Preexistence

[journey42]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 26 2014,10:35)

Nick, Tell my why God, speaking through Jesus, would tell everyone that He existed before Abraham did. I mean, who WOULDN'T know such a thing already?

Hi Mike

You've asked Nick this so many times and I see he cannot answer.

I'll answer instead.

The reason why Jesus told them he existed before Abraham is because “The Word” was speaking. Jesus is that same Word that became flesh. He was with God, and before creation he was God.

[terraricca]

Quote (journey42 @ May 26 2014,18:48)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 26 2014,10:35) Nick, Tell my why God, speaking through Jesus, would tell everyone that He existed before Abraham did. I mean, who WOULDN'T know such a thing already? Hi Mike You've asked Nick this so many times and I see he cannot answer. I'll answer instead. The reason why Jesus told them he existed before Abraham is because  “The Word” was speaking.    Jesus is that same Word that became flesh.  He was with God, and before creation he was God.

j42

if Jesus is the WORD OF GOD after he was created ,and so separated from the father ,tell me HOW COULD HE BE POSSIBLY BE GOD HIS FATHER BEFORE HE WAS CREATED

ARE YOU YOUR FATHER BEFORE YOU CAME ALONG i HOPE NOT ,I AM NOT MY FATHER

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (terraricca @ May 26 2014,02:32)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 25 2014,19:54) wakeup………God was “in” the “MAN” Jesus, by the Spirit of the ” ANOTING” that is why the “MAN” is called the “CHRIST OF GOD”. It was not Jesus who said destroy this “TEMPLE” and in three days I shall raise it up that was God the Father speaking directly through  Jesus' mouth. Your making Jesus a man, the anointing that was in him, you simply do not believe that God the Father was truly “IN” Jesus by the ” anointing ” spirit he received at the Jordan river, as i have said you have bought into the biggest lie fostered on humanity, that Jesus is a God, and Preexisted his berth on this earth. your doing exactly what Satan wants wakeup, he wants you to not see Jesus as a fellow human being a fellow human who God perfected and as put all things under his feet, it was and is God's will and purpose that “ALL THINGS” are put under the foot of “MAN”, in that he says “ALL THINGS” therefore, THERE IS “NOTHING” that is not under the foot of “MAN”, (Heb 2:7-8) every one needs to read it and think about is being said there.   Satan hates those scriptures and so does his followers, those of the synagogues of Satan. peace and love to you and yours…………….gene g not in but with

Terrica….So what did Jesus himself say?

Joh 14:10 …> believest you not that I am in the Father, and the Father “IN” me ? the words that I speak unto you I speak not “OF MYSELF”; but the Father that dwells “IN ME” , he does the works. (11) Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father “IN ME”: or else believe me for the very works sake.

I could show many scripture like Joh 17:21, Joh 10:38, and more, but Perrier, what good will it do ?

peace and love to you and yours……………gene

[terraricca]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 26 2014,20:12)

Quote (terraricca @ May 26 2014,02:32) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 25 2014,19:54) wakeup………God was “in” the “MAN” Jesus, by the Spirit of the ” ANOTING” that is why the “MAN” is called the “CHRIST OF GOD”. It was not Jesus who said destroy this “TEMPLE” and in three days I shall raise it up that was God the Father speaking directly through  Jesus' mouth. Your making Jesus a man, the anointing that was in him, you simply do not believe that God the Father was truly “IN” Jesus by the ” anointing ” spirit he received at the Jordan river, as i have said you have bought into the biggest lie fostered on humanity, that Jesus is a God, and Preexisted his berth on this earth. your doing exactly what Satan wants wakeup, he wants you to not see Jesus as a fellow human being a fellow human who God perfected and as put all things under his feet, it was and is God's will and purpose that “ALL THINGS” are put under the foot of “MAN”, in that he says “ALL THINGS” therefore, THERE IS “NOTHING” that is not under the foot of “MAN”, (Heb 2:7-8) every one needs to read it and think about is being said there.   Satan hates those scriptures and so does his followers, those of the synagogues of Satan. peace and love to you and yours…………….gene g not in but with Terrica….So what did Jesus himself say? Joh 14:10 …> believest you not that I am in the Father, and the Father “IN” me ? the words that I speak unto you I speak not “OF MYSELF”; but the Father that dwells “IN ME” , he does the works. (11) Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father “IN ME”: or else believe me for the very works sake. I could show many scripture like Joh 17:21, Joh 10:38, and more, but Perrier, what good will it ? peace and love to you and yours……………gene

gene

when it says”in ” it does not mean that Christ lives or is physically inside of God his father ,

it is like we should all be “one ” with God this does not mean that we now be all part of God in a physical way but align with his ways and will,

many scriptures lead us to this understanding ;

