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Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 26 2013,09:39) Scripture also says Jesus has Angels he at his disposal…………
Jesus also had many human disciples at his disposal. Does that mean he was not a human when he was on earth?Michael, as the archangel, also has many angels at his disposal. Does that mean Michael is not an angel?
Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 26 2013,12:20) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 24 2013,13:18) Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 23 2013,23:50) Instead John 17:5 is Jesus asking for his glory that he had with Jehovah before the World began.
That's right, Kerwin. And if you ask for something you ALREADY HAD, then you are OBVIOUSLY asking for the RETURN of that something.This really isn't rocket science.
Mike,1. A man walks into a lawyers office and states give me the inheritance I had with you before I was conceived.
2. Father, give me the mansion yourself, the mansion I had with you before the world began.
3. Clerk, give me the room yourself, the room I had with you last week.
1. Doesn't work at all, because the man never HAD the inheritance before he was conceived.2. Works ONLY IF the son actually HAD possession of that mansion BEFORE the father legally GIVES it to him.
3. Works perfectly, IF you actually HAD that room last week.
Since #3 reflects the scenario I already designed for you, let's stick with that one. Gene has DIRECTLY and HONESTLY answered the question concerning Kerwin's Hotel Saga. How about you do the same?
(And yes Kerwin, it is very transparent to all of us that you don't WANT to actually answer that post, but would instead like to keep diverting attention away from it – like you've tried in this post. But I will hound you until I get an honest and DIRECT answer to the question. So please save us both a lot of time and emotion by simply answering the simple question.)
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 27 2013,05:39) If you are going to call Jesus an Angel, Produce the Scriptures to Prove it, and why are you not a JW that is what they also believe. David would be glad to here that .
Jesus and John are called angelsMalachi 3:1
1 “See, I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come,” says the LORD Almighty.Men are called angels
Haggai 1:13
13 Then Haggai, the LORD's messenger, gave this message of the LORD to the people: “I am with you,” declares the LORD.The word messenger is a translation from the word mal'ak {mal-awk'}.
That is the word for angel and it is applied to a MAN called Haggai.Now compare it with say Genesis 16:7.
The angel of the Lord found Hagar near a spring in the desert; it was the spring that is beside the road to Shur.Again the word (angel) is exactly the same word as in Haggai 1:13, mal'ak {mal-awk'}.
See how the word mal'ak is applied to both beings:
1) Angel ( mal'ak) of the Lord
2) Haggai, the LORD's messenger ( mal'ak).Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 27 2013,12:29) 1. Doesn't work at all, because the man never HAD the inheritance before he was conceived. 2. Works ONLY IF the son actually HAD possession of that mansion BEFORE the father legally GIVES it to him.
3. Works perfectly, IF you actually HAD that room last week.
Gene. Are you looking forward to the glory you had with the Father before the world began? If so, how come you never mention it.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 27 2013,04:29) Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 26 2013,12:20) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 24 2013,13:18) Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 23 2013,23:50) Instead John 17:5 is Jesus asking for his glory that he had with Jehovah before the World began.
That's right, Kerwin. And if you ask for something you ALREADY HAD, then you are OBVIOUSLY asking for the RETURN of that something.This really isn't rocket science.
Mike,1. A man walks into a lawyers office and states give me the inheritance I had with you before I was conceived.
2. Father, give me the mansion yourself, the mansion I had with you before the world began.
3. Clerk, give me the room yourself, the room I had with you last week.
1. Doesn't work at all, because the man never HAD the inheritance before he was conceived.2. Works ONLY IF the son actually HAD possession of that mansion BEFORE the father legally GIVES it to him.
3. Works perfectly, IF you actually HAD that room last week.
Since #3 reflects the scenario I already designed for you, let's stick with that one. Gene has DIRECTLY and HONESTLY answered the question concerning Kerwin's Hotel Saga. How about you do the same?
