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Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 01 2012,08:21) The word “BEFORE” is better rendered as, “Before in GOD”S WORD” then Abraham was. Jesus was simply saying before Abraham was mention I was.
Hi Gene,John 8 NWT
57 Therefore the Jews said to him: “You are not yet fifty years old, and still you have seen Abraham?”58 Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to YOU, Before Abraham came into existence, I have been.”
This is the true meaning of 8:58, Gene. You'll notice that the Jews were astonished that a man of less than 50 years old would say he had seen Abraham. Jesus' answer was to tell them that he was existing even BEFORE Abraham. He was telling them that he was not ONLY a human being with less than 50 years on the earth, but had existed prior to those years on earth.
He tried to tell them in Matthew 22:45 also. But like you, they would not believe their Lord.
Mike………..Yes Jesus did exist in Scripture before Abraham, you as well as the Jews of Christ days were thinking Jesus was speaking of his existence as a “BEING” that simply is no the case Mike, the complete context of reasoning the Jew were using was to justify their standing with GOD, it had nothing to do with BERTH of Jesus or anyone at first , they only changed the context after Jesus said what he did to them. The prier wording should have explain that to you. As you quoted verse 58…> Most truly i say to you , Before Abraham came into existence , I have been, now Mike Where do you see in existence as a sentinel “being” there, you are forcing the text to say what in fact it is not saying, you just as the Pharisee are making a false assumption of what Jesus was saying.
Jesus was speaking to them in a Parabolic language. But they could not previewed what He was saying so they as you presume he was talking about his being in EXISTENCE as a “BEING”. When in fact he was referencing his placement in the word of GOD. Does not scripture say Jesus spoke “nothing” to them except in a Parabolic language , so they could not understand what he was saying neither can many here either it appears. “Seeing they see not, hearing they hear not”. This is what has opened up so much speculations about what scripture is really saying Mike. Jesus was only “SPECIFIC” to his disciples not anyone else only those who were being called by GOD could truly understand what Jesus saying and who he was. The same applies today.
Mike Jesus did not preexist his berth on this earth except in the word and Plan of GOD No matter how you people mix up what scripture is really saying, you keep wanting to go with the way the Pharisees were viewing what Jesus was saying and Not what Jesus was actually saying, so you confusion still exists brother. IMO
peace and love to you and yours Mike……………………………………………………………gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 01 2012,11:13) As you quoted verse 58…> Most truly i say to you , Before Abraham came into existence , I have been Where do you see in existence as a sentinel “being” there, you are forcing the text to say what in fact it is not saying,
Yes Gene. If it is said that Adam EXISTED in the Garden of Eden, then I naturally assume he was existing as a sentient being.So when Jesus said he existed before Abraham did, I naturally assume he meant as a sentient person.
The question is, why would YOU assume any differently?
Mike ……….Because other scriptures show differently and there is no scriptural evidence of any activity of Jesus prior to his coming to existence on this EARTH. Jesus never said on word of any of a Prior existence or any prior activity , so why should i believe he had a prior existence he sure never said he did. God spoke to us through the Prophets but i see no where he spoke to us through Jesus prior to his berth on this earth do you?.
Mike GOD did not MORPH Jesus from one state to another of “BEING” as YOU and others “ASSUME”. You should not “NATURALLY ASSUME ” what Jesus was saying becasue the is exactly what the Jew of his day were doing also. IMO
peace and love to you and yours Mike……………………………………………………………………….gene
The scriptural evidence is plentiful, Gene. You just won't allow yourself to see it.
When are you going to answer the questions in the Beelzebul thread?
Btw Gene,
You didn't really address my point from before. When you hear that Adam lived in the Garden of Eden before being tossed out of it, don't you just naturally assume he lived there as a sentient person?
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 02 2012,11:38) Mike ……….Because other scriptures show differently and there is no scriptural evidence of any activity of Jesus prior to his coming to existence on this EARTH. Jesus never said on word of any of a Prior existence or any prior activity , so why should i believe he had a prior existence he sure never said he did. God spoke to us through the Prophets but i see no where he spoke to us through Jesus prior to his berth on this earth do you?. Mike GOD did not MORPH Jesus from one state to another of “BEING” as YOU and others “ASSUME”. You should not “NATURALLY ASSUME ” what Jesus was saying becasue the is exactly what the Jew of his day were doing also. IMO
peace and love to you and yours Mike……………………………………………………………………….gene
ghow could he say then that he came down
Quote (t8 @ July 01 2012,18:45) Quote (942767 @ July 01 2012,16:45) Fair enough. Then do mean that he pre-existed as a sentient person or not? Love in Christ,
Marty
I will let Jesus answer your question. And I hope the reaction isn't the same as when the Pharisees heard this.“Before Abraham, I am”.
