Preexistence

[942767]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 16 2012,10:59)

I'm in error?  YOU'RE the one insisting that someone who already was existing in the likeness of a human being was “made in the likenes of a human being”.    There are no two ways around it, Marty.  That is what you believe, no matter how you try to pretty it up.  And to me, that belief is utter nonsense. And the humility Paul was teaching about Jesus is that he was existing as a powerful spirit being, second only to God.  Paul taught that Jesus didn't “rest on his laurels”, but instead allowed himself to be made as a much lower life form for the will of God and the benefit of us. In your understanding, Jesus couldn't have “humbled himself” anyway, because in your understanding, Jesus was born to a poor family, was always poor, and therefore always humble.  In your understanding, Jesus had no “high place” to humble himself down from.  In fact, your understanding teaches quite the opposite.  Your teaching depicts a Jesus who was a regular old Joe, but then hit the jackpot of all jackpots when he became the ONE human being out of billions to whom God offered a trade:  One day of severe suffering for eternity at God's right hand.  My Jesus suffered humility – yours won the greatest lottery of all time. But all that is neither here nor there.  Just rememeber that your understanding of Phil 2 calls for someone who ALREADY WAS in the likeness of a human being to BE MADE in the likeness of a human being.  If you're okay with that, who am I to judge?

Hi Mike:

As you say, “who are you to judge”. It is God's Word and He knows what He said, and therefore, if he confirms what you are teaching with the same type of miracles that in the ministry of Jesus and of the Apostles, I will believe, but until then I will pray that God will either correct you or me so that we can teach the Word of God in truth.

Jesus was God heir. He owned everything that God had even though he was raised by Joseph and Mary.

But although he owned every thing that God had, he humbled and became obedient unto death on the cross, so that we are now joint heirs with him of every thing that God created.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[mikeboll64]

Marty,

Just remember that your understanding of Phil 2 calls for someone who ALREADY WAS in the likeness of a human being to BE MADE in the likeness of a human being. That's all I ask.

[942767]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 16 2012,11:26)

Marty, Just remember that your understanding of Phil 2 calls for someone who ALREADY WAS in the likeness of a human being to BE MADE in the likeness of a human being.  That's all I ask.

Hi Mike:

I have given you my understanding of Philippians 2, and I have nothing to add to what I have already stated at this time.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[mikeboll64]

Good, Marty. Just remember what I told you in my last post. I want you to remember it, dwell on it, dream about it, etc. I'm praying that God will eventually open your eyes to the fact that it makes no sense, and therefore cannot be the correct interpretation of Phil 2. Our God is not the God of confusion, Marty. And the scriptures are put here on earth for us, not angels. That means they were designed to make sense to US.

Take care,
mike

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (942767 @ July 13 2012,13:37)

Quote (t8 @ July 12 2012,09:52) Quote (942767 @ July 09 2012,15:53) He was a human being but not just any ordinary human being.  He was “the Christ, the Son of the Living God”, but although he was in the form of God in this position, the scripture that he did not use this fact to make himself a reputation, but he took the form of a bond servant.  The Greek word for form in each case “in the form of God” and the “form a bond servant” is “morphe” () the form by which a person or thing strikes the vision). Thanks for saying this clearly. I don't think anyone else has made this stance as clear as you have. However, I have a question. Why does this particular view never quote the next part of the verse, “and was made in the likeness of men:” Because that puts it into context and perhaps a context that this view is arguing against. Hi t8: The subject of these scriptures is: Quote Phl 2:5 ¶ Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:   And so, the scriptures that follow are speaking of the “state of mind” of Christ Jesus.  He was Christ Jesus as a man.  The subject does not change. I did quote the part of the verse which states that he was made in the likeness of men and explained that although he was not born of the sperm of man but God was his Father, he did not let this fact separate him from them, but identified himself with them as being a man just like them. Love in Christ, Marty

Marty……….You have this right , Jesus made NO Destination of Himself from his Human Brothers and Sisters. It is written around 80 times he is “SON OF MAN” He acknowledged this about himself over and over in scriptures.