(And yes Kerwin, it is very transparent to all of us that you don't WANT to actually answer that post, but would instead like to keep diverting attention away from it – like you've tried in this post. But I will hound you until I get an honest and DIRECT answer to the question. So please save us both a lot of time and emotion by simply answering the simple question.)
Mike,You declare a person cannot have an inheritance before they are conceived. It easy enough for a human to grant an inheritance to a child that is not yet conceived. But you know that but you are used to seeing things one way.. This is like debating with someone whether or not water is wet. You most likely think the same as me so at this time further debate is probably fruitless.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 27 2013,09:21) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 26 2013,09:39) Scripture also says Jesus has Angels he at his disposal…………
Jesus also had many human disciples at his disposal. Does that mean he was not a human when he was on earth?Michael, as the archangel, also has many angels at his disposal. Does that mean Michael is not an angel?
Mike………But Michiel did never call himself a SON OF MAN, Jesus did over and over. Jesus also said he was not a spirit being as you believe all angels are.Was Jesus meaning messengers when he said he could call a legion of angels to his defense if he wanted to. Mike I agree an angel can be used as a messenger I have no problem with that , but calling an Angel a messenger in all cases is simply not true and again you are forcing the text to you your assumptions. IMO
Peace and love to you and yours……………………………gene
Mike ………….All man kind had an inheritance with God before any man was ever created it was through God's foreknowledge of us all. It was all in the plan and will of God from the very beginning. Surely you do understand that Mike.
Peace and love to you and yours……………………………gene
Quote (t8 @ Feb. 27 2013,10:04) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 27 2013,12:29) 1. Doesn't work at all, because the man never HAD the inheritance before he was conceived. 2. Works ONLY IF the son actually HAD possession of that mansion BEFORE the father legally GIVES it to him.
3. Works perfectly, IF you actually HAD that room last week.
Gene. Are you looking forward to the glory you had with the Father before the world began? If so, how come you never mention it.
T8………. YES I AM, brother. I have because i was told I am a joint heir with Jesus, and all other saints to, it was all in the plan and will of God from the very beginning of his creation if us all.Peace and love to you and yours……………………..gene
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 27 2013,04:15) Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 26 2013,12:25) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 25 2013,08:19) Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 24 2013,09:03) Gene, You welcomed me as if I was a Legislator of the U.S., as if I was President Obama himself.
Perfect example, Kerwin. Thanks!
Naturally, for the comparison to work, the individual mentioned would HAVE TO BE a part of the group mentioned.
For example, you wouldn't say, You welcomed me as if I was a Legislator of the U.S, as if I were Michael Jackson himself.
Why? Because Michael Jackson ISN'T a “Legislator of the U.S” – and so the comparison would fall flat on it's face.
And that's why Kerwin's example is perfect, because not only is President Obama a Legislator of the U.S., he is the HEAD Legislator of the U.S.
Just like Jesus is the HEAD angel of God. So Kerwin's example is a DIRECT MATCH to Paul's words.
Mike,President Obama in the Executive of the general state of the U.S. He is not a Legislator due to the separation of powers. The group is government members, not Legislators.
Hi Kerwin,The Legislator-in-Chief. (role of U.S. President in legislative process)
The State of the Union and Recommendation Clauses of Article II, Section 3 provide that the President “shall from time to time give to the Congress Information of the State of the Union, and recommend to their consideration such Measures as he shall judge necessary and expedient.” Those thirty-one words envision the President as the lead active participant in the embryonic stages of the making of laws.
Of course we know that “legislator” actually means “maker of laws”, right?
The article, found here, goes on to say:
Americans today identify the President as the Legislator-in-Chief. When presidential candidates promise, We the People listen–carefully. There is much truth to the popular recognition of the President as the Legislator-in-Chief: Ever since the New Deal, we truly have had a populist, plebiscitarian presidency. (1)
This vision of the President may seem modern, but the Constitution itself has always recognized the President as a superlegislator. The Veto Clauses of Article I, Section 7 give the President the “last word” on all legislation, absent an override by a two-thirds supermajority of both Houses of Congress. (2) The President, however, sometimes has the important “first word” on legislation, too.
