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AndrewAD,
What I am saying is the author of Hebrews clearly implies the pre-existence of Christ by saying he hasn’t suffered from the foundation of the world.If he didn’t exist he wouldn’t even mention pre-existence at all.
I would not have gotten that since your conclusion does not follow from your premises.
The author mentions the foundations of the world because Jesus us superior to the other high priests that sacrifice for the sins of the people on a yearly basis and human beings have been sinning from the foundations of the world.
Even Trinitarians can correct you on that despite their bias.
Terrarica,
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
1Ti 2:6 who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time.what Paul says is true but it is not related to what Christ became after his death ,for what Paul says is related to what Christ did while on earth and as such give up his life for the sins of men and through we now can receive the wish of our faith :life”
I am no expert in English though it is my native language but from what I have been taught that does not work.
Instead the comma introduces “who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time” as a relative clause. The comma tells us the translator considered it non-essential.
Kerwin,
No,you nor trinitarians can correct me and trins would agree with me anyway.You simply don’t get what I and the author of Hebrews is saying. Yes I could’ve said it better the first time but you misunderstood and I think you still do. The author of Hebrews clearly believes in Christ’s preexistence by talking about the fact that he (Jesus) would have needed to suffer often from the foundation of the world if he were merely an earthly priest 9:26.
The point being that he did preexist at the foundation of the world but not as an earthly priest.If he were an earthly priest he would have suffered from the beginning.If he didn’t exist at all at the beginning in the mind of the author there would be no point of mentioning him suffering from the foundation of the world as an earthly priest.
AndrewAD,
Are you claiming you will believe what you want to despite all evidence to the contrary?
I see no need to repeat what I said before.
Tonya,
John 17:5 only mentions Jesus possessed glory before he came to be.
It actually doesn’t say that. it doesn’t say, “came to be”. You got that from your own understanding.
John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.Now read the verse again. Jesus said: ” I had with you before the world began”
Notice the word ‘I’. It means ‘Jesus’ in this context. And we can clearly see that he had glory with the Father before the world began.
Jesus said: “Before Abraham I am”.
There goes that word “I” again.
And how do you read this?
“before he came to be.”
Your argument doesn’t make sense. I think many here can see this.
t8,
It actually doesn’t say that. it doesn’t say, “came to be”. You got that from your own understanding.
That is essentially what the word conceive means. I find it hard to believe you are not aware of that. It even tells us he was conceived in Mary as opposed to Louis Brown whom was conceived in a petre dish then implanted in her mother.
From what I see you are pro-life so it should be known to you that human life begins at conception.
Matthew 1:20New English Translation (NET Bible)
20 When he had contemplated this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife, because the child conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit.
t8,
Now read the verse again. Jesus said: ” I had with you before the world began”
I understand you believe those word implies he was present but that is not correct.
All it really states is that the glory is Jesus’ but that God has it in his possession.
I am assuming the glory he speaks of is being made emperor of all things in heaven and on earth.
Philippians 2:8-9New English Translation (NET Bible)
8
He humbled himself,
by becoming obedient to the point of death
—even death on a cross!
9
As a result God highly exalted him
and gave him the name
that is above every name,The “as a result” tells us that he was given possession of his glory the was with God before the wold began.
It was his in the same way that Jeremiah was a prophet to the nation before he was conceived.
Is this evidence Jeremiah preexisted his conception?
Jeremiah 1:5
“Before I formed you in your mother’s womb I chose you. Before you were born I set you apart. I appointed you to be a prophet to the nations.”t8,
“Before Abraham I am”.
It bad English Grammar.
John 8:58 is a vague passage that is sometimes translated in the context of the words of the unbelievers in the previous verses.
Here is one versions take on the words of the verse.
John 8:58Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
58 Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say to you, before Abraham was made, I am.
The bad grammar is due to Trinitarian translators as it could be translated as “Jesus said to them “Amen, Amen, I say to you, I have been before Abraham was made”. It could also be written as “Jesus said to them “Amen, Amen, I say to you, I am before Abraham is to become” but tradition favors the earlier translation.
The question is what was Abraham made or what will he become.
If you take in context the words of the Jews in verse 57 and ignore those of Jesus in 56 then the subjects is Abraham’s birth. If you assume that then either Jesus is saying he was born before Abraham was born or he existed before Abraham was born. Either of these conclusion contradict the words of Jesus in verse 56 as it is said Abraham “rejoiced that he might see my day” which implies Jesus’ day was after his birth. The unbelievers in verse 57 misinterpreted Jesus’ words to say his day started in the time of Abraham instead of Abraham seeing the day of Jesus through prophecy.
Jesus might have been referencing the words of Genesis 17:5 where God declares he made Abraham a father of many nations. This interpretation also goes with other verses in the conversations including Jesus’ words in verse 37. For that reason it is the strongest argument and does not contradict other of Jesus’ words. It is also not based on the words of unbelievers.
Hi t8,
The Spirit spoke through the vessel Jesus.
Yes the Spirit of Christ was far before Abraham.
In the beginning the Word was with God and was God.
Kerwin
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
1Ti 2:6 who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time.what Paul says is absolutely the truth ,but you are not understand what he said if you consider all Paul teachings ; what Paul says it is the the “son of man ” that give up his life not the “son of God ” the son of God can not die for he his a spirit being ,this is also why Jesus the man will never do this sacrifice again ,those that reject him reject life itself,
Paul letters are consistent with all scriptures truth but to some are hard to understand as Peter says
kerwin
before you give your personal opinion could you answer all and everyone of the scriptures that t8 gives in his OP
then we will see if you know something or nothing ,
thank
Hear hear!
Hi t8,
The Spirit spoke through the vessel Jesus.
What exactly is this vessel comprised of?
Body, soul, flesh? Body only? What?
That is essentially what the word conceive means. I find it hard to believe you are not aware of that.
There is no argument with me that the Word became flesh or that Jesus came in the flesh.
But where is the word conceive in the following scripture then? Do we ignore this scripture because it doesn’t fit your view?
John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.From what I see you are pro-life so it should be known to you that human life begins at conception.
All physical things have a beginning of course. But that is the shell. It is not life. Not the eternal life that was with the Father.
Don’t mix physical and spirit. Is it beyong God’s power to send someone that is with him to partake in flesh for our sakes?
Did Jesus come in the flesh. If so, then what exactly is Jesus if he has flesh?
Hi t8,
Paul said
“we have this treasure in earthen vessels”
He was speaking to those on earth in their old bodies.
That body is changed later.
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