Jesus never separated Himself form mankind, the teachings of the Preexistences and Trinitarians do that, and that amounts to about 98% of all Present Christianity.

Very few see Jesus' Humanity clearly , they want another GOD to look up to and worship, rather then another Human being who was in all way Just like us, giving us all the TRUE example of who to have a right relationship wit OUR and HIS GOD. IMO

[terraricca]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 17 2012,07:49)

Quote (942767 @ July 13 2012,13:37) Quote (t8 @ July 12 2012,09:52) Quote (942767 @ July 09 2012,15:53) He was a human being but not just any ordinary human being.  He was “the Christ, the Son of the Living God”, but although he was in the form of God in this position, the scripture that he did not use this fact to make himself a reputation, but he took the form of a bond servant.  The Greek word for form in each case “in the form of God” and the “form a bond servant” is “morphe” () the form by which a person or thing strikes the vision). Thanks for saying this clearly. I don't think anyone else has made this stance as clear as you have. However, I have a question. Why does this particular view never quote the next part of the verse, “and was made in the likeness of men:” Because that puts it into context and perhaps a context that this view is arguing against. Hi t8: The subject of these scriptures is: Quote Phl 2:5 ¶ Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:   And so, the scriptures that follow are speaking of the “state of mind” of Christ Jesus.  He was Christ Jesus as a man.  The subject does not change. I did quote the part of the verse which states that he was made in the likeness of men and explained that although he was not born of the sperm of man but God was his Father, he did not let this fact separate him from them, but identified himself with them as being a man just like them. Love in Christ, Marty Marty……….You have this right , Jesus made NO Destination of Himself from his Human Brothers and Sisters.  It is written around 80 times he is “SON OF MAN” He acknowledged this about himself over and over in scriptures. Jesus never separated Himself form mankind, the teachings of the Preexistences and Trinitarians do that, and that amounts to about 98% of all Present Christianity. Very few see Jesus' Humanity clearly , they want another GOD to look up to and worship, rather then another Human being  who was in all way Just like us, giving us all the TRUE example of who to have a right relationship wit OUR and HIS GOD. IMO

Gene

It is amazing how you can give support to men interpretation over scriptures,

It just go to say we're your heart lays Just a notice

[GeneBalthrop]

Terricca……….Brother i also believe it that way too. Marty has give sound logic to what scripture is saying on this subject IMO> So why should i not show my agreement with his on this?  God knows my heart Pierre and i say what i do believe and he knows that also. I have ask time and time again for anyone to produce any activity of Jesus before his berth on this earth and No one has Produced any and not one word from Jesus about it either. But you preexistence demand we accept what you are saying even if you twist scriptures to say what in fact they are nit saying.  Sorry Pierre i just do  not agree with Preexistences or Trinitarians about Jesus Preexistence.

peace and love to you and yours……………………………………………………………….gene

[terraricca]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 17 2012,08:28)

Terricca……….Brother i also believe it that way too. Marty has give sound logic to what scripture is saying on this subject IMO> So why should i not so may agreement with his on this?  God knows my heart Pierre and i say what i do believe and he knows that also. I have ask time and time again for anyone to produce any activity of Jesus before his berth on this earth and No one has Produced any and not one word from Jesus about it either. But you preexistence demand we accept what you are saying even if you twist scriptures to say what in fact they are nit saying.  Sorry Pierre i just do  not agree with Preexistences or Trinitarians about Jesus Preexistence. peace and love to you and yours……………………………………………………………….gene

Gene

How could you say that ,Christ himself says he is from above and was send from his father ,and that he came down from the father,and that he is going back to the father ,

Tell me what else do you need before you believe Christ own words ,without you and others adding your own interpretation

[GeneBalthrop]

Terricca………..Produce your scriptures to support what you are saying and we can deal with them. Jesus was indeed form above but he said His disciples were also from above, So are we to believe the Disciples also came from God at a Prior existent time and came to this earth as you Preexistence and Trinitarians preach? Jesus was from above in this “SENSE” Pierre, He was in the Plan and Will of God from the foundations of the earth and in the right time God brought him into existence , a 100% pure human being Born of a Women as Prophesied by God in the Garden of Eden after the fall of man.

