” scriptures actually change anything; and since none of us disagree with any of those scriptures in the first place, let’s focus our attention on the scriptures that teach of Jesus’ existence BEFORE he was made in the form of a human being.
Hi Mike,
First of all Luke 3:8 is John speaking not Jesus, but that is really a mute point.
Isaiah 51: 1 “Listen to me, you who pursue righteousness and who seek the LORD: Look to the rock from which you were cut and to the quarry from which you were hewn; 2 look to Abraham, your father, and to Sarah, who gave you birth. When I called him he was only one man, and I blessed him and made him many. 3 The LORD will surely comfort Zion and will look with compassion on all her ruins; he will make her deserts like Eden, her wastelands like the garden of the LORD. Joy and gladness will be found in her, thanksgiving and the sound of singing. 4 “Listen to me, my people; hear me, my nation: Instruction will go out from me; my justice will become a light to the nations. 5 My righteousness draws near speedily, my salvation is on the way, and my arm will bring justice to the nations. The islands will look to me and wait in hope for my arm. 6 Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath; for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment; and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be forever, and my righteousness shall not be abolished. 7 Hearken unto me, ye that know righteousness, the people in whose heart is my law; fear ye not the reproach of men, neither be ye dismayed at their revilings.
John 3:6 And all flesh shall see the salvation of God. Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham and now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire and the people asked him, saying, What shall we do then? He answereth and saith unto them, He that hath two coats, let him impart to him that hath none; and he that hath meat, let him do likewise.
Luke 3:8 did initially make me think of Adam having been formed out of the dust.
YHVH has the ability to create inorganic things and living things from the elements of the world, which is exactly what He did when He created earth and all things therein. YHVH formed man of the dust of the ground, so it would make sense to me that John would say that God could even raise up children of Abraham from stones, though Abraham and Sarah are called the stone to which the children were cut from in Isaiah. We don’t say that Adam pre-existed as dust. If God were to create children of Abraham from stones it’s also ridiculous to me to say these children pre-existed as those stones. Humans are made from 23 chromosomes from their mother and 23 from their father, we don’t say we all pre-existed as chromosomes, pre-existing in two separate places, at that. It’s ridiculous because Adam didn’t have a previous LIFE as dust, nor would we say that Abraham’s children had a previous LIFE as rocks. Your argument is that Jesus had a previous life before he was a human being. Using Luke 3:8 as an example as to how Jesus had a previous life doesn’t work at all, it’s absurd, astonishing that you really think this passage nullifies the non pre-existence stance.
Hi Mike,
You said, “your entire argument is: Scripture says the coming messiah would be a human being from the line of David!”
That is simply not true as you will come to find out as we move forward in posts after this!
You said, “And you produce many volumes of scriptures saying this very thing. But we all AGREE with that premise and all of those scriptures, Jodi. You’re not actually making the argument you think you are, because we are ALL in agreement on these things.”
You said, “Jesus DID become a human in a non-traditional way.”
Tell me more about that?
A living Son of God literally came down from heaven to find himself in a uterus and he is now a human being, how so? Let me guess, anything with God is possible, is your answer?
Is he human but also more than human? If you say yes, then he’s not actually human, he is some one of a kind being, and you can say you believe he was a human all you want but I think that is just deceitful if you also believe that he is literally a living Son/non human, coming down from heaven and finding himself in a uterus.
WHAT OF the embryo, the fetus, the baby that was Jesus, was also the Son of God from heaven exactly? This doctrine is not of scripture but of man’s imagination, it’s against God’s truth and is completely stupid IMO, it reflects total pagan nonsense.
Yes, Jesus being born of a virgin is a non-traditional way of being born. Would you agree, that Isaiah 7 includes prophecy of this virgin birth?
If so, his birth by a virgin was for the purpose of a sign unto the house of David concerning who would not rule on David’s throne and thus who obviously would according to God’s promise. For any who believe in the virgin birth as prophecy from Isaiah but then say that it’s purpose was actually for God to take an existing son and place him into a uterus, is changing the word of God and His purpose.
