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I’m not being critical, but John 1:1-14 clearly speaks of Jesus being the Word who was God and with God and that all things were made by him and for himself…unless the Word was the son I don’t see how you can make that connection! It was that very word that became flesh (the son of God) ..I don’t see scripture to support that the Word was the son
John 1:1-4 doesn’t say that the son was with God but that the Word was with God. And speaking of the son, we are told that he existed in the FORM of God, emptied himself, came in the flesh, died, rose again, and is at the right-hand side of God in the glory that he had with him before the world began. And back in John, we are told, that the Word became flesh.
Further, we are taught that God created the world through his Word, and he also created everything through the son.Pre-existence used to be the pet topic of Sis Mandy and is the one who started this longest topic after Trinity. I don't know where she is now. 'Did Jesus pre-exist his birth?' is quite fascinating to me. Our NT is quite ambiguous on this subject. Here we are talking about man Jesus- was he somebody prior to his birth as human being on this earth? Most of the members opted for 'yes' he was somebody in fact second person of Trinity and was with God the Father. Fourth Gospel few occasions mentions that Jesus came down from heaven. St Paul states that he is the first born of(over) all creation in Col 1:15. Rev 3:14 states that Jesus is the beginning of God's creation. Unitarianism completely ignores and misinterpret these verses. I appreciate our friends if they can through some light with a neutral mind and understanding or unbiased.
Hello brother Nick, I appreciate your response I want you to elaborate what you believe and not a single quotations.
Hi gadam,
Perhaps others should contribute?But remember scripture says he was a man, he was conceived, he was anointed with the Holy Spirit and power.
Not a god or a sentient being with a headstart over us.
Those are the ideas of the lost
We can follow himQuote (Nick Hassan @ May 24 2014,20:45) Hi gadam,
Perhaps others should contribute?But remember scripture says he was a man, he was conceived, he was anointed with the Holy Spirit and power.
Not a god or a sentient being with a headstart over us.
Those are the ideas of the lost
We can follow him
I really appreciate that and I see more broad mind in my brother…hope others contribute in this regard.gadam123
here are some of the scriptures to support preexistance of christ ;
These scriptures that teach the pre-existence of Jesus have been compiled by Irene (Baker), Pierre (Terrarica), Wm (Seeking Truth), Mike (mikeboll64) and t8.
There are currently 48 scriptures or passages listed.
Proverbs 8:22-31 NIV
22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works,
before his deeds of old;
23 I was formed long ages ago,
at the very beginning, when the world came to be.
24 When there were no watery depths, I was given birth,
when there were no springs overflowing with water;
25 before the mountains were settled in place,
before the hills, I was given birth,
26 before he made the world or its fields
or any of the dust of the earth.
27 I was there when he set the heavens in place,
when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
28 when he established the clouds above
and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
29 when he gave the sea its boundary
so the waters would not overstep his command,
and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
30 Then I was constantly at his side.
I was filled with delight day after day,
rejoicing always in his presence,
31 rejoicing in his whole world
and delighting in mankind.Proverbs 30:4 NIV
4 Who has gone up to heaven and come down?
Whose hands have gathered up the wind?
Who has wrapped up the waters in a cloak?
Who has established all the ends of the earth?
What is his name, and what is the name of his son?
Surely you know!Micah 5:2 NIV
2 “But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
though you are small among the clans of Judah,
out of you will come for me
one who will be ruler over Israel,
whose origins are from of old,
from ancient times.”Isaiah 11:1 NIV
A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse; from his roots a Branch will bear fruit.Isaiah 11:10 NIV
In that day the Root of Jesse will stand as a banner for the peoples; the nations will rally to him, and his place of rest will be glorious.Matthew 22:41-46 NIV
41While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, 42″What do you think about the Christ? Whose son is he?”
“The son of David,” they replied.
