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Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 01 2013,06:13) Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 28 2013,03:22) Mike, This is just another case where you seem to use English differently than I do.
Kerwin,Tell me HONESTLY (I implore you in the name of Jesus Christ to answer HONESTLY) if the following comparison statement makes sense to you:
They welcomed me as if I were an NFL Hall of Famer, as if I was Michael Jackson himself.
Does it make sense? YES or NO?
Mike,I was uncertain about English use and so I checked. Barnes and others verified what I stated previously.
In your example I do assume you are at least speaking of entertainers as that is the apparent scope of the sentence.
Barnes seems to believe the scope is godly authority.
Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 28 2013,18:00) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 01 2013,05:31) Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 26 2013,23:40) You declare a person cannot have an inheritance before they are conceived. It easy enough for a human to grant an inheritance to a child that is not yet conceived.
I declare that a person can't say, “Give me the inheritance I HAD with you before I was born.”If I'm wrong, and this point is so easy for one to understand, you should have no trouble finding many instances where such language has been used in published writings, right?
Show me a couple of them.
Mike,Quote Before I formed you in the womb I knew you … Also
2 Timothy 1:9
King James Version (KJV)9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
I'm not seeing any person speaking about something THEY HAD with God before the world began.I see God speaking about how HE could know someone before they were in their mother's womb. But this is not the same as THAT PERSON knowing God before they were in their mother's womb, right?
So your first scripture doesn't even come close to addressing the point in question. The second one comes a little closer, but not much.
Note that the words “given us” can also be translated as “promised us”, or “appointed to us”. (This, in and of itself, would be the kind of weak argument YOU often use on this site.)
But also think about WHEN Paul was actually GIVEN this salvation, holy calling, and grace through Jesus Christ.
Had Paul already received salvation through Jesus Christ before Jesus Christ even dwelled on earth? Had he received this holy calling through Jesus Christ when he was watching with joy and approval as Stephen was being stoned to death? Was he operating under this grace of God when he was hunting down members of the Way to have them killed or imprisoned?
Since the answers to all of these are obviously “NO”, a reading of “promised” works better in this case.
What else ya got?
Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 28 2013,18:16) Mike, The children of Israel were also foreknown and predestined to inherit the land of Canaan.
Yep. And tell me which one of them ever said, “God, please give me now the land I HAD with you before Isaac was born.”Did any of them say that, Kerwin? YES or NO?
Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 28 2013,18:24) Mike, There are at least several types of angels.
Show me this from scripture, Kerwin. Show me that these various different beings are all called “angels” in the Hebrew or Greek languages.The English word “angel” refers to a SPIRIT “aggelos”. In the Greek, they just wrote “aggelos”, and the reader would have to decide from context whether the aggelos in question was a spirit messenger, or a human one.
If the aggelos was considered to be a spirit messenger, the English translator would render the word “aggelos” as “angel”.
Does this translation of the word “aggelos” allow us to speculate about other spirit beings that are described in scripture, and apply our English word “angel” to each of them? If so, explain to me WHY.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 28 2013,05:18) but calling an Angel a messenger in all cases is simply not true and again you are forcing the text to you your assumptions. IMO
Although I say this in English, the word angel is messenger in Hebrew.Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 28 2013,18:38) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 01 2013,06:13) Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 28 2013,03:22) Mike, This is just another case where you seem to use English differently than I do.
Kerwin,Tell me HONESTLY (I implore you in the name of Jesus Christ to answer HONESTLY) if the following comparison statement makes sense to you:
They welcomed me as if I were an NFL Hall of Famer, as if I was Michael Jackson himself.
Does it make sense? YES or NO?
Mike,I was uncertain about English use and so I checked. Barnes and others verified what I stated previously.
In your example I do assume you are at least speaking of entertainers as that is the apparent scope of the sentence.
Barnes seems to believe the scope is godly authority.
What is your HONEST “YES” or “NO” answer to the question, Kerwin?On second thought, tell me which one of the following two makes sense:
1. They welcomed me as if I was a famous recording artist, as if I was Michael Jackson himself.
2. They welcomed me as if I was a famous recording artist, as if I was Abraham Lincoln himself.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 01 2013,06:49) Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 28 2013,18:38) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 01 2013,06:13) Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 28 2013,03:22) Mike, This is just another case where you seem to use English differently than I do.