If you do not believe Jesus’s birth was according to prophecy from Isaiah 7 that’s okay, I have another point.
Matthew in chapter 1 says that he is giving us the BOOK of Jesus’s GENESIS/ORIGIN, the book of his GENETIC LINE to show that he is a bio son of Abraham and a bio son of David. That genetic book goes from Abraham to Joseph, thus Matthew is directly telling us that Jesus is a bio son of Abraham and David through Joseph. The virgin Mary was FOUND with child of the Holy Spirit, meaning that it was of the Holy Spirit that the virgin Mary was able to be FOUND with child. Only by the power of YHVH’s Spirit could a virgin conceive back then. “The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee”.
Jesus is a human according to YHVH’s TRUTH of what makes a human, 46 chromosomes with 23 coming from each parent, Joseph and Mary, where when brought together such brings forth a conception of a human being. If we are told that Jesus is a human than I believe he is such according to YHVH’s established truth as to what He designed as needed to create a human being. How perfect then that Matthew testifies unto us this truth done so through the power of YVHV’s Spirit.
I have yet to have anyone actually address what Matthew is in fact telling us so I am looking forward to hearing what you have to say.
Hi Mike,
You said, “your entire argument is: Scripture says the coming messiah would be a human being from the line of David!”
That is simply not true as you will come to find out as we move forward in posts after this!
You said, “And you produce many volumes of scriptures saying this very thing. But we all AGREE with that premise and all of those scriptures, Jodi. You’re not actually making the argument you think you are, because we are ALL in agreement on these things.”
You said, “Jesus DID become a human in a non-traditional way.”
Tell me more about that?
A living Son of God literally came down from heaven to find himself in a uterus and he is now a human being, how so? Let me guess, anything with God is possible, is your answer?
Is he human but also more than human? <span style=”color: #ff0000;”>If you say yes, then he’s not actually human, he is some one of a kind being</span>, and you can say you believe he was a human all you want but I think that is just deceitful if you also believe that he is literally a living Son/non human, coming down from heaven and finding himself in a uterus.
WHAT OF the embryo, the fetus, the baby that was Jesus, was also the Son of God from heaven exactly? This doctrine is not of scripture but of man’s imagination, it’s against God’s truth and is completely stupid IMO, it reflects total pagan nonsense.
Yes, Jesus being born of a virgin is a non-traditional way of being born. Would you agree, that Isaiah 7 includes prophecy of this virgin birth?
If so, his birth by a virgin was for the purpose of a sign unto the house of David concerning who would not rule on David’s throne and thus who obviously would according to God’s promise. For any who believe in the virgin birth as prophecy from Isaiah but then say that it’s purpose was actually for God to take an existing son and place him into a uterus, is changing the word of God and His purpose.
If you do not believe Jesus’s birth was according to prophecy from Isaiah 7 that’s okay, I have another point.
<span style=”color: #ff0000;”>Matthew in chapter 1 says that he is giving us the BOOK of Jesus’s GENESIS/ORIGIN, the book of his GENETIC LINE</span> to show that he is a bio son of Abraham and a bio son of David. That genetic book goes from Abraham to Joseph, thus Matthew is directly telling us that Jesus is a bio son of Abraham and David through Joseph. The virgin Mary was FOUND with child of the Holy Spirit, meaning that it was of the Holy Spirit that the virgin Mary was able to be FOUND with child. Only by the power of YHVH’s Spirit could a virgin conceive back then. “The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee”.
<span style=”color: #ff0000;”>Jesus is a human according to YHVH’s TRUTH of what makes a human,<span style=”color: #000000;”> 46 chromosomes with 23 coming from each parent, Joseph and Mary, where when brought together such brings forth a conception of a human being.</span></span> If we are told that Jesus is a human than I believe he is such according to YHVH’s established truth as to what He designed as needed to create a human being. <span style=”color: #ff0000;”>How perfect then that Matthew testifies unto us this truth done so through the power of YVHV’s Spirit.</span>
I have yet to have anyone actually address what Matthew is in fact telling us so I am looking forward to hearing what you have to say.