43He said to them, “How is it then that David, speaking by the Spirit, calls him 'Lord'? For he says,
44″ 'The Lord said to my Lord:
“Sit at my right hand
until I put your enemies
under your feet.” ' 45If then David calls him 'Lord,' how can he be his son?” 46No one could say a word in reply, and from that day on no one dared to ask him any more questions.John 1:1-3 NWT
In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. 2 This one was in [the] beginning with God. 3 All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence.John 1:9-12 NIV
9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—John 1:14 NIV
14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the only begotten, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.John 1:15 NWT
15 (John bore witness about him, yes, he actually cried out—this was the one who said [it]—saying: “The one coming behind me has advanced in front of me, because he existed before me.”)John 3:13 NIV
13No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.John 3:16-19 NIV
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.John 5:19-20 NIV
19 Jesus gave them this answer: “Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. 20 For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, and he will show him even greater works than these, so that you will be amazed.John 6:32-33 NIV
32 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is the bread that comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”John 6:35 NIV
35 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty.John 6:38 NIV
38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.John 6:41-42 NIV
41 At this the Jews there began to grumble about him because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 They said, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, ‘I came down from heaven’?”John 6:46 NIV
No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.John 6:48-51 NIV
48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died. 50 But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”John 6:62 NIV
62What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before!John 8:12 NIV
When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”John 8:23 NIV
23 But he continued, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.John 8:38 NIV
38 I am telling you what I have seen in the Father’s presence, and you are doing what you have heard from your father.”John 8:42 NET
Jesus replied, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come from God and am now here. I have not come on my own initiative, but he sent me.”John 8:58 NWT
58 Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to YOU, Before Abraham came into existence, I have been.”John 9:5 NIV
While I am in the world, I am the light of the world.”John 16:28 NIV
“I came from the Father and entered the world; now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father.”John 17:5 NRSV
So now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had in your presence before the world existed.Romans 1:3 NIV
regarding his Son, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David,Romans 8:3 NIV
For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering.Romans 9:5 NASB
whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.1 Corinthians 8:6 NIV
6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all
things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.1 Corinthians 10:3-4 NIV
3They all ate the same spiritual food 4and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.1 Corinthians 11:3 NIV
3 But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man,[a] and the head of Christ is God.1 Corinthians 15:47 NIV
47The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven.Galatians 4:4-5 NIV
4But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law, 5to redeem those under law, that we might receive the full rights of sons.Philippians 2:6-8 NIV
6Who, being in the form of God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7but made himself nothing,
taking the form of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross!Colossians 1:15-17 NIV
15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.1 Timothy 3:16 NWT
16 Indeed, the sacred secret of this godly devotion is admittedly great: ‘He was made manifest in flesh, was declared righteous in spirit, appeared to angels, was preached about among nations, was believed upon in [the] world, was received up in glory.’Hebrews 1:1-2 NIV
1In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.Hebrews 1:10 NIV
10He also says,
“In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.Hebrews 2:14 NIV
Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil—Hebrews 10:5 NIV
5 Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said:“Sacrifice and offering you did not desire,
but a body you prepared for me;1 John 1:1 NIV
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life.1 John 2:12-13 NIV
12I write to you, dear children,
because your sins have been forgiven on account of his name.
13I write to you, fathers,
because you have known him who is from the beginning.Jude 1:25 NIV
25 to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.Revelation 3:14 NWT
14 “And to the angel of the congregation in La‧o‧di‧ce′a write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God,Revelation 22:16 NIV
“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”gadam123
it would be good for you to visit the topic 'preexisting 1' and follow the discussion there and #2
Gadam 123.
I really believe that I can have a healthy dialogue with you.
And will will spend my time.God we know; is from ever lasting.
Therefore His Word is also from everlasting.
John Says: In the beginning was the Word.
And the Word Was with God And the Word was God.
This has been the confusing part in this world.How can the Word be God: and with God.
Notice: john said in the beginning.
But God had no beginning.
The beginning is the beginning of all creation.Now we go to before the beginning.
Before the beginning there was God And his Word in Him.
His ability to speak.(we all have our word in us,and is us).
Before God started creating;He brought forth out of Himself His Word,and gave him a form. And He is now with God.
He is a living word,that speaks for God.on His behalf.God's Word spoke all things into existence.
That same Word was made flesh,through his birth on earth.
Now only was He called Jesus.When John said; and the Word was God.
That was when the Word was still in God.
There was non else in existence but God,
before the beginning.I hope I have made it clear enough for you to understand.
wakeup.
wakeup…..you are believing exactly what Satan wants you to believe, one that Jesus preexisted his berth as a sentinel being, and two that he was a God and different then the rest of humanity. you do not believe Jesus had his beginning as a ordinary human being, an ordinary human being who was from the loins of king David, an ordinary human being prophesied to be the Messiah (anointed “MAN” ).