Jesus was not there alive already when God Said that as you falsely believe and if he was produce your “PROOF” From Scriptures. The bruising of the “Serpent's” head was accomplished by the seed of a women (Mary) and that seed was Jesus who is called the Christ or Anointed One>

God did not say that a Present “EXISTING” SEED would MORPH into the Womb of Mary as you Preexistences and Trinitarians believe. Pierre the whole concept of a Preexistent Jesus goes total against the Plan and Will of GOD and His work in and Through Mankind. Mankind is who fail and was redeemed through not so unknown “Angel” “Demigod” or what ever you people come up with. Sin came through a Man and Salvation can through a Man, not some disguised human Being as “YOUR” presented Jesus is. Why cant you understand that Pierre?

peace and Love to you and yours………………………………………………………………………gene

[terraricca]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 18 2012,08:19)

Terricca………..Produce your scriptures to support what you are saying and we can deal with them. Jesus was indeed form above but he said His disciples were also from above, So are we to believe the Disciples also came from God at a Prior existent time and came to this earth as you Preexistence and Trinitarians preach?  Jesus was from above in this “SENSE” Pierre, He was in the Plan and Will of God from the foundations of the earth and in the right time God brought him into existence , a 100% pure human being Born of a Women as Prophesied by God in the Garden of Eden after the fall of man.   Jesus was not there alive already when God Said that as you falsely believe and if he was produce your “PROOF” From Scriptures.  The bruising of the “Serpent's” head was accomplished by the seed of a women (Mary) and that seed was Jesus who is called the Christ or Anointed One> God did not say that a Present “EXISTING” SEED would MORPH into the Womb of Mary as you Preexistences and Trinitarians believe. Pierre the whole concept of a Preexistent Jesus goes total against the Plan and Will of GOD and His work in and Through Mankind. Mankind is who fail and was redeemed through not so unknown “Angel” “Demigod” or what ever you people come up with.  Sin came through a Man and Salvation can through a Man, not some disguised human  Being as “YOUR” presented  Jesus is. Why cant you understand that Pierre? peace and Love to you and yours………………………………………………………………………gene

Gene

Your blindness to scriptures can not be solved by me ,for the reason of your blindness is in bedded in your heart and mind,so the scriptures that are quoted in this topic at the beginning ,so you have to deal with it on your own ,and the scriptures ,

I do hope you will come to the light of Christ,

[GeneBalthrop]

Pierre……….Everyone that is Blind think those that disagree with Him is Blind, But as Jesus said if the blind led the blind they both shall fall into a ditch Both Trinitarians and Preexistence are in the Ditch already, and My hope is “YOU” and others will come to the Light and see that someday. But that will take the LIGHT of the CHRISTOS (anointing Spirit) of truth to accomplish it also> IMO

peace and love to you and yours Pierre…………………………………………………………….gene

[terraricca]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 19 2012,08:43)

Pierre……….Everyone that is Blind think those that disagree with Him is Blind, But as Jesus said if the blind led the blind they both shall fall into a ditch Both Trinitarians and Preexistence are in the Ditch already, and My hope is “YOU” and others will come to the Light and see that someday. But that will take the LIGHT of the CHRISTOS (anointing Spirit) of truth to accomplish it also>  IMO peace and love to you and yours Pierre…………………………………………………………….gene

Gene

Yes ,I agree with you ,but scriptures have been written for a reason,and the apostles have made clear how to approach God in those scriptures ,
And the first thing what is compulsory WE HAVE TO BELIEVE THAT THE WRITTEN WORDS IS OF GOD,and not believing means arguing about all things what is written in it,This is evidence of not believing that all the written words of God is the truth,

Unless you accept the scriptures with a pure heart ,you will not receive ,the truth embed in it.