I saw that too. I haven’t forgotten about you. I’ve been looking forward to this for a very long time. I will respond soon. 🙂
Hi Jodi. My point was not whether it would be common to say that these 100% human sons of Abraham pre-existed as stones. My point, which you have reinforced with your comments about Adam and chromosomes, was that God can create a human being out of stuff that already exists in a non-human state.
God can therefore create a 100% human being out of an existing spirit entity. Agreed?
Hi Mike,
I recall you saying that you can mostly only post on weekends, which I totally understand, no worries!
First let me say that just because God is able to do something doesn’t mean that He did and the scriptures tell me that He most certainly didn’t.
It’s not just a non human state, you are comparing a belief of a living entity, an existing spirit entity, to that of non living stuff, rocks like that of dust. So one living entity being created into a different living entity, verses non living stuff being made into a living entity where that stuff is found within all living entities of it’s kind.
Is the material of this spirit entity also in every man, just as the material of the dust of the earth is in every man?
Good Morning Mike,
You are saying God could create a 100% human being out of an existing spirit entity. What about Mary where does she fit in exactly?
The thing is Mike is that I fully believe what Matthew tells us in chapter one, that Matthew did give us THE BOOK of Jesus’s GENESIS/ORIGIN, THE BOOK of his GENEA/GENETIC LINE to show how Jesus is a bio son of Abraham and a bio son of David, where that genetic line given goes from Abraham directly to Joseph. Joseph and Mary were betrothed where they would come together and produce children, however God promised unto the house of David a sign of a child being born of a virgin, so before they came together God brought forth their son by the power of His Spirit to fulfill the sign.
Matthew 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of/ek/by the Holy Ghost. 21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. 22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, 23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
Luke 1:27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary. 28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. 29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be. 30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. 34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? 35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. 70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began……67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,
68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, 69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; 70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began: 71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us; 72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant; 73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,1 Chronicles 17:11 And it shall come to pass, when thy days be expired that thou must go to be with thy fathers, that I will raise up thy seed after thee, which shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom. 12 He shall build me an house, and I will stablish his throne for ever. 13 I will be his father, and he shall be my son: and I will not take my mercy away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee: 14 But I will settle him in mine house and in my kingdom for ever: and his throne shall be established for evermore. 15 According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David.
- The purpose of the virgin birth was for a sign unto the house of David, it’s purpose was not to send a spirit entity into a woman’s womb making him into a 100% human, that is against God’s word, that is against His purpose, it’s a direct lie.
- Matthew 1 tells us directly that Jesus is a bio son of Joseph.
- The Word of a son of David bringing salvation was God’s purpose SINCE THE WORLD BEGAN. As we also read in Acts 2, Jesus of Nazareth a man approved of by God who did signs and miracles because God was with him, was delivered to be slain by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God.
- The son of David, receiving glory being settled into God’s house, God’s kingdom and reigning over the house of Jacob for evermore, was God’s purpose SINCE THE WORLD BEGAN. When Jesus was going up to be slain he believed in this WORD of his glory that was of God for him from the beginning.
- First you have a son of David and then God is a Father to him and then he is settled into God’s kingdom forever.
Jodi: First let me say that just because God is able to do something doesn’t mean that He did…
I agree 100% with that part.
Jodi: …and the scriptures tell me that He most certainly didn’t.
I disagree 100% with that part, but that’s what we’re here to discuss.
Our common ground is that God COULD create sons for Abraham (or David) out of already existing angels just as easily as He could create them out of already existing stones, or dust of the earth or whatever.
But what would we expect to find in the Bible if God had indeed created a human son of David out of one of His preexisting spirit sons?
1. We would find a lot of scriptures saying that Jesus was a human being from the line of David.
2. We would find a lot of scriptures with anomalies that simply don’t align with Jesus being ONLY a human being from the line of David.