Trust me wakeup, you have taken Satan's Big LIE, hook line and sinker, his DOCTRINE OF SEPARATION . The belief that the “MAN” Jesus, was not an ordinary human being, who was anointed by God, at the Jordan river, where he received his anointing or “CHRISTOS”, have bought into Satan's big lie and have the spirit (intellect) of ANTICHRIST or ANTI-“ANOINTING” .
peace and love to you and yours………………gene
Gadam…….I see it like brother Nick , i believe Jesus came into existence as a ordinary human being just as we did, a ordinary human being who God chose to be the first human to become perfected and be resurrected back to life from the grave from humanity and enter the kingdom of God and inherit eternal life.
peace and love to you and yours Adam…………………gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 25 2014,02:39) wakeup…..you are believing exactly what Satan wants you to believe, one that Jesus preexisted his berth as a sentinel being, and two that he was a God and different then the rest of humanity. you do not believe Jesus had his beginning as a ordinary human being, an ordinary human being who was from the loins of king David, an ordinary human being prophesied to be the Messiah (anointed “MAN” ). Trust me wakeup, you have taken Satan's Big LIE, hook line and sinker, his DOCTRINE OF SEPARATION . The belief that the “MAN” Jesus, was not an ordinary human being, who was anointed by God, at the Jordan river, where he received his anointing or “CHRISTOS”, have bought into Satan's big lie and have the spirit (intellect) of ANTICHRIST or ANTI-“ANOINTING” .
peace and love to you and yours………………gene
GeneB.Do you really believe that the Word of God is only
2014 years old?Jesus said: before Abraham was; I AM.
He also said: that He came from heaven; not of the womb of Mary.John said: in the beginning the word was.
He was spirit turned into flesh. That spirit was, before made flesh.Jesus was that spirit; in the flesh. He just changed his appearance; but the same spirit; the creating spirit.
One can appear in a blue robe one day, and the next can appear in a red robe;but still the same person.The universe and all the angels are of old.
And it is Jesus that created all things.When He was yet spirit.
How can he be 2014 years old?There is no other creature beside God.
Beside me there is no god.The *LambandGod* on the throne; is worshipped by all creatures in heaven and on the earth and in the sea.
Because the Lamb is the word of God himself.
There is only one *GodandhisWord* *GodWord*
There is none else beside God. Just as *Godlove*
God is love,they are not seperate.wakeup.
Quote (Wakeup @ May 25 2014,05:55) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 25 2014,02:39) wakeup…..you are believing exactly what Satan wants you to believe, one that Jesus preexisted his berth as a sentinel being, and two that he was a God and different then the rest of humanity. you do not believe Jesus had his beginning as a ordinary human being, an ordinary human being who was from the loins of king David, an ordinary human being prophesied to be the Messiah (anointed “MAN” ). Trust me wakeup, you have taken Satan's Big LIE, hook line and sinker, his DOCTRINE OF SEPARATION . The belief that the “MAN” Jesus, was not an ordinary human being, who was anointed by God, at the Jordan river, where he received his anointing or “CHRISTOS”, have bought into Satan's big lie and have the spirit (intellect) of ANTICHRIST or ANTI-“ANOINTING” .
peace and love to you and yours………………gene
GeneB.Do you really believe that the Word of God is only
2014 years old?Jesus said: before Abraham was; I AM.
He also said: that He came from heaven; not of the womb of Mary.John said: in the beginning the word was.
He was spirit turned into flesh. That spirit was, before made flesh.Jesus was that spirit; in the flesh. He just changed his appearance; but the same spirit; the creating spirit.
One can appear in a blue robe one day, and the next can appear in a red robe;but still the same person.The universe and all the angels are of old.
And it is Jesus that created all things.When He was yet spirit.
How can he be 2014 years old?There is no other creature beside God.
Beside me there is no god.The *LambandGod* on the throne; is worshipped by all creatures in heaven and on the earth and in the sea.
Because the Lamb is the word of God himself.
There is only one *GodandhisWord* *GodWord*
There is none else beside God. Just as *Godlove*
God is love,they are not seperate.wakeup.