Kerwin,Tell me HONESTLY (I implore you in the name of Jesus Christ to answer HONESTLY) if the following comparison statement makes sense to you:
They welcomed me as if I were an NFL Hall of Famer, as if I was Michael Jackson himself.
Does it make sense? YES or NO?
Mike,I was uncertain about English use and so I checked. Barnes and others verified what I stated previously.
In your example I do assume you are at least speaking of entertainers as that is the apparent scope of the sentence.
Barnes seems to believe the scope is godly authority.
What is your HONEST “YES” or “NO” answer to the question, Kerwin?On second thought, tell me which one of the following two makes sense:
1. They welcomed me as if I was a famous recording artist, as if I was Michael Jackson himself.
2. They welcomed me as if I was a famous recording artist, as if I was Abraham Lincoln himself.
Mike,They both make sense as the scope of the first is at the least recording artists
All you are doing by the change of wording is widening the minimum scope of what you say. The scope to which recording artists and Abraham Lincoln belong are celebrities/public figures.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 01 2013,06:44) Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 28 2013,18:24) Mike, There are at least several types of angels.
Show me this from scripture, Kerwin. Show me that these various different beings are all called “angels” in the Hebrew or Greek languages.The English word “angel” refers to a SPIRIT “aggelos”. In the Greek, they just wrote “aggelos”, and the reader would have to decide from context whether the aggelos in question was a spirit messenger, or a human one.
If the aggelos was considered to be a spirit messenger, the English translator would render the word “aggelos” as “angel”.
Does this translation of the word “aggelos” allow us to speculate about other spirit beings that are described in scripture, and apply our English word “angel” to each of them? If so, explain to me WHY.
Mike,In the old testament we are told man is a little lower than the gods.
That scripture is translated in Hebrews that man is a little lower than the messengers.
Both are speaking of the members of the heavenly host.
Even the living creatures, Ezekiel 1:5, are superior to men.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 01 2013,06:40) Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 28 2013,18:16) Mike, The children of Israel were also foreknown and predestined to inherit the land of Canaan.
Yep. And tell me which one of them ever said, “God, please give me now the land I HAD with you before Isaac was born.”Did any of them say that, Kerwin? YES or NO?
Mike,You claim translator error on those whose bias is Jesus' preexistence.
2 Timothy 1:9
King James Version (KJV)9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
Genesis 35:12
King James Version (KJV)12 And the land which I gave Abraham and Isaac, to thee I will give it, and to thy seed after thee will I give the land.
So you argue that these were both promised to the future recipients and not actually given to them before they came into possession of them later.
The word echó is only translated to “I had” because the same translators you deem to have made an error in 2 Timothy 1:9 chose to translate it so. In Luke 19:20 they chose translated “I kept” instead.
Hypothetical translation of John 17:5.
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which (I kept) with thee before the world was.
If we examine further then I believe that we will find that the “I” part is inferred by context.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 01 2013,11:17) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 28 2013,17:24) But Only mesengers which are human Beings.
Messengers can be human beings or spirit beings, Gene. In fact, scripture speaks of things like mountains and rocks being able to witness and testify.But the only messengers that English-speaking people call “angels” are the spirit messengers of God. Jesus IS a spirit messenger of God. In fact, he is the HEAD spirit messenger of God, which is why he has the title “The Word of God”.
Mike……..Yes you can have an inheritance with Christ Jesus even if you have not yet received it. In fact if you have received it, it is no longer an inheritance but your possession. The word inheritance imply a future event not a present condition. That should be a no brainier Mike. My children have an inheritance now, it is written and legal, even though they have not yet received it.Mike produce your scripture that states Jesus is a .”spirit” now, and while you are at it produce the scripture that says Jesus' body he had after his resurrection was changed into a spirit.
Just because you want scriptures to say what in fact they do not say does not make it true Mike.
