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Quote (2besee @ Feb. 23 2013,20:58) Neither you or T can answer me.
One verse to show us simply and in plain English that Jesus was an Angel or a god.
First, you haven't asked ME the question, so how can you say I haven't answered?Second, I have already showed you the scriptures that call Jesus a god, and you have already agreed that he is called “god”.
As for the scriptures that call Jesus an angel of God, consider:
Galatians 4:14
…..you welcomed me as if I were an angel of God, as if I were Christ Jesus himself.The above scripture lists Jesus as an angel of God. And the fact that the English word “angel” refers to spirit messengers of God, of which Jesus is one, should be enough to suffice.
Quote (2besee @ Feb. 23 2013,20:58) And also, the verses that i gave you do say that Jesus is the Lord, and the Lord is the Spirit, and that there is only one Spirit, so do the maths.
None of that says the Holy Spirit of God is the Son of God, 2B. And if you believe there is literally only one spirit, then we all must be God, because we would then all be part of that same spirit, right?Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 23 2013,23:50) Instead John 17:5 is Jesus asking for his glory that he had with Jehovah before the World began.
That's right, Kerwin. And if you ask for something you ALREADY HAD, then you are OBVIOUSLY asking for the RETURN of that something.This really isn't rocket science.
Hi all,
You have got to read this:
<a href="https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:3vHkEOAfDuoJ:www.marquette.edu/maqom/bogdan2.pdf+&hl=en&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESgbzKfPwkzSHxT9JUn1s0y1p5tc_gr2tACcoag2WOagQXoNPua34_K3ZquWUeAr2Vj1JM9URd3MFnXXzurKpr
qXFWydmg_A4bdQQrdTS1fHv3z99ZxovSG9OcK56yIok4w8OeHl&sig=AHIEtbQIrjLTgNMxbpVkWrbiWVN6LcnOOA” target=”_blank”>https://docs.google.com/viewer?….6LcnOOAIt is an excellent presentation on things, including angels.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 24 2013,17:51) [
Galatians 4:14
…..you welcomed me as if I were an angel of God, as if I were Christ Jesus himself.The above scripture lists Jesus as an angel of God. And the fact that the English word “angel” refers to spirit messengers of God, of which Jesus is one, should be enough to suffice.
Mike……Can't you see you are reading all kinds of thing that is not even part of what Paul was saying there. The context is not about Jesus being an angel at all. It is about how Paul was received by those Galatians . The words (as if) Paul was one of those things, and has nothing to do with those things being connected with each other at ALL. Jesus was and is not an angel at all, No scripture say Jesus is an angel of any kind.Remember where it says “the worlds to come is “NOT” Subject unto Angels” , Jesus is no Angel he is, a Son of MAN and the Angels are subject to him, he is not one of them.
Mike your switching “context” again to force the text to say what in fact it is not even remotely driving at. IMO
Peace and Love to you and yours…………………………gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 24 2013,20:51) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 24 2013,17:51) [
Galatians 4:14
…..you welcomed me as if I were an angel of God, as if I were Christ Jesus himself.The above scripture lists Jesus as an angel of God. And the fact that the English word “angel” refers to spirit messengers of God, of which Jesus is one, should be enough to suffice.
Mike……Can't you see you are reading all kinds of thing that is not even part of what Paul was saying there. The context is not about Jesus being an angel at all. It is about how Paul was received by those Galatians . The word (as if) Paul was one of those things and has nothing to do with those things being connected with each other at ALL. Jesus was and is not an angel at all. No scripture say Jesus is an angel of any kind.Remember where it says “the world to come in “NOT” Subject unto Angels” , Jesus is no Angel he is ,a Son of MAN and the Angels are subject to him, he is not one of them.
Mike you switching context again to force the text to say what in fact it is not even remotely driving at.
Peace and Love to you and yours…………………………gene
Gene,You welcomed me as if I was a Legislator of the U.S., as if I was President Obama himself.
Hi Mike.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 24 2013,16:39)
I have never said that Jesus was “half man/half god”, yet here you are, telling me how it makes no sense.I apologize then I must of got your posts mixed up with other things that I was reading.
Quote What I claim is that Jesus was existing as a powerful spirit being (an angel). And then God caused this angel to be born out of a human woman's womb. Once born of Mary, he was indeed human. Once raised, he again became the angel he was before – only exalted to an even higher position than the one he left, and given the name above all other names. This is what John 17:5 is about, 2B. Jesus is saying he has accomplished what God sent him to accomplish, and asking God if He could now place him back in the glorious position he had previously – before the world began.
When you say that Jesus existed as a powerful angel,
Do you know which angel?k
Quote T, You didn't quote such a scripture.