The article goes on (and on and on) to explain exactly HOW the President is the “Legislator-in-Chief”. And there are many other articles that attest to the same general belief. (I do recognize your “technical” argument that the executive branch of our government is not the legislative branch. But the President of the U.S. is, without a doubt, involved in the legislative process – which makes him a “legislator” – even though he is technically a member of the executive branch of our government.)
At any rate, to a person who DOESN'T consider the President to be the “Legislator-in-Chief”, your comparison would not have worked.
The individual mentioned MUST BE part of the group mentioned for a comparison of that sort to work.
So IF you are one of those like me, who believe the President IS the head legislator, your example was spot on.
Mike,This is just another case where you seem to use English differently than I do. Barnes and others conclude that this Scripture is making the case:
Quote That the Lord Jesus is superior to an angel of God. A point Hebrews 1:4 also expresses.
Quote (t8 @ Feb. 27 2013,10:03) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 27 2013,05:39) If you are going to call Jesus an Angel, Produce the Scriptures to Prove it, and why are you not a JW that is what they also believe. David would be glad to here that .
Jesus and John are called angelsMalachi 3:1
1 “See, I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come,” says the LORD Almighty.Men are called angels
Haggai 1:13
13 Then Haggai, the LORD's messenger, gave this message of the LORD to the people: “I am with you,” declares the LORD.The word messenger is a translation from the word mal'ak {mal-awk'}.
That is the word for angel and it is applied to a MAN called Haggai.Now compare it with say Genesis 16:7.
The angel of the Lord found Hagar near a spring in the desert; it was the spring that is beside the road to Shur.Again the word (angel) is exactly the same word as in Haggai 1:13, mal'ak {mal-awk'}.
See how the word mal'ak is applied to both beings:
1) Angel ( mal'ak) of the Lord
2) Haggai, the LORD's messenger ( mal'ak).
T8…….Where it says He (God) makes his Angels Sprits and sends them forth , are we to assume that he really meant “He makes his Messengers Spirits, and Sends them forth to menister?So in you mind there exists no shuch thing as a ANGEL Class of Beings Right? , But Only mesengers which are human Beings. Does Gabrel and Michael also fit this and when Jesus said we were to be come as the Angels of Heaven that simply meant messengers right. because we all ready can be messenger or Angels right?
I really don't think you have this right brother at least as far as i can understand it anyway.
I have no problem with an Angel being a Messenger no more then if a Man is a Messenger, But as them being the same i really don't think so T8.
peace and love to you and your…………………………….gene
Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 26 2013,23:40) You declare a person cannot have an inheritance before they are conceived. It easy enough for a human to grant an inheritance to a child that is not yet conceived.
I declare that a person can't say, “Give me the inheritance I HAD with you before I was born.”If I'm wrong, and this point is so easy for one to understand, you should have no trouble finding many instances where such language has been used in published writings, right?
Show me a couple of them.
In the meantime, PLEASE answer the question contained in the Kerwin's Hotel Saga post.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 27 2013,09:18) Mike………But Michiel did never call himself a SON OF MAN, Jesus did over and over.
Correct. Jesus is a different being than Michael, and has lived through different experiences than Michael has.Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 27 2013,09:18) Jesus also said he was not a spirit being as you believe all angels are.
Correct again. After the resurrection, BEFORE Jesus was witnessed by the disciples ascending into heaven, he was not a spirit being.But 1 Cor 15:45 says he became a spirit, right? And flesh beings don't dwell in God's Kingdom, right? And Paul was eager for his earthly body to be TRANSFORMED into a glorious new body like the one Jesus NOW has, right?
Gene, you can't get the truth from only ONE scripture.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 27 2013,09:18) Mike I agree an angel can be used as a messenger I have no problem with that , but calling an Angel a messenger in all cases is simply not true……..