Peace and love to you and yours…………………………gene
Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 28 2013,23:09) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 01 2013,06:49)
……….tell me which one of the following two makes sense:1. They welcomed me as if I was a famous recording artist, as if I was Michael Jackson himself.
2. They welcomed me as if I was a famous recording artist, as if I was Abraham Lincoln himself.
Mike,The scope to which recording artists and Abraham Lincoln belong are celebrities/public figures.
Bingo! Thank you for confirming my point. In order for the comparison to work, the individual has to belong to “the scope” mentioned.If I say “Abraham Lincoln”, then the scope must be “celebrities/public figures”, right? Because, as you yourself just pointed out, the person mentioned MUST BELONG TO the scope, right?
So if the scope is “angels”, then the individual listed (Jesus Christ) MUST BELONG TO the scope, right?
Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 28 2013,23:28) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 01 2013,06:44) Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 28 2013,18:24) Mike, There are at least several types of angels.
Show me this from scripture, Kerwin.
Mike,In the old testament we are told man is a little lower than the gods.
That scripture is translated in Hebrews that man is a little lower than the messengers.
Both are speaking of the members of the heavenly host.
Even the living creatures, Ezekiel 1:5, are superior to men.
Are you going to show me the “several types of angels”, as attested by the scriptures? Or will you humbly and honestly say you cannot?(Perhaps you'll choose the third option: Just keep posting a bunch of things that don't even address the question – in the hope that I won't notice that you aren't addressing the question.)
Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 01 2013,00:12) Hypothetical translation of John 17:5. And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which (I kept) with thee before the world was.
Anything to keep it from meaning the most obvious thing, “I had”, huh?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 05 2013,08:15) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 01 2013,00:12) Hypothetical translation of John 17:5. And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which (I kept) with thee before the world was.
Anything to keep it from meaning the most obvious thing, “I had”, huh?
Mike,Should I not say the same about you and 2 Timothy 1:9.
2 Timothy 1:9
King James Version (KJV)9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
Kerwin,
Try this version:
2 Timothy 1:9 NLT ©
It is God who saved us and chose us to live a holy life. He did this not because we deserved it, but because that was his plan long before the world began––to show his love and kindness to us through Christ Jesus.Is it starting to make a little more sense to you now?
Let me ask you this, Kerwin:
COULD the statement, “Give to me now that thing I HAD with you before” be referring to something the speaker ACTUALLY HAD with the other person before? YES or NO? (Answer HONESTLY, Kerwin)
I take it you have no rebuttal to the other two posts, and so are humbly remaining silent instead of acknowledging your original error?
Mike……….”Could”, it be an Inheritance afforded Jesus before he ever was born. Yes or no Please.
peace and loveto you and yours…………………………………………………gene
I certainly don't think so, Gene.
Is there any other such language in scripture (or even secular writings) that quote a person asking for something HE HAD, when he really never actually HAD that thing?
Perhaps if you could find such wording in some published work, I would reconsider.
But also keep in mind that this is far from being the only scripture that speaks of the pre-existence of Jesus. John 17:5 is but one tiny piece of the picture. The other 50+ pieces must also be considered when making the decision you've asked me to make.
Would you now answer MY question?
peace,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 06 2013,08:31) Kerwin, Try this version:
2 Timothy 1:9 NLT ©
It is God who saved us and chose us to live a holy life. He did this not because we deserved it, but because that was his plan long before the world began––to show his love and kindness to us through Christ Jesus.Is it starting to make a little more sense to you now?
Let me ask you this, Kerwin:
COULD the statement, “Give to me now that thing I HAD with you before” be referring to something the speaker ACTUALLY HAD with the other person before? YES or NO? (Answer HONESTLY, Kerwin)
Mike,The context of Scripture does not allow for that understanding.
Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 07 2013,20:47) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 06 2013,08:31) COULD the statement, “Give to me now that thing I HAD with you before” be referring to something the speaker ACTUALLY HAD with the other person before? YES or NO? (Answer HONESTLY, Kerwin)
Mike,The context of Scripture does not allow for that understanding.
Then show me which scripture(s) prohibit such an understanding.
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