[GeneBalthrop]

Terrica…..So who is talking about “PHYSICAL THINGS ? God is a Spirit, and can INDWELL physical beings. Your problem seems to be, you do not know what spirit really is nor what it can do. God the Father was truly in Jesus, and even spoke directly through the HUMAN BEING, Jesus, by the Spirit he was “ANOINTED” with, at the time of his baptism in the Jordan river.

peace and love to you and yours………………gene

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 26 2014,11:15)

Hi MB, The Spirit of Christ in and of the Spirit of God informed men But the natural minded ones can never grasp his words

Nick…..True brother. Those who have the Spirit know the sound of the Spirit when they hear it.

peace and love to you and yours………….gene

[terraricca]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 26 2014,20:49)

Terrica…..So who is talking about “PHYSICAL THINGS ? God is a Spirit, and can INDWELL physical beings. Your problem  seems to be, you do not know what spirit really is nor what it can do. God the Father was truly in Jesus, and even spoke directly through the HUMAN BEING, Jesus, by the Spirit he was “ANOINTED” with, at the time of his baptism in the Jordan river. peace and love to you and yours………………gene

gene

Jesus says that what he says HE HEARD IT FROM HIS FATHER AND SO REPEAT IT TO HIS DISCIPLES ;

YOU ARE STILL WRONG ;

AND GOD IS A SPIRIT BEING ;AND SO NO ONE IS PART OF HIS PERSONAL BEING ,GOT THIS SONNY

[mikeboll64]

Quote (gadam123 @ May 25 2014,23:52)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 26 2014,05:13) John 6:38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my will, but to do the will of him who sent me. Jesus himself said these words…… and the words aren't hard to understand. I believe those words of Jesus, Adam.  Do you? I am aware of these verses brother Mike. But how to understand Jesus' personality if he was born as baby and need to learn every thing like any other human being. I am not able digest such contradictory statements if he was pre-existing as sentient being he did not need to learn any thing or to be perfected as mentioned in Heb 4 & 5.

Hi Adam,

That is a fair question, which has an unbelievably easy answer:  THERE ARE MANY UNKNOWNS IN SCRIPTURE.

For example:

Exodus 4
24 At a lodging place on the way, the LORD met Moses and was about to kill him.

25 But Zipporah took a flint knife, cut off her son’s foreskin and touched Moses’ feet with it. “Surely you are a bridegroom of blood to me,” she said.

26 So the LORD let him alone.

Why was Jehovah about to kill Moses?  What had Moses done?  And how did touching Moses' feet with his son's foreskin change Jehovah's mind?

The point is that we can't just take it upon ourselves to decide that the events of Ex 4:24-26 didn't happen – solely because we don't know WHY or HOW they happened.

It is the same with John 6:38, Adam.  In that verse, Jesus CLEARLY states that he came down from heaven.  The Jews to who he said these words wondered how this man they all knew could say such a ridiculous thing.  Then Jesus went on to hint that some of them would also see him ascend BACK to heaven.  And then, as we know, some of them actually DID see him ascend “to where he was before”.

So these are the concrete things.  We cannot take it upon ourselves to decide these things didn't happen, just because we don't know the WHYs and HOWs of it all.

My theory about why Jesus had to learn and become perfected stems from Phil 2:6.  Jesus was existing in the form of God, but then EMPTIED HIMSELF and was made in the likeness of a human being.

I assume that when he EMPTIED HIMSELF, he was completely void of that old life style, his memories, his former glorious position…….. everything.  Completely EMPTY of who he used to be.

I assume that, although he was led by the Holy Spirit throughout his whole earthly life, he lived for 30 years without the memories of his past glorious life.

And I assume he was led to John the Baptist at the urging of the Spirit – although he had no conscious knowledge of why he had to go see John.  He only knew (from the Spirit) that he must be baptized by John “to fulfill all righteousness”.  He didn't know what that meant – only that this was what the Spirit had told him.  So he repeated those words to John.