I wrote “accumulates” when I meant culminates.
The bottom line is Jesus had the power to send the Spirit before his ascension but not before he went away.
So go away may only mean his death and resurrection.
do you think the comforter and the holy spirit is the same thing
if so then why did Christ give the holy spirit to his disciples in ;JN 20:22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them and *said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.
Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 24 2013,09:03) Gene, You welcomed me as if I was a Legislator of the U.S., as if I was President Obama himself.
Perfect example, Kerwin. Thanks!Naturally, for the comparison to work, the individual mentioned would HAVE TO BE a part of the group mentioned.
For example, you wouldn't say, You welcomed me as if I was a Legislator of the U.S, as if I were Michael Jackson himself.
Why? Because Michael Jackson ISN'T a “Legislator of the U.S” – and so the comparison would fall flat on it's face.
And that's why Kerwin's example is perfect, because not only is President Obama a Legislator of the U.S., he is the HEAD Legislator of the U.S.
Just like Jesus is the HEAD angel of God. So Kerwin's example is a DIRECT MATCH to Paul's words.
For once, Gene and I agree: Well put, brother Kerwin!
Quote (2besee @ Feb. 24 2013,16:48) When you say that Jesus existed as a powerful angel,
Do you know which angel?
Yes 2B.He was the one called “Jesus”, and “the Word of God”, and “the Lamb of God”. He now has been given a new name that only he and God know, but he still remains an angel of God.
Gene needs to realize that the word “angel” is an ENGLISH word, and refers to spirit messengers of God. Revelation 1:1 makes it clear that Jesus IS a spirit messenger of his God, and therefore an “angel of God”.
Now if you really want to get technical, you need to know that the Greek word “aggelos”, which we in English often (but not always) translate as “angel”, simply means “messenger”.
Here is Hebrews 2:5, the verse to which Gene referred in his post, from the Young's Literal Translation:
Hebrews 2:5 Young's Literal Translation
For not to messengers did He subject the coming world, concerning which we speak,How will you understand it now, Gene? Will you claim that Jesus is not a “messenger” of God?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 24 2013,01:18) Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 23 2013,23:50) Instead John 17:5 is Jesus asking for his glory that he had with Jehovah before the World began.
That's right, Kerwin. And if you ask for something you ALREADY HAD, then you are OBVIOUSLY asking for the RETURN of that something.This really isn't rocket science.
Kerwin,I was thinking about you today, and came up with this scenario:
Kerwin had wonderful time on vacation. The beautiful view of the ocean made his room the best room in the hotel. So when he checked out, he pre-booked that same room for next year's vacation.
But when he showed up the next year to check in, they had forgotten about his reservation, and tried to give him a different room. So Kerwin said to the front desk clerk, “Please give to me now, the room that I HAD with you last year.”
Now here's the $64,000 question:
Do we understand Kerwin's words to mean:
1. He wanted the room he actually HAD last year?
2. He wanted the room the hotel had been HOLDING FOR HIM since last year?
Of course, both statements refer to the very same room – but which of the two answers match the WORDS KERWIN ACTUALLY SAID?
IMO, the words “the room I HAD” do not come close to conveying #2.
On the other hand, they are a DIRECT MATCH to #1.
What do you guys think? (Be honest)
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 25 2013,13:26) Quote (2besee @ Feb. 24 2013,16:48) When you say that Jesus existed as a powerful angel,
Do you know which angel?
Yes 2B.He was the one called “Jesus”, and “the Word of God”, and “the Lamb of God”. He now has been given a new name that only he and God know, but he still remains an angel of God.
Gene needs to realize that the word “angel” is an ENGLISH word, and refers to spirit messengers of God. Revelation 1:1 makes it clear that Jesus IS a spirit messenger of his God, and therefore an “angel of God”.
Now if you really want to get technical, you need to know that the Greek word “aggelos”, which we in English often (but not always) translate as “angel”, simply means “messenger”.
Here is Hebrews 2:5, the verse to which Gene referred in his post, from the Young's Literal Translation:
Hebrews 2:5 Young's Literal Translation
For not to messengers did He subject the coming world, concerning which we speak,How will you understand it now, Gene? Will you claim that Jesus is not a “messenger” of God?
Mike……..There you go playing your usual Switch game again, Most all translations say ANGELS not messengers, as far as i know. But again you would do anything but admit you are wrong right Mike? As far as Messengers go , if you are considering all of Gods messengers God does subject the world to come to them all, in fact they shall rule with Jesus on this earth for 1000 Years are Joint Heirs with Him of the kingdom of God and they (saint) shall be Kings and Priest unto God. Just as it says, so that scripture could only be talking about ANGELS, Not just messenges who God has sent and there are many messenger he has sent to speak to us all.God has not subjected the world to come unto ANGELS but unto Jesus and the Saints of the Most High. It is clear to me Mike, but i know it must not be to you , with you present views.