Hi t8:If you would read the scripture in context, you would understand that by the statement “I am” he was indicating the “he was foreordained before Abraham existed”.
He said: “Abraham rejoiced to see my day, and he saw it and was glad”, and he was talking about himself as he appeared to them, that is as a man, was he not?
Here is the scripture in context:
Quote Jhn 8:54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God: Jhn 8:55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.
Jhn 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw [it], and was glad.
Jhn 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
Jhn 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
And this is the scripture from 1 Peter 1:
Quote 1Pe 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, [as] silver and gold, from your vain conversation [received] by tradition from your fathers; 1Pe 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
1Pe 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
And so, again, this scripture refers to the man Jesus, as a lamb without blemish, being foreordained before the foundation of the world, and the scripture states “he was manifest in the last times”.
And so, yes he existed prior to the foundation of this world in this way. God made everything that he made knowing that in him He would fulfill his plan for humanity and this world.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ July 01 2012,16:54) He said: “Abraham rejoiced to see my day, and he saw it and was glad”, and he was talking about himself as he appeared to them, that is as a man, was he not?
And what makes you think Abraham wasn't shown Jesus' day by God 2000 years before Jesus was made flesh?Surely John was shown things that had not yet happened in Revelation, right? Surely he saw a different “day of the Lord” and was glad, right?
Marty, why couldn't Jesus just have been saying that he existed before Abraham existed? That is the most clear meaning of his words in 8:58, right?
Btw, when are you going to address my FIRST points about Phil 2?
MARTY
Quote And so, again, this scripture refers to the man Jesus, as a lamb without blemish, being foreordained before the foundation of the world, and the scripture states “he was manifest in the last times”. And so, yes he existed prior to the foundation of this world in this way. God made everything that he made knowing that in him He would fulfill his plan for humanity and this world.
Love in Christ,
MartyHOW WOULD YOU EXPLAIN THIS ;;
Jn 8:37 I know you are Abraham’s descendants. Yet you are ready to kill me, because you have no room for my word.
Jn 8:38 I am telling you what I have seen in the Father’s presence, and you do what you have heard from your father.’”I am telling you what I have seen in the Father’s presenceis this also in a dream
[/B]Jn 8:40 As it is, you are determined to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God
again ;; the truth that I heard from God is this a lie
Jn 8:42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me.
and this ;;for I came from God and now am here – and this;I have not come on my own; but he sent me.
Jn 8:55 Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and keep his word.
Jn 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.”Jn 3:12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?
Jn 3:13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.(Jesus Christ the son of God)you say that we have to read the context well did you read it
scriptures are deffinetly not supporting your believe
Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 02 2012,10:02) Quote (942767 @ July 01 2012,16:54) He said: “Abraham rejoiced to see my day, and he saw it and was glad”, and he was talking about himself as he appeared to them, that is as a man, was he not?
And what makes you think Abraham wasn't shown Jesus' day by God 2000 years before Jesus was made flesh?Surely John was shown things that had not yet happened in Revelation, right? Surely he saw a different “day of the Lord” and was glad, right?
Marty, why couldn't Jesus just have been saying that he existed before Abraham existed? That is the most clear meaning of his words in 8:58, right?
Btw, when are you going to address my FIRST points about Phil 2?
Hi Mike:He did show Abraham Jesus day, through the promises he made to Abraham. He told him “in thee shall all of the familes of the earth blessed”, and gave him the promised child “Isaac” who is a type of Christ, and of whom he said “in Isaac will thy seed be called”, and many other ways through his promises to Abraham.
Quote Hbr 11:8 ¶ By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. Hbr 11:9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as [in] a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
Hbr 11:10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker [is] God.
Hbr 11:11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.
Hbr 11:12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, [so many] as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
I don't know what you want me to address in Philippians 2. I will go back and try to find it.
Love in Christ,
MartyHe “told” him? Or “showed” him? It seems you are calling them both the same thing. My question is: How do you know God didn't show Abraham the future when Jesus is on earth like He showed John the future in Revelation?
You really don't, do you? So your last point to t8 is null, void, and a diversion from the fact that Jesus said he existed before Abraham.
As far as Phil 2, you have ignored the last three of my posts about it. But right now we are talking about verse 6 only, and your assertion that “existing in the form of God” is present tense, describing Jesus on earth.
But Paul wrote his letter to the Philippians long after Jesus was exalted to heaven, right? So “existing in the form of God” – even if we are to understand it your way – would still be a past tense statement, right?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 02 2012,10:58) He “told” him? Or “showed” him? It seems you are calling them both the same thing. My question is: How do you know God didn't show Abraham the future when Jesus is on earth like He showed John the future in Revelation? You really don't, do you? So your last point to t8 is null, void, and a diversion from the fact that Jesus said he existed before Abraham.