And I assume that once John baptized him, the heavens opened up, God spoke, the Spirit came upon him IN FULL – and he received the memories of old that he had emptied himself of.

I assume that from that time forward, Jesus once again knew who he really was, where he had come from, why he was on earth in the first place, and what needed to be done.

Now, you don't have to agree with my interpretation of these things, but I urge you to not go deciding for yourself to ignore certain CLEAR scriptures, like John 6:38 – just because we haven't been told all the HOWs and WHYs of everything.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (gadam123 @ May 26 2014,05:54)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 26 2014,04:19) Quote (gadam123 @ May 25 2014,00:55) …….what kind of human that Jesus can be if he was pre-existing prior to his birth? Can he be real human like you and me who are born with Adamic nature likely to be tempted and possibility of sinning? Adam, God can make children of Abraham out of stones.  If God did so, would it matter that those children used to be something else before? After all, Adam himself was nothing but dust before God formed him into a man, right? I guess my point is:  If God decides to make a human being, does it really matter what that human being used to be?  Dust of the earth, natural elements, stones, a spirit being in heaven? I say no.  Because if the end result is a human being, then the end result is a human being, right? (1) God can not act against his own nature… (2) here Spirit of Christ is his(God's) own Spirit as per few members in this forum.

(1) How would causing an existing spirit being to be born as a flesh being be “acting against God's own nature”?

(2) To me, the “spirit of Christ” is simply Jesus the Anointed's spirit. It is the spirit of the person we know as “Jesus the Christ (Anointed One). Just like your spirit could be called “the spirit of Adam”, and mine could be called “the spirit of Mike”.

Are there scriptures that would prove something different than that?

That being said, we know, of course, that all spirits are “of God”. Even “the spirit of Adam” and “the spirit of Mike”. For God is the Father of ALL spirits, right? But why would God's own personal Spirit be called “The Spirit of the Anointed“? Who is it that “anointed” God?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (journey42 @ May 26 2014,06:48)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 26 2014,10:35) Nick, Tell my why God, speaking through Jesus, would tell everyone that He existed before Abraham did. I mean, who WOULDN'T know such a thing already? Hi Mike You've asked Nick this so many times and I see he cannot answer. I'll answer instead. The reason why Jesus told them he existed before Abraham is because  “The Word” was speaking.    Jesus is that same Word that became flesh.  He was with God, and before creation he was God.

Hi journey,

It was actually Pierre's point.  I was just the hound dog that kept after Nick about it.  

And while I appreciate your direct answer to the question, your answer still leaves things a little messed up.  Here are the events of John 8 – according to what you said:

1.  Jesus spoke about Abraham.

2.  The Jews asked Jesus how he could know Abraham, since he wasn't even 50 years old.

3.  The Word – who used to be God Himself – spoke THROUGH Jesus, and said he (the Word/God Himself) had existed before Abraham did.

4.  The Jews, naturally assuming it was Jesus who made this claim (since the words DID come out of Jesus' mouth), picked up stones to kill Jesus.

5.  Jesus then told them that he was God's Son, whom God set apart as His very own and sent into the world.

6.  Jesus then asked the Jews how they could accuse him of blasphemy by saying he was God's Son.

It doesn't add up, journey.  Why would Jesus allow the Jews (AND his disciples who were also there) to believe he is the one who said the words, when he could have just told them that The Word/God Himself spoke those words about Abraham THROUGH his mouth?

Why would the question of “blasphemy” even come up based on The Word/God Himself saying He existed before Abraham did?

And – back to Pierre's original point – even IF anyone was able to discern that it was The Word/God Himself who spoke those words THROUGH Jesus – WHY would God speak those words?

I mean, who in their right mind didn't already KNOW that God existed before Abraham existed?  Why would The Word/God Himself need to tell this fact to people?