Jesus is not the Spirit himself Spoken of in Revelations 1, He is the one who speaks the words of God who is the Spirit, Word are Spirit, Whosoever has ears to hear let him hear what the Spirit is saying. We are told Not what Jesus is saying but the Spirit is saying there is a difference between the Man Jesus and the Spirit speaking through Him, they are not one and the same thing as you persume they are. IMO
peace and love to you and yours………………………..gene
Gene,
I just can't keep up with all your unscriptural beliefs. How can I explain to you that spirit messengers of God are angels, when you don't even believe spirits are beings at all?
And how can I explain to you that Jesus is one of these spirit messengers of God, when you believe Jesus is the only flesh and blood human being living at the right hand of God, in unapproachable light?
Can you at least understand the comparison in Galatians 4:14 that I posted? Can you understand that the comparison wouldn't even work if the individual mentioned was not also a part of the group mentioned?
Also Gene,
Please answer the bolded question about “Kerwin's Hotel Saga” – three posts above this one.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 26 2013,10:05) Gene, I just can't keep up with all your scriptural beliefs. How can I explain to you that spirit messengers of God are angels, when you don't even believe spirits are beings at all?
And how can I explain to you that Jesus is one of these spirit messengers of God, when you believe Jesus is the only flesh and blood human being living at the right hand of God, in unapproachable light?
Can you at least understand the comparison in Galatians 4:14 that I posted? Can you understand that the comparison wouldn't even work if the individual mentioned was not also a part of the group mentioned?
Mike………..Now your telling us there are no Angels Just Messengers and the fact is nearly “ALL” translation translate that scripture as Angels, God has NOT Subject the World to come unto ANGELS is exactly what it say and means and N ot Scripture ever said Jesus was and Angel either. Again you simply force the text to meet you doctrines.Even Jesus acknowledged Angels as a class of “beings” not Just Messengers as you suppose.
If you are going to call Jesus an Angel, Produce the Scriptures to Prove it, and why are you not a JW that is what they also believe. David would be glad to here that .
Scripture also says Jesus has Angels he at his disposal , and while Angels can be Messengers (as in the case of Michel or Gabriel ) they are in a class of there own IMO, and where did i ever say Jesus has Now flesh and Blood , He has flesh and Bone , Just as He said he had after his resurection.
Peace and love to you and yours………………………gene
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 25 2013,13:43) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 24 2013,01:18) Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 23 2013,23:50) Instead John 17:5 is Jesus asking for his glory that he had with Jehovah before the World began.
That's right, Kerwin. And if you ask for something you ALREADY HAD, then you are OBVIOUSLY asking for the RETURN of that something.This really isn't rocket science.
Kerwin,I was thinking about you today, and came up with this scenario:
Kerwin had wonderful time on vacation. The beautiful view of the ocean made his room the best room in the hotel. So when he checked out, he pre-booked that same room for next year's vacation.
But when he showed up the next year to check in, they had forgotten about his reservation, and tried to give him a different room. So Kerwin said to the front desk clerk, “Please give to me now, the room that I HAD with you last year.”
Now here's the $64,000 question:
Do we understand Kerwin's words to mean:
1. He wanted the room he actually HAD last year?
2. He wanted the room the hotel had been HOLDING FOR HIM since last year?
Of course, both statements refer to the very same room – but which of the two answers match the WORDS KERWIN ACTUALLY SAID?
IMO, the words “the room I HAD” do not come close to conveying #2.
On the other hand, they are a DIRECT MATCH to #1.
What do you guys think? (Be honest)
Mike………See how you reasoning goes , fact is the closest, simplest and most accurate is 1, The room i had last year it is the most Specific statement and clearly expresses the intent of the person leaving no room for doubt. IMOUsing the other leaves room for the Hotel to say they did know he wanted the exact same room so they reserved him another exactly like the room he had last year.
peace and love to you and yours…………………………gene
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 24 2013,13:18) Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 23 2013,23:50) Instead John 17:5 is Jesus asking for his glory that he had with Jehovah before the World began.
That's right, Kerwin. And if you ask for something you ALREADY HAD, then you are OBVIOUSLY asking for the RETURN of that something.This really isn't rocket science.
Mike,A man walks into a lawyers office and states give me the inheritance I had with you before I was conceived.
Father, give me the mansion yourself, the mansion I had with you before the world began.
Clerk, give me the room yourself, the room I had with you last week.
