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Hi BT,
You say“I have the same opinion the scriptures you presented were connected to the return of Son of Man in vengeance (judgment)”
The Son of man has not come in vengeance.
Hi BT,
The Son of man will come to judge and he will cause to be slain in his presence those who refuse his lordship.Lk19Hi,
As with all 'isms' the promotors have gone in detail through the bible to see how scriptures can be seen from their light and, having established such possibilities and rationalisations strongly, defend themHi Nick
You have not come up with a scriptural answer to my inquiry so I will assume you don’t have one. So here it is again Nick! I added a minor difference to the question to avoid a short response.
Matt 26:63 But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest said to Him, “I adjure You by the living God, that You tell us whether You are the Christ, the Son of God.”
64 Jesus said to him, “You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter you will see THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN.”
Question Nick how was Caiaphas going to see the Son of Man coming on clouds of heaven.
BT
Hi BT,
Of course Caiaphas will be resurrected as with all men and they will see the one they pierced
and they will mourn.Hi Nick
Well said Nick, but the coming of Christ on clouds takes place before the resurrection in your understanding. Nevertheless, the ones who will see it would have to be resurrected with a physical body to witness the event from earth. Also, I'm taking for granted Christ will return in your estimation with a glorified Physical body one earth. Furthermore, that you consider it following the arrival at some point Caiaphas will see Him. In addition, will know Jesus is the Son of God.
Matt 16:27 “For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and WILL THEN REPAY EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS.
28 “Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”
I referenced these scriptures to show in my estimation that some of those who heard these words than will not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming. Maybe you can elaborate!
BT
Hi BT,
Indeed those who have already passed over from death to life[jn5]
who were standing with him joined him in his mansions [jn14]
like him and the men of old, ever alive in the Spirit.Matthew 22:32
I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.Hi BT,
Perhaps Jl 2 and Zech 12 may helpJl2
1Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;2A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.
3A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them.
4The appearance of them is as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they run.
5Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble, as a strong people set in battle array.
6Before their face the people shall be much pained: all faces shall gather blackness.
7They shall run like mighty men; they shall climb the wall like men of war; and they shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks:
8Neither shall one thrust another; they shall walk every one in his path: and when they fall upon the sword, they shall not be wounded.
9They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief.
10The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:
11And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?
12Therefore also now, saith the LORD, turn ye even to me with all your heart, and with fasting, and with weeping, and with mourning:
13And rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the LORD your God: for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repenteth him of the evil.
14Who knoweth if he will return and repent, and leave a blessing behind him; even a meat offering and a drink offering unto the LORD your God?
15Blow the trumpet in Zion, sanctify a fast, call a solemn assembly:
16Gather the people, sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts: let the bridegroom go forth of his chamber, and the bride out of her closet.
17Let the priests, the ministers of the LORD, weep between the porch and the altar, and let them say, Spare thy people, O LORD, and give not thine heritage to reproach, that the heathen should rule over them: wherefore should they say among the people, Where is their God?
18Then will the LORD be jealous for his land, and pity his people.
19Yea, the LORD will answer and say unto his people, Behold, I will send you corn, and wine, and oil, and ye shall be satisfied therewith: and I will no more make you a reproach among the heathen:
20But I will remove far off from you the northern army, and will drive him into a land barren and desolate, with his face toward the east sea, and his hinder part toward the utmost sea, and his stink shall come up, and his ill savour shall come up, because he hath done great things.
21Fear not, O land; be glad and rejoice: for the LORD will do great things.
22Be not afraid, ye beasts of the field: for the pastures of the wilderness do spring, for the tree beareth her fruit, the fig tree and the vine do yield their strength.
23Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month.
24And the floors shall be full of wheat, and the vats shall overflow with wine and oil.
25And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you.
26And ye shall eat in plenty, and be satisfied, and praise the name of the LORD your God, that hath dealt wondrously with you: and my people shall never be ashamed.
27And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.
28And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
29And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
30And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
31The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD come.
32And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.
Zech 12
7The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.8In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.
9And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
11In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
12And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;
13The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;
14All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.
Mt24
29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Hi Nick
Isa 13:9-10
9 See, the day of the Lord is coming
— a cruel day, with wrath and fierce anger —
to make the land desolate
and destroy the sinners within it.