So every single scripture that you and Gene have ever posted about Jesus being a human being from the line of David is expected and accepted by me and everyone else who believes that Jesus preexisted. Those scriptures are in no way arguments against preexistence, since Jesus existing in the form of a human being from the line of David is an accepted part of the deal for us.
What I’d like to discuss with you are the scriptures in that second category, because therein lies the answer to our disagreement. So let’s start with this one scripture…
Matthew 22… 41While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, 42“What do you think about the Messiah? Whose son is he?”
“The son of David,” they replied.
43He said to them, “How is it then that David, speaking by the Spirit, calls him ‘Lord’? For he says,
44“ ‘The Lord said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies under your feet.” ’
45If then David calls him ‘Lord,’ how can he be his son?”
46No one could say a word in reply, and from that day on no one dared to ask him any more questions.
So my first two questions for you are…
1. How would YOU have answered Jesus’ question?
2. Why could none of the Pharisees (the foremost experts on the OT) provide him with an answer?
Jodi: Jesus is a bio son of David…
Joseph and Mary were betrothed where they would come together and produce children, however…. before they came together God brought forth their son by the power of His Spirit to fulfill the sign.
Mary was also of the line of David, Jodi, and so Joseph didn’t need to be the bio father of Jesus in order for Jesus to have literally come from the line of David.
So the parts of what you said that I’ve quoted above are 100% true. Jesus was indeed a bio son of David, who was brought forth in the womb of Mary by God – without any human action or participation by Joseph.
And that right there is one of those “anomalies” I was talking about. No other human in history had a human mother but God Himself as the literal father who begat them.
And if what I’m saying is true, we might expect to find certain other anomalies associated with Jesus’ birth on earth, such as…
Luke 3:23… Now Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he began his ministry. He was the son, so it was thought, of Joseph, the son of Heli…
What does that statement, “so it was thought” mean? Why did Luke even add those words?
Romans 9:5… theirs the patriarchs, and from them, according to the flesh, is the Messiah.
Again, why add the seemingly parenthetical phrase, “according to the flesh” into the statement?
Hi Mike,
We do have common ground with both agreeing that just because God is able to do something doesn’t mean that he did, but we still are not on common ground with your comparison, your comparison doesn’t work for me at all, they don’t fit.
The material of dust and stones are actually found in humans. All inorganic and living things are made up of elements, where the periodic table is like a book of ingredients to which God used to make all things we see on earth. God can take elements of dust and rocks to make humans but He also has to add all the other necessary elements and configure them just so in order to create a 100% human. For your comparison to work, God would have to have taken material from that spirit entity that is also found in every human to then make a human.
You said what I was waiting for you to say, “We would find a lot of scriptures with anomalies that simply don’t align with Jesus being ONLY a human being from the line of David.”
If Jesus is NOT ONLY human, than he is actually some ONE OF A KIND BEING. Jesus is either a one of a kind being or an actual 100% human being, you cannot have both, that is total nonsense against God and how He has defined how things exist. You can keep telling me that you believe Jesus is a 100% human being but I see that as one big lie, a total contradiction if you say he is also not only human. Such is conveniently changing God’s rules to how He made things exist on earth, whereby we are to hold to that wisdom that then becomes a matter of common sense.
Speaking of Matthew 22, what I know, to which you agree to, is that Jesus IS a son of David, scripture establishes that clearly. We also know that David saw his own son in prophecy rise from the dead and be exalted to God’s right hand. David also knew that a future son of his would bring forth redemption and David’s own resurrection. We also know that Jesus is returning where he will sit on his father David’s throne where he will be a king of kings and a lord of lords. This is exactly why David would call his own son lord.
Mike, go on and read Matthew 23, Jesus goes off about the scribes and the Pharisees. He calls these Pharisees BLIND guides and hypocrites. They were BLIND just as Jesus declared them to be, that would obviously be why they were not able to respond.