W upYou are confused , what God said is ,, that there is no other God LIKE HIM,
And that is the truth, no one can deny that, (God means almighty one )Quote (terraricca @ May 25 2014,15:23) Quote (Wakeup @ May 25 2014,05:55) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 25 2014,02:39) wakeup…..you are believing exactly what Satan wants you to believe, one that Jesus preexisted his berth as a sentinel being, and two that he was a God and different then the rest of humanity. you do not believe Jesus had his beginning as a ordinary human being, an ordinary human being who was from the loins of king David, an ordinary human being prophesied to be the Messiah (anointed “MAN” ). Trust me wakeup, you have taken Satan's Big LIE, hook line and sinker, his DOCTRINE OF SEPARATION . The belief that the “MAN” Jesus, was not an ordinary human being, who was anointed by God, at the Jordan river, where he received his anointing or “CHRISTOS”, have bought into Satan's big lie and have the spirit (intellect) of ANTICHRIST or ANTI-“ANOINTING” .
peace and love to you and yours………………gene
GeneB.Do you really believe that the Word of God is only
2014 years old?Jesus said: before Abraham was; I AM.
He also said: that He came from heaven; not of the womb of Mary.John said: in the beginning the word was.
He was spirit turned into flesh. That spirit was, before made flesh.Jesus was that spirit; in the flesh. He just changed his appearance; but the same spirit; the creating spirit.
One can appear in a blue robe one day, and the next can appear in a red robe;but still the same person.The universe and all the angels are of old.
And it is Jesus that created all things.When He was yet spirit.
How can he be 2014 years old?There is no other creature beside God.
Beside me there is no god.The *LambandGod* on the throne; is worshipped by all creatures in heaven and on the earth and in the sea.
Because the Lamb is the word of God himself.
There is only one *GodandhisWord* *GodWord*
There is none else beside God. Just as *Godlove*
God is love,they are not seperate.wakeup.
W upYou are confused , what God said is ,, that there is no other God LIKE HIM,
And that is the truth, no one can deny that, (God means almighty one )
Read my post carefully first and the respond.wakeup
Hi WU,
You say
“Jesus said: before Abraham was; I AM.
He also said: that He came from heaven; not of the womb of Mary.”Jesus CHRIST said that-more or less.
Do you know the age or the origins of the Spirit of Christ?Quote (terraricca @ May 24 2014,23:33) gadam123 it would be good for you to visit the topic 'preexisting 1' and follow the discussion there and #2
Hello Terraricca,
Thanks for your response to my post. I know about part1 of this wonderful debate which was started by Mandy. I am also aware of the verses you quoted for supporting pre-existence. My question here is- what kind of human that Jesus can be if he was pre-existing prior to his birth? Can he be real human like you and me who are born with Adamic nature likely to be tempted and possibility of sinning? How could he have been tempted and learned to humble and made perfect as mentioned in Heb 4:15 & 5:8-9?
These are few questions run in my mind when I look at this 'pre-existence'Hi MB,
You quote Jn 10.36 as evidence of a prelife anointing for Jesus33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
Sanctified yes
Anointed noYou do not seem to understand anointing by the Holy Spirit.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 25 2014,03:05) Gadam…….I see it like brother Nick , i believe Jesus came into existence as a ordinary human being just as we did, a ordinary human being who God chose to be the first human to become perfected and be resurrected back to life from the grave from humanity and enter the kingdom of God and inherit eternal life. peace and love to you and yours Adam…………………gene
Thanks for your brief but apt response to my post brother Gene…
Love to you …AdamQuote (Wakeup @ May 25 2014,00:09) Gadam 123. I really believe that I can have a healthy dialogue with you.
And will will spend my time.God we know; is from ever lasting.
Therefore His Word is also from everlasting.
John Says: In the beginning was the Word.
And the Word Was with God And the Word was God.
This has been the confusing part in this world.How can the Word be God: and with God.
Notice: john said in the beginning.
But God had no beginning.
The beginning is the beginning of all creation.Now we go to before the beginning.
Before the beginning there was God And his Word in Him.
His ability to speak.(we all have our word in us,and is us).
Before God started creating;He brought forth out of Himself His Word,and gave him a form. And He is now with God.
He is a living word,that speaks for God.on His behalf.God's Word spoke all things into existence.
That same Word was made flesh,through his birth on earth.
Now only was He called Jesus.When John said; and the Word was God.
That was when the Word was still in God.
There was non else in existence but God,
before the beginning.I hope I have made it clear enough for you to understand.
wakeup.
Thanks for your response to my post. The question here- was Jesus literally pre-existed his birth? All verses you quoted are indirect references to pre-existence. Please also refer my post to Terraricca.
Thank you
Adam
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