10 The stars of heaven and their constellations
will not show their light.
The rising sun will be darkened
and the moon will not give its light.“This verse cannot be understood literally, but is a metaphorical representation of the calamities that were coming upon Babylon.”
It’s not odd of Jesus speaking via the same language as spoken in the Old Testament.
“So in Ezek 32:7-8, in a prophecy respecting the destruction of Pharaoh, king of Egypt:”
And when I shall put time out,
I will cover the heavens, and make the stoa thereof dark,
I will cover the sun with a cloud,
And the moon shall not give her light.
And the bright lights of heaven will I make dark over thee.
And set darkness upon thy land.Take the time to compare these verses Joel 2:10; 3:15-16
The destruction of the temple and the Jewish economy is what chapter Matthew 24 is all about. If we don’t understand the question the disciples asked Jesus we will never understand the answer.
Mark 13:3-4
3 As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew were questioning Him privately, 4 “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign when all these things are going to be fulfilled?”What were all these things the disciples asked about?
BT
Hi Nick
You have resorted to a cat and mouse game. I didn’t continue this debate to harm you Nick. Where Christ is there will always be freedom for one to defend the Gospel as they see it. Sometimes we are slaves of our paradigms. We should let the bible speak for itself and not say what we want it to say.
2 Tim 1:7 For God did not give us a spirit of timidity, but a spirit of power, of love and of self-discipline.
2 Cor 3: 17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
Rom 8:15 For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.”
BT Peace
Hi BT,
Can we freely define what is allegorical in scipture by what seems so to us?
Should we not let scripture speak and define itself?Hi Nick
You said: Can we freely define what is allegorical in scipture by what seems so to us? Should we not let scripture speak and define itself?
My response: Excellent thinking Nick let’s take the following scriptures and let them speak for themselves so we can examine them. Remember no allegory, spiritualizing or equivocating on these two references to get us of the hook.
Rev 1:The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant. And no reading into the text with preconceived ideas.
Rev 1:3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near.
In Revelation it is confirmed obviously that the information specified in the book must take place soon. And the prophecies within were near when it was written.
If God wanted to communicate an imminent (about to happen) timeframe how else would He have said it?
Your fellow servant BT
Hi Nick
Two days would be sooner then over 2000 years so your answer is correct. You get the next one and you get the prize!
I’ll give you some wiggle room on the next one.
Daniel is told to seal up the words he just heard by the angel because the time was a long way off.
Dan 12:4 But you, Daniel, close up and seal the words of the prophecy in the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge.”
Hundreds of years go by and John is told by an angel not to seal up the words of prophecy because the time is near.
Rev 22:10
10 Then he told me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, because the time is near.Daniel is told a long way off; John is told the time is near. So when was the prophecy given to Daniel fulfilled?
BT
Before Time… Greetings!
I see that you are still pushing the Preteristic View to the Brothers on this site. It appears that you have a death grip on that topic and will hold on to it until God’s Kingdom actually sets matters straight for you.
But “all things” were not fulfilled with the destruction of 1st Century Jerusalem by the Roman Armies as you claim. For example, look what Jesus foretold in the following Scripture:
John 5:28-29 (New American Standard Bible)
“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.”Martha made mention of this point in the following verse:
John 11:24 (New American Standard Bible)
“Martha said to Him, ‘I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.’”Do you really believe the resurrection of the dead took place in the 1st Century? Was the Destruction of Jerusalem the “last day” Jesus spoke of? If so, where are these resurrected ones? The Apostle Paul said the following:
Acts 24:14-15 (New American Standard Bible)
“But this I admit to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect I do serve the God of our fathers, believing everything that is in accordance with the Law and that is written in the Prophets; having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.”By Paul’s words, the resurrection hope was a distant hope held by Jews and those familiar with Jesus’ words.
Getting back to Daniel… and speaking, again, about the resurrection hope, see what was written for us:
Daniel 12:2 (New American Standard Bible)
“any of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.”Has this event taken place? It is said to happen at “the end time.” (Daniel 12:9-10)
The logical conclusion, BT, is that the “last day” or “the end time” has not taken place to date; hence, “all things” did not culminate in the 1st Century with the destruction of the Jewish System by the Roman armies. No, but I strongly suspect that day is much nearer than most believers expect. God bless!
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