Now please indulge me while I tell you MY understanding of those words in John 8:

1.  Jesus IS the very being who existed in the form of God before being made in the likeness of a human being.  (Phil 2)

2.  Jesus IS the Word (spokesman of God) who became flesh and dwelled on earth with the glory of God's only begotten Son.  (John 1)  

[NickHassan]

Hi MB,
No the word was with God and was God.
The Spirit of Christ is of the eternal Spirit of God.
The Spirit spoke the truth through the servant vessel

[terraricca]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 26 2014,23:48)

Hi MB, No the word was with God and was God. The Spirit of Christ is of the eternal Spirit of God.  The Spirit spoke the truth through the servant vessel

NICK

STILL STUCK ON RELIGION ,CAN';T PAST THE FALSE RELIGION ,

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 26 2014,11:48)

Hi MB, No the word was with God and was God. The Spirit of Christ is of the eternal Spirit of God.  The Spirit spoke the truth through the servant vessel

No Nick,

“God” was never said to have been with “God”.  The entire idea is ludicrous, and came about from Trinitarian translators who knew the Word in John 1 was Jesus, but wanted to teach people that Jesus was also “God”.

You have fallen for their ploy.

Remember that the Coptic translation says, “and the Word was a god”.  And remember that the Coptic language was the first language into which the NT was translated that used an indefinite article like English does.

That means that the very first time someone had a chance to translate John 1:1 as “the Word was a god“ – they did it.

There are scriptures like Revelation 19:13 that support the fact that “The Word” is Jesus.  And there are scriptures like Isaiah 9:6 and Hebrews 1:8 that support the fact that Jesus is “a god”.

You can either believe those teachings……. or continue to not believe them because of the word “conceived”.

Nor have I seen any scripture that supports your claim that God has an eternal spirit called “The Spirit of the Anointed One”.

As for your last claim, you have yet to answer Pierre's point, to which I've added………

1.  How was anyone in their right mind supposed to just discern that an eternal spirit of God said the words of John 8:58?

2.  WHY would it be necessary for this eternal spirit of God to even bother to say he existed before Abraham did?

[NickHassan]

Hi MB,
Yes the verse is indigestible to you.
The Spirit of Christ is the Spirit of anointing.

Scripture calls men gods[Jn 10.38] Have they been in heaven?

Should you judge the works of God by the logic based standards of men?

His words are light and truth.

Light forces a response from men
and those who could not accept his words instead killed him.

Try to grasp the truth

[terraricca]

NICK

Quote

The Spirit of Christ is the Spirit of anointing.

why are you repeating those words they mean the same thing ; Christ means anointing,

the fact that men are called gods does not make them to be in heaven you have heavenly gods and earthly gods (god = mighty ones )

[NickHassan]

Hi MB,
Jesus was a man.
He was a creature of God.

[NickHassan]

Hi MB,
You forgot to answer this so I will repeat it.
Mk 1
23 And there was in their synagogue a man with an unclean spirit; and he cried out,

24 Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God.

25 And Jesus rebuked him, saying, Hold thy peace, and come out of him.

26 And when the unclean spirit had torn him, and cried with a loud voice, he came out of him.

27 And they were all amazed, insomuch that they questioned among themselves, saying, What thing is this? what new doctrine is this? for with authority commandeth he even the unclean spirits, and they do obey him.

Who cried out to Jesus?

[NickHassan]

Hi MB,
You say
“(2) To me, the “spirit of Christ” is simply Jesus the Anointed's spirit. It is the spirit of the person we know as “Jesus the Christ (Anointed One). Just like your spirit could be called “the spirit of Adam”, and mine could be called “the spirit of Mike”.”

So what does Rom 8 mean when it says

“if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ he does not belong to Christ”

[GeneBalthrop]

Nick……… Another way of saying it it this way “he that does not have the Spirit of the  CHRISTOS (anointing ) Spirit does not belong to the ANOINTING Spirit.  It's just that simple, that is how we are in, God and Jesus, and they are in us, by that same ANOINTING SPIRIT we received, as did also the ” MAN” Jesus who is called “THE ANOINTED” OR the “CHRISTOS” of GOD. All who have the Holy Spirit are also CHRISTS, or ANOINTED ones of God too. IMO

This all goes right over their heads Nick they have not a clue it seems.

Peace and love to you and yours………………gene

[terraricca]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 27 2014,01:56)

Hi MB, You say “(2)  To me, the “spirit of Christ” is simply Jesus the Anointed's spirit.  It is the spirit of the person we know as “Jesus the Christ (Anointed One).  Just like your spirit could be called “the spirit of Adam”, and mine could be called “the spirit of Mike”.” So what does Rom 8 mean when it says “if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ he does not belong to Christ”

n

Ro 8:1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,
Ro 8:2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.
Ro 8:3 For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man,

in Christ ,meaning to follow Christ foot steps by obeying to his teachings

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