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You are mixing the ideas from a few passages.
Philippians 2:5-7 or 8 is speaking the mind that is in Jesus Christ.
kerwin you are wrong with this and there is no problem mixing scriptures or truth, so long as the context is preserved. It is true for example that God is love. It is also true that God is light. If I mix that and say that God is love and light, then that preserves the truth.
Now to the scripture you are challenging. Here we are told to have the same attitude as Jesus Christ. That is what it means to have the same mind in yourself. It is not telling us to have the same attributes as Jesus Christ.
Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
It is like saying something to the tune of this. Have the same attitude as Ghandi. Although he was the leader of India he was humble. It doesn’t mean that we should become the leader of India, but that we should be like him and all the more because we are less in the pecking order than him, and yet he was humble.
And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.
Here we can see that he indeed has history with the Father. The longest history of all in fact.
You just do not want to believe what is written regarding the origins of Jesus Christ. And the crazy part is that I quote these very words, and you say I am wrong when all I have done is quote these words. So they are not my words that you condemn kerwin.
Hi t8,
So a being with no flesh existed in heaven and was known as Jesus Christ though that name had yet to be given?
Then , by your definition by taking on flesh he became like us, a man.
Far fetched fantasy
Hi t8,
So a being with no flesh existed in heaven and was known as Jesus Christ though that name had yet to be given?
Then , by your definition by taking on flesh he became like us, a man.
Far fetched fantasy
He existed in the form of God, emptied himself and came in the flesh. As a man, he was like us and was tempted like us and lived like us. He was called Jesus when he was born. He was the Christ. Thus when his messiahship was recognised, he was known as Jesus Christ.
No one is saying that he was called Jesus Christ before the flesh. Now that he is back with God and is called the Word of God, we also know that the Word was with God in the beginning.
It is not hard and yes the truth is far-fetched to the natural mind. That is why we need faith. To see beyond the natural. The pharisees just thought it far-fetched that Jesus was the Christ. And when he said, “before Abraham, I am”, that really offended them as it does seem to offend you, and kerwin too.
Nick, Jesus wasn’t just a man. He became a man. He existed in the form of God and obviously did not have the name Jesus till he was born as a man.
All human being come in the flesh for without the flesh we would be naked.
No problem here. But he existed in the form of God and emptied himself. You have a problem with that it seems.
We all agree that Jesus was a man, so it is not even worth debating that.
Hi T8:
Before he emptied himself and came in the flesh according to the text.
And so, can you show me by the scriptures when this happened?
Hi t8,
So he was something else and he became a man?
Scripture says he was conceived in Mary.
Do you believe this?
t8,
No problem here. But he existed in the form of God and emptied himself. You have a problem with that it seems.
We all agree that Jesus was a man, so it is not even worth debating that.
No, I have not problem with that since humanity was created in the form of God. They fell from those heights when they ate of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil but through Christ they can obtain those heights once more.
I also know that anyone that is in the form of God will empty themselves of the desire to be like God and take on the form of a servant. In addition each and every human being are made in the likeness of humanity. Some debate whether the most undeveloped are.
Paul is describing the attitude of Christ in Philippians 2:6-7.
Hi T8,
Ps 139
13f
For thou didst form my inward parts. though didst weave me in my mother’s womb.
I will give thanks to thee for I am fearfully and wonderfully made.
Wonderful are thy works and my soul knows it very well.
My frame was not hidden from Thee when I was made in secret and skilfully wrought in the depths of the earth
Thine eyes have seen my unformed substance and in Thy book they were all written.
So do you think this applies to Jesus or was he in heaven first??
t8,
I am not offended about Jesus’ words “I am {the Christ} before Abraham was made {the father of many nations} .
I obviously have a different viewpoint of them since I believe the fact Jesus was conceived in Mary prohibits him preexisting just like I am convinced the fact he is human prohibits him from being God or anything but human.
Nick has another point of view but any disagreement I have with his is on technical grounds. Some translations are more favorable to his point of view that mine.
My point of view is based on Koine Greek and the Jewish point of view.
t8,
Did it cross your mind Nick and Kerwin that Jesus Christ is the Word that was with God and later became flesh.
It is a given that Jesus Christ embodies the word that comes out of the mouth of God.
The bottom line is that I do not believe the word mentioned in John 1:1 is a being no more than I believe Wisdom is in Proverbs. It is instead a concept. Nick sees it as the Spirit, which is a intimately related concept.
I assure you that God’s word dwells in Jesus through the Spirit of God.
Hi T8:
You asked Nick:
Who, being in very nature God
Another translation says:
who, though he was in the form of God,
It seems you do not believe either translation Nick.
Do you believe that Jesus existed in the form of God or in very nature God?
I believe that the following scriptures will answer your question. He says:
John 14:
5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.Hebrews 1King James Version (KJV)
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:Hi 94,
No I think it refers to the origins of the spirit of anointing on the man Jesus.
The Word was with God And was God.
As the Spirit spoke through Jesus
“I proceeded forth and came from God”
946727…..Jesus told us that the Father was “IN” HIM, so how was he “IN” HIM? Jesus said that God was spirit, so the spirit who is God was “IN” HIM, and God And his Word are one, So the words of God “Are” Spirit and spoke through Jesus. But none of that made the man Jesus himself, the Word which is Spirit that spoke through him . Jesus is not the Word THAT SPOKE “THROUFH” HIM, that was God himself who is the word. Which is Spirit, was the one doing it.
peace and love to you and yours. ……..gene
t8,
It is like saying something to the tune of this. Have the same attitude as Ghandi. Although he was the leader of India he was humble.
That is my point except that the title Christ is the equivalent of saying “leader of …” and instead of just one word to describe the attitude Paul used most of a sentence. “who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: but made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant” all describes Jesus’ attitude.
t8,
And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.
Here we can see that he indeed has history with the Father. The longest history of all in fact.
No, not according to 2 Timothy 1:9 as it says “…but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, …” for how can anyone be given anything if they do not exist.
It is passages like these that have given birth to the belief in the preexistence of the soul. I instead see predestination and prophecy.
Hi KW,
The Word which spoke through Jesus Christ had glory with God in the beginning.
The Word even was God before being with God.
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