I believe Americans generally use “reserved” when speaking of a room. Believers had a room reserved in the reign of God before the world began.
That is not the glory Jesus speaks of.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 25 2013,08:19) Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 24 2013,09:03) Gene, You welcomed me as if I was a Legislator of the U.S., as if I was President Obama himself.
Perfect example, Kerwin. Thanks!Naturally, for the comparison to work, the individual mentioned would HAVE TO BE a part of the group mentioned.
For example, you wouldn't say, You welcomed me as if I was a Legislator of the U.S, as if I were Michael Jackson himself.
Why? Because Michael Jackson ISN'T a “Legislator of the U.S” – and so the comparison would fall flat on it's face.
And that's why Kerwin's example is perfect, because not only is President Obama a Legislator of the U.S., he is the HEAD Legislator of the U.S.
Just like Jesus is the HEAD angel of God. So Kerwin's example is a DIRECT MATCH to Paul's words.
For once, Gene and I agree: Well put, brother Kerwin!
Mike,President Obama in the Executive of the general state of the U.S. He is not a Legislator due to the separation of powers. The group is government members, not Legislators.
Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 26 2013,12:25) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 25 2013,08:19) Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 24 2013,09:03) Gene, You welcomed me as if I was a Legislator of the U.S., as if I was President Obama himself.
Perfect example, Kerwin. Thanks!Naturally, for the comparison to work, the individual mentioned would HAVE TO BE a part of the group mentioned.
For example, you wouldn't say, You welcomed me as if I was a Legislator of the U.S, as if I were Michael Jackson himself.
Why? Because Michael Jackson ISN'T a “Legislator of the U.S” – and so the comparison would fall flat on it's face.
And that's why Kerwin's example is perfect, because not only is President Obama a Legislator of the U.S., he is the HEAD Legislator of the U.S.
Just like Jesus is the HEAD angel of God. So Kerwin's example is a DIRECT MATCH to Paul's words.
Mike,President Obama in the Executive of the general state of the U.S. He is not a Legislator due to the separation of powers. The group is government members, not Legislators.
Hi Kerwin,The Legislator-in-Chief. (role of U.S. President in legislative process)
The State of the Union and Recommendation Clauses of Article II, Section 3 provide that the President “shall from time to time give to the Congress Information of the State of the Union, and recommend to their consideration such Measures as he shall judge necessary and expedient.” Those thirty-one words envision the President as the lead active participant in the embryonic stages of the making of laws.
Of course we know that “legislator” actually means “maker of laws”, right?
The article, found here, goes on to say:
Americans today identify the President as the Legislator-in-Chief. When presidential candidates promise, We the People listen–carefully. There is much truth to the popular recognition of the President as the Legislator-in-Chief: Ever since the New Deal, we truly have had a populist, plebiscitarian presidency. (1)
This vision of the President may seem modern, but the Constitution itself has always recognized the President as a superlegislator. The Veto Clauses of Article I, Section 7 give the President the “last word” on all legislation, absent an override by a two-thirds supermajority of both Houses of Congress. (2) The President, however, sometimes has the important “first word” on legislation, too.
The article goes on (and on and on) to explain exactly HOW the President is the “Legislator-in-Chief”. And there are many other articles that attest to the same general belief. (I do recognize your “technical” argument that the executive branch of our government is not the legislative branch. But the President of the U.S. is, without a doubt, involved in the legislative process – which makes him a “legislator” – even though he is technically a member of the executive branch of our government.)
At any rate, to a person who DOESN'T consider the President to be the “Legislator-in-Chief”, your comparison would not have worked.
The individual mentioned MUST BE part of the group mentioned for a comparison of that sort to work.
So IF you are one of those like me, who believe the President IS the head legislator, your example was spot on.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 26 2013,10:08) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 25 2013,13:43)
Kerwin had wonderful time on vacation. The beautiful view of the ocean made his room the best room in the hotel. So when he checked out, he pre-booked that same room for next year's vacation.But when he showed up the next year to check in, they had forgotten about his reservation, and tried to give him a different room. So Kerwin said to the front desk clerk, “Please give to me now, the room that I HAD with you last year.”
Now here's the $64,000 question:
Do we understand Kerwin's words to mean:
1. He wanted the room he actually HAD last year?
2. He wanted the room the hotel had been HOLDING FOR HIM since last year?
Of course, both statements refer to the very same room – but which of the two answers match the WORDS KERWIN ACTUALLY SAID?
Mike………fact is the closest, simplest and most accurate is 1, The room i had last year it is the most Specific statement and clearly expresses the intent of the person leaving no room for doubt. IMO
I agree Gene. How about you, Kerwin? 2B?
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