[GeneBalthrop]

Pierre……….I tell you no matter who many scriptures you or anyone of us Know it will not Produce a ounce of Faith or Belief all, true believers are from above and given their Faith From God Himself ALONE, it doesn matter if I or you never read ONE scripture we still could be taught by GOD who is the Giver of true Faith. Many Saint Have never read on scripture in the Past and are saved. Because God has given them the Awareness of Jesus and His sacrifice for our sin by word of Mouth and It is the Spirit of truth that testifies to the Truth.Notice what Jesus Said, You study the scripture, for in them you “THINK” you have life, but they are them that spoke of Me and you will not come to Me that you may have Life , Just understanding of a few words is all that is needed, not and understanding of all scriptures Pierre

While we are to told grow in grace and “knowledge” and mature as Christians , the Knowledge of Scriptures is not what saves us Brother. The Sacrifice of Christ Jesus is what saved us all. IMO

peace and love to you and yours……………………………………………………………gene

[Wakeup]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 21 2012,03:08)

Pierre……….I tell you no matter who many scriptures you or anyone of us Know it will not Produce a ounce of Faith or Belief all, true believers are from above and given their Faith From God Himself ALONE, it doesn matter if I or you never read ONE scripture we still could be taught by GOD who is the Giver of true Faith. Many Saint Have never read on scripture in the Past and are saved. Because God has given them the Awareness of Jesus and His sacrifice for our sin by word of Mouth and It is the Spirit of truth that testifies to the Truth.Notice what Jesus Said, You study the scripture, for in them you “THINK” you have life, but they are them that spoke of Me and you will not come to Me that you may have Life , Just understanding of a few words is all that is needed, not and understanding of all scriptures Pierre While we are to told grow in grace and “knowledge” and mature as Christians , the Knowledge of Scriptures is not what saves us Brother. The Sacrifice of Christ Jesus is what saved us all. IMO peace and love to you and yours……………………………………………………………gene

Gene B.

Correction: Your statement regarding not needing to know the scriptures is not true.

Jesus said: You must eat my flesh to have eternal life.
Whose flesh have you been eating?

wakeup.

[GeneBalthrop]

Wakeup………..> Let me paraphrase it for you, Jesus said,  you must “EAT” (take to yourself) my flesh to have eternal life. That means apply his sacrifice of his Flesh for and to  you own self for the forgiveness of Sin. We are told also we must Drink (take to ourselves) His Blood too. That is all that is required, and nothing there has to do with Knowing all scriptures. The knowledge of Scriptures is not what saves anyone it is the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ that saves us alone. IMO

peace and love to you and yours…………………………………………………………….gene

[Wakeup]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 22 2012,02:49)

Wakeup………..> Let me paraphrase it for you, Jesus said,  you must “EAT” (take to yourself) my flesh to have eternal life. That means apply his sacrifice of his Flesh for and to  you own self for the forgiveness of Sin. We are told also we must Drink (take to ourselves) His Blood too. That is all that is required, and nothing there has to do with Knowing all scriptures. The knowledge of Scriptures is not what saves anyone it is the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ that saves us alone. IMO peace and love to you and yours…………………………………………………………….gene

Gene B.

Is the –HOLY BIBLE– NOT THE WORD OF GOD?
IS JESUS NOT THE WORD OF GOD?
WAS NOT ALL MADE BY THE WORD?
DID THE WORD NOT PROCEED OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD?
WAS NOT ALL CREATED BY THE BREATH OF HIS MOUTH?

Just ponder on those.

wakeup.

[942767]

Hi Gene:

We come to God with a repentant Heart, believing what he has done for us in the person of His Only Begotten Son and His Christ, that is we are saved by faith, but faith without works is dead.

Jesus explained to his disciples what he meant when he made reference to eating his flesh and drinking his blood:

He said:

Quote

Jhn 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.