Hi Mike,
YOU: Mary was also of the line of David, Jodi, and so Joseph didn’t need to be the bio father of Jesus in order for Jesus to have literally come from the line of David.
ME: Here is the thing Mike, Matthew tells us directly that Joseph is Jesus’s bio father. Please go back and read my second post, #937916.
I will add though that for Jesus to be a 100% human being according to God, God needed 23 chromosomes from a human male for Him to cause Mary to be found with child.
Hi Mike,
Luke 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being#stm5752 (as was supposed/Nomizo/to think) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,
Jesus was the son of Joseph just as people thought he was.
Romans 9: 3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: 4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; 5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
Paul spoke of himself also concerning the flesh, he like Jesus was an Israelite according to the flesh, Jesus’s fathers were Israelites.
Hi Mike,
Jesus said he could do nothing of himself, he credited all the works that he was doing to God. Jesus quotes prophecy of Isaiah concerning himself saying, “The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised”.
Mike, is it twisting scripture to say that, “the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him” is why Jesus was then able to declare Isaiah’s prophecy was being fulfilled in him?
“32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.”
Is it twisting scripture to say that it is by the Spirit that came to abode in Jesus that he was then sent out into the world to preach, to heal, to set us at liberty?
Makes sense as to why Jesus would later say that he could do nothing of himself and why he would also be giving all credit to God, because of the fact that God’s Spirit came to dwell in him without measure, does it not?
My problem Mike, is that it’s all about YHVH’s Spirit coming to dwell in a man and what that Spirit accomplished in that man once he was sent out into the world, where he was later persecuted and slain by the determinate council and foreknowledge of YHVH . But you and others make it about a pre-existing Son needing to be sent into a woman’s uterus and you act totally blind to the fact that the anointed man Jesus of Nazareth bringing salvation and receiving glory was declared by YHVH from the beginning, prepared even before the world was. Jesus’s name means YHVH is salvation, Jesus was named that because YHVH’s Spirit would come to dwell in him, a begetting of the Spirit, where through that Spirit he would bring forth our redemption, set us at liberty. He is not named Jesus because God sent a son from heaven down into a woman’s uterus to save the world.
Acts 10:37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached; 38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
13:23 Of this man’s seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:
24 When John had first preached before his coming the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel.Luke 4:14 And Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit into Galilee: and there went out a fame of him through all the region round about. 15 And he taught in their synagogues, being glorified of all…17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written, 18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath ANOINTED me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
Mike, do you agree that Jesus having been anointed with the Spirit at the river Jordan thus made him the anointed, our Christ? John preached BEFORE Christ’s coming. John preached BEFORE our savior Jesus had COME. A spirit entity didn’t come to save, the anointed of the Spirit, Jesus of Nazareth an Israelite came. By the Spirit that came to abode in him he was then sent TO set us at liberty from our sins.
John 3: 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Matthew 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
Jesus said, a man must be born of water and of the Spirit to enter into the kingdom of God. We read prior that Jesus was baptized to fulfill all righteousness, he was immersed in water and when he rose up from the water the Spirit descended and came to abode in him without measure.
Is it truly not obvious to you that Jesus at the river Jordan was born of water and of the Spirit?
Is it truly not obvious to you that having the Spirit come to dwell in you without measure is exactly what being born of the Spirit means and thus also means to have been begotten by God?
We read that Jesus was resurrected receiving the promised Holy Spirit and went to sit in God’s kingdom at His right hand. We are told prophecy fulfilled, “this DAY I have begotten you”. Jesus was himself proof of the word’s of YHVH that he spoke that we read in John 3, he was born of the Spirit and entered into God’s kingdom. Just as he is likewise proof of YHVH’s word declared before the world was, eternal life promised unto mankind. People saw Jesus with their own eyes and handled him, they saw God’s promised WORD, eternal life that was with the Father from the beginning.