We can often detect, from the CONTEXT of the passage, whether the messenger being discussed is a human messenger, or a spirit messenger. When it is clear (to the English translator) that a SPIRIT messenger is meant, that translator usually uses the English word “angel”……… because an “angel” is simply a SPIRIT messenger of God, as opposed to a FLESH messenger of God.But Jesus IS a spirit messenger of God, Gene. He is NOT, like you think, the ONLY flesh human being living in God's Kingdom. Flesh cannot even enter there.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 01 2013,05:31) Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 26 2013,23:40) You declare a person cannot have an inheritance before they are conceived. It easy enough for a human to grant an inheritance to a child that is not yet conceived.
I declare that a person can't say, “Give me the inheritance I HAD with you before I was born.”If I'm wrong, and this point is so easy for one to understand, you should have no trouble finding many instances where such language has been used in published writings, right?
Show me a couple of them.
In the meantime, PLEASE answer the question contained in the Kerwin's Hotel Saga post.
Mike,Quote Before I formed you in the womb I knew you … Also
2 Timothy 1:9
King James Version (KJV)9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 27 2013,09:27) Mike ………….All man kind had an inheritance with God before any man was ever created it was through God's foreknowledge of us all.
Leviticus 20:24
But I said to you, “You will possess their land; I will give it to you as an inheritance, a land flowing with milk and honey.”Gene and Kerwin, is an “inheritance” even an inheritance before the beneficiary actually inherits it?
I know the Israelites could have looked at the land of Canaan BEFORE God actually gave it to them and said, “Check out how beautiful our inheritance is.” But they would have been speaking metaphorically, right? Because it didn't actually BECOME their inheritance until it was actually GIVEN to them, right? So they would have technically meant, “Check out how beautiful the land WE WILL SOON inherit is”, right?
That is just something for you guys to think about. The real reason I posted this scripture is so I could ask this one, simple question:
Gene and Kerwin, could any of the Israelites in Moses' day have said, “God, we are ready to cross over the Jordan. Give to us now the land WE'VE HAD since before Isaac was born.” ? YES or NO?
It is a simple question, and I expect simple and honest answers from both of you.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 27 2013,09:34) Quote (t8 @ Feb. 27 2013,10:04)
Gene. Are you looking forward to the glory you had with the Father before the world began? If so, how come you never mention it.
T8………. YES I AM, brother.
So you've already HAD glory with God before the world began, Gene? What did that feel like? And how cool was it when you watched God create the world? Surely you know these things, because you were there, right? Because the only way YOU HAD glory with God before the world began is if you WERE THERE with God before the world began.Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 28 2013,03:22) Mike, This is just another case where you seem to use English differently than I do.
Kerwin,Tell me HONESTLY (I implore you in the name of Jesus Christ to answer HONESTLY) if the following comparison statement makes sense to you:
They welcomed me as if I were an NFL Hall of Famer, as if I was Michael Jackson himself.
Does it make sense? YES or NO?
Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 28 2013,03:22) Barnes and others conclude that this Scripture is making the case: Quote That the Lord Jesus is superior to an angel of God.
And what exactly IS “an angel of God”, Kerwin? A spirit messenger of God? YES or NO?Mike,
The children of Israel were also foreknown and predestined to inherit the land of Canaan.
Genesis 12:7
King James Version (KJV)7 And the Lord appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the Lord, who appeared unto him.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 28 2013,17:24) But Only mesengers which are human Beings.
Messengers can be human beings or spirit beings, Gene. In fact, scripture speaks of things like mountains and rocks being able to witness and testify.But the only messengers that English-speaking people call “angels” are the spirit messengers of God. Jesus IS a spirit messenger of God. In fact, he is the HEAD spirit messenger of God, which is why he has the title “The Word of God”.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 01 2013,06:15) Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 28 2013,03:22) Barnes and others conclude that this Scripture is making the case: Quote That the Lord Jesus is superior to an angel of God.
And what exactly IS “an angel of God”, Kerwin? A spirit messenger of God? YES or NO?
Mike,There are at least several types of angels. The angels that are in the form of men have solid bodies. Angels were created superior to mankind, Jesus, conceived a man, was elevated above them.
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