And the scripture states:

Quote

2Ti 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

And:

Quote

2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (942767 @ July 22 2012,09:34)

Hi Gene: We come to God with a repentant Heart, believing what he has done for us in the person of His Only Begotten Son and His Christ, that is we are saved by faith, but faith without works is dead. Jesus explained to his disciples what he meant when he made reference to eating his flesh and drinking his blood: He said: Quote Jhn 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.   And the scripture states: Quote 2Ti 3:16   All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:   2Ti 3:17   That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.   And: Quote 2Ti 2:15   Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.   Love in Christ, Marty

Marty………I agree with all of that, I was addressing what “actually” saves Us, The word Drink and Eat in scripture simply means to “take to ones self” and it is our Faith in the Sacrifice of Jesus for our sins that causes that to take place and that has bought our salvation.

The Price and how we recieve it was my issue, not that we should not continue to study, and (NOTICE) how it is written to show “OURSELVES” that we are “APPROVED” unto God a workmen that need not be ashamed It does not say to show God that we are “APPROVED” but “OURSELVES”. That is all true But our salvation is in Believing in the sacrifice of Jesus and that GOD the FATHER Raised Him from the dead. That is what redeemed us .

The Knowledge of Scriptures doe not Save US it is ONLY the BLOOD Of CHRIST JESUS.

Paul said thought he had “ALL” Knowledge and “ALL” faith it profited him nothing if he did not also have LOVE. Understand I am not going against studying God Words, I hope i did not come across like that Brother. We certainly should study and grow in grace and Knowledge. I am sure you already know this anyway brother. IMO

peace and love to you and your Marty……………………………….gene

[Wakeup]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 24 2012,04:08)

Quote (942767 @ July 22 2012,09:34) Hi Gene: We come to God with a repentant Heart, believing what he has done for us in the person of His Only Begotten Son and His Christ, that is we are saved by faith, but faith without works is dead. Jesus explained to his disciples what he meant when he made reference to eating his flesh and drinking his blood: He said: Quote Jhn 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.   And the scripture states: Quote 2Ti 3:16   All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:   2Ti 3:17   That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.   And: Quote 2Ti 2:15   Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.   Love in Christ, Marty Marty………I agree with all of that, I was addressing what “actually” saves Us, The word Drink and Eat in scripture simply means to “take to ones self” and it is our Faith in the Sacrifice of Jesus for our sins that causes that to take place and that has bought our salvation. The Price and how we recieve it was my issue,  not that we should not continue to study,  and (NOTICE) how it is written to show “OURSELVES” that we are “APPROVED” unto God a workmen that need not be ashamed It does not say to show God that we are “APPROVED” but “OURSELVES”. That is all true But our salvation is in Believing in the sacrifice of Jesus and that GOD the FATHER Raised Him from the dead. That is what redeemed us . The Knowledge of Scriptures doe not Save US it is ONLY the BLOOD Of CHRIST JESUS. Paul said thought he had “ALL” Knowledge and “ALL” faith it profited him nothing if he did not also have LOVE. Understand I am not going against studying God Words, I hope i did not come across like that Brother. We certainly should study and grow in grace and Knowledge.  I am sure you already know this anyway brother. IMO peace and love to you and your Marty……………………………….gene

Gene B.

My people are destroyed because of lack of knowledge.
Knowledge is our foundation of faith. Jesus must be our foundation.(the word of God).

wakeup.

[GeneBalthrop]

Wakeup……………Yes People are destoryed because of lack of Knowledge , Look at our Country (US) being destoryed by Sorry Leadership , they change the Law of our fathers, Removed Tariffs allowed the Rich Corporations to go to other Country and Pay starvation wage while loosing million of Jobs Here then allowing them to send there products here without paying any tariffs that was put in place by our fore Fathers to keep trade Balance, relaxed regulations on the Stock Market causing Millions to lose their life time savings, we have millions still working to verily survive in the 70s and 80s. Yes people are destoryed by the Lack of Knowledge and sorry leadership that is for sure.

But Paul still said Though I have “ALL” Knowledge and Have not LOVE I am NOTHING> Also there is another Scripture that say KNOWLEDGE “PUFFS” UP> It can be the very source of Sin also. rue Knowledge is good, But LOVE is BETTER . Paul went on to say Now abides Hope Faith, and Love , but the GREATEST of these is “LOVE”

peace and love to you and yours Wakeup…………………………………………………………gene

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