1 John 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; 2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us.
We read that John in Revelation,” saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away”, this IS the Creation that the man who shed his blood, Jesus Christ, is a firstborn of every creature to. YHVH makes all things new, even the animals are no longer wild when the son of Jesse comes to bring rest upon the earth according to Isaiah 11, where he is doing so through the Spirit of God that dwells in him, to which he received as promised when he rose from the dead.
Romans 1: 1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, 2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) 3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
Mike, Paul makes it clear, the image of the Son that we are to likewise become, and it’s not about what kind of being you exist as, it’s about God’s Spirit dwelling in the being that you are.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Ezekiel 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
Acts 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
It’s ALL ABOUT THE SPIRIT OF YHVH!
Hi Mike,
It’s all about the Spirit of God,
Hebrews 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
John 6:63 It is the Spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are Spirit, and they are life.
Romans 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
Matthew 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him. 16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
Called an anointing!
Isaiah 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; 7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.
Isaiah 45:13 I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith the LORD of hosts.
You say Mike a spirit entity needed to come down to earth and be MADE INTO FLESH to be our savior. Jesus however says that he could do nothing of himself and scripture teaches us that it was the Spirit of God that came to dwell in a man of flesh that caused us to be saved. Jesus was not SENT into the world UNTIL the Spirit came to live in him without measure and by that Spirit in him he became our savior.
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Luke 4:14 And Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit into Galilee: and there went out a fame of him through all the region round about. 15 And he taught in their synagogues, being glorified of all.
John 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him. 35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
Mike, I do not see how it is not obvious to you,
God’s WORD from the prophet Isaiah became true in the flesh of Jesus of Nazareth when he was filled with God’s Spirit without measure. Such made him the only mortal man begotten by God who was sent out and became famous where people glorified him as he spoke God’s TRUTH as he had been filled with the Spirit of Wisdom and Understanding, Council and Might, Knowledge and Fear of YHVH.
John 1:14 is not about a spirit entity being made flesh finding itself in a woman’s uterus.
Jesus being filled with the Spirit was a calling to righteousness where God’s covenant would be fulfilled, where God’s WORD that was WITH God from the beginning, Eternal life, would also be made true in the flesh, made true in Jesus upon his resurrection and him receiving the promised Holy Spirit. This was ALL YHVH’s WORD from the beginning, nothing would have been made that was made without this WORD. All things were made by reason of and for the man Jesus of Nazareth. The anointed man of the Spirit, brought forth the WORD of eternal life and he was also the first to receive it.
Jodi: Hi Mike,
We do have common ground with both agreeing that just because God is able to do something doesn’t mean that he did, but we still are not on common ground with your comparison, your comparison doesn’t work for me at all, they don’t fit.
Hi Jodi. I’m not making any “comparison”. I’m simply pointing out the FACT that if God can create a human out of dust, out of the rib of another human, or out of stones, then surely God could also create a human from one of His spirit sons.
Of course we agree on this, and so there’s no reason to keep rehashing it. We both agree that God CAN do anything. Our disagreement lies in whether or not God DID do a particular thing in the case of Jesus.
Jodi: The material of dust and stones are actually found in humans. All inorganic and living things are made up of elements…
And Jesus came from Mary, who was comprised of all of these things, right? Consider Eve. Was she human? Yes. Did she come from the stuff of only one human (as opposed to most of us who come from the stuff of two)? Yes. So could Jesus be just as human as Eve was, despite coming from the stuff of only one human? Yes. Your argument is moot, since we already have Eve as a precedent.
Jodi: If Jesus is NOT ONLY human, than he is actually some ONE OF A KIND BEING. Jesus is either a one of a kind being or an actual 100% human being, you cannot have both, that is total nonsense against God and how He has defined how things exist.
Was Adam (made from dust) a ONE OF A KIND BEING? Yes. Was he human? Yes. Was Eve (made from the stuff of one human) a ONE OF A KIND BEING? Yes. What she human? Yes. Was Cain (the first to be made from the stuff of two humans) a ONE OF A KIND BEING when he was born? Yes. Was he human? Yes.
Again, since we both agree that God COULD create a human FROM anything (preexisting dust, preexisting stones, and even a preexisting living entity), let’s get back to whether or not God DID do that in the case of Jesus.
Cheers.
Jodi: We also know that David saw his own son in prophecy rise from the dead and be exalted to God’s right hand. David also knew that a future son of his would bring forth redemption and David’s own resurrection. We also know that Jesus is returning where he will sit on his father David’s throne where he will be a king of kings and a lord of lords. This is exactly why David would call his own son lord.
Does scripture say that David knew this Lord was his own son? Or that he knew this Lord would rise from the dead, causing David’s own resurrection? Or that David understood that, even after he was resurrected and alive and well, his son would rule from David’s own throne, and he would call his own son his Lord?
Furthermore, if it was a case of Jesus being David’s literal son, could such a thing ever happen? Has any ruling king ever sat their son on their own throne and referred to their own son as their Lord?
What if David had come back to life while Solomon was ruling? Would Solomon continue to rule from David’s throne, while David bowed before him and call Solomon his Lord?
And if the question was so obvious and easy to answer, why would Jesus even ask it in the first place? And why wouldn’t the Pharisees (who knew more about the OT and Jewish culture than we do) be able to answer it just as easily as you did?
Why didn’t they just say, “Simple… the Messiah will be greater than David! Next question.” ?
Jodi: [Jesus] calls these Pharisees BLIND guides and hypocrites. They were BLIND just as Jesus declared them to be, that would obviously be why they were not able to respond.
Yes, but Jesus also said this about them…
Matthew 23:2-4… The scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So practice and observe everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. They tie up heavy, burdensome loads and lay them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.…
They were called experts in the Law and the Prophets for a reason, Jodi… despite being blind guides in that they didn’t practice what they preached and that they held the Law in higher esteem than mercy (Matt 23:23). Your answer begins with things that David supposedly knew when he wrote Psalm 110. Why then didn’t the experts in the Law and Prophets also know what David knew?
I have an alternative. In a culture where NO father would bow to his own son and call him “my Lord”, is it possible that Jesus not only followed David, but also preceded him? And in that case, Jesus would be both the offspring AND the root of David? In fact, is there any other conceivable way for Jesus to have been both the offspring AND the root of David?
Hi Mike,
NO, Adam was not made into a one of a kind being, he was made into a human being the first of his kind. Cain was not made into a one of a kind being, he was made into a human being.
How Adam came to be a human, how Eve came to be a human and how Cain came to be a human all occurred in different ways. This is the same for Jesus, he was born through yet a different way, though what the power of God’s Spirit did, man can now do, cause a virgin to conceive with depositing sperm into the woman’s reproductive tract.
How Jesus became a human and the fact that Jesus is a human are two separate things. Humans can be made in different ways, but the end result is the SAME.
But you believe that Jesus is not just human, that means you believe that he was born a one of a kind being. Your end result is not the same. As said, you can’t have both, he is either a human being or he is some one of a kind being.
Matthew 1 tells us that Jesus is the bio son of Joseph, I don’t believe that anyone can get around that, but I am interested in seeing you try.
I would also like for you to address the purpose that we are given by God for the virgin birth, because you and others seem to try real hard to change that very purpose.
Jodi: Here is the thing Mike, Matthew tells us directly that Joseph is Jesus’s bio father.
Matthew actually makes it abundantly clear that Joseph couldn’t possibly be Jesus’ bio father, since Mary became pregnant with Jesus before she had ever been with Joseph – and that Joseph, knowing about her condition, was even going to divorce her because he knew the child WASN’T his.
Then the angel came to Joseph in a dream and told him – not that the child WAS his – but that the child was conceived by the Holy Spirit.
Understand? NOT by Joseph, but by the Holy Spirit.
Jodi: I will add though that for Jesus to be a 100% human being according to God, God needed 23 chromosomes from a human male for Him to cause Mary to be found with child.
Did God also need to place 23 additional chromosomes into Adam to produce Eve?
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