As far as Phil 2, you have ignored the last three of my posts about it. But right now we are talking about verse 6 only, and your assertion that “existing in the form of God” is present tense, describing Jesus on earth.
But Paul wrote his letter to the Philippians long after Jesus was exalted to heaven, right? So “existing in the form of God” – even if we are to understand it your way – would still be a past tense statement, right?
Hi Mike:Jesus said: “Abraham rejoiced to see my day and he saw it and was glad”
That is all I need to know.
Abraham said the following when he was tested by God with Isaac on the altar:
Quote Gen 22:7 And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here [am] I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where [is] the lamb for a burnt offering? Gen 22:8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.
Yes, Paul was writing about Jesus in his ministry on earth, and so, it was in the past relative to when Paul was writing, but it was present tense relative to his reference to humility of Jesus mind during his ministry on earth.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (Gene Balthrop @ July 02 2012,04:38) Mike ……….Because other scriptures show differently and there is no scriptural evidence of any activity of Jesus prior to his coming to existence on this EARTH. Jesus never said on word of any of a Prior existence or any prior activity , so why should i believe he had a prior existence he sure never said he did. God spoke to us through the Prophets but i see no where he spoke to us through Jesus prior to his berth on this earth do you?. Mike GOD did not MORPH Jesus from one state to another of “BEING” as YOU and others “ASSUME”. You should not “NATURALLY ASSUME ” what Jesus was saying becasue the is exactly what the Jew of his day were doing also. IMO
peace and love to you and yours Mike……………………………………………………………………….gene
Gene B.GeneB's quote:
There is no scriptural evidence of any activity of Jesus prior to his coming to existence on this earth.
What about the tree of live in the garden?
What about Abraham entertaining the three angels and one of them is the Lord?
What about Melchizedek of which Abraham gave him a tenth of his spoils?In genesis: Behold man has become as one of –US–.
1.GOD. 2.HIS LIVING WORD.= US.NO evidence you say??
wakeup.
Quote (942767 @ July 01 2012,18:14) Yes, Paul was writing about Jesus in his ministry on earth, and so, it was in the past relative to when Paul was writing…………..
Fantastic, we have agreed upon something finally.
So, now we both agree that “existing in the form of God” is PAST tense.
Phil 2
6 Who, existing in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,7 but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being made in human likeness.
This is my understanding:
1. Jesus was existing in the form of God – meaning he existed along with God as a spirit being.2. He did not try to make a claim of equality with his God (like Satan apparently did)……….
3. But instead considered himself of no account where God was concerned……..
4. And willingly took the form of a sub-creature, much lower than the creature he was in heaven, by being made into a human being.
Tell me your interpretation please.
Quote (942767 @ July 02 2012,12:54) Hi t8: If you would read the scripture in context, you would understand that by the statement “I am” he was indicating the “he was foreordained before Abraham existed”.
“I think therefore I am”.In this famous statement in English, what do you think the meaning of “I am” is?
Quote (t8 @ July 03 2012,10:58) Quote (942767 @ July 02 2012,12:54) Hi t8: If you would read the scripture in context, you would understand that by the statement “I am” he was indicating the “he was foreordained before Abraham existed”.
“I think therefore I am”.In this famous statement in English, what do you think the meaning of “I am” is?
Hi t8:According to the scripture, it means that he was “foreordained”.
Quote 1Pe 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, [as] silver and gold, from your vain conversation [received] by tradition from your fathers; 1Pe 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
1Pe 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you
Love in Christ,
MartyMarty, how does being foreordained before the world began prohibit Jesus from also existing as a sentient person before the world began?
Btw, that's not even close to a direct and honest answer to the question t8 actually asked.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 03 2012,09:00) Quote (942767 @ July 01 2012,18:14) Yes, Paul was writing about Jesus in his ministry on earth, and so, it was in the past relative to when Paul was writing…………..
Fantastic, we have agreed upon something finally.So, now we both agree that “existing in the form of God” is PAST tense.
Phil 2
6 Who, existing in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,7 but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being made in human likeness.
This is my understanding:
1. Jesus was existing in the form of God – meaning he existed along with God as a spirit being.2. He did not try to make a claim of equality with his God (like Satan apparently did)……….
3. But instead considered himself of no account where God was concerned……..
4. And willingly took the form of a sub-creature, much lower than the creature he was in heaven, by being made into a human being.
Tell me your interpretation please.
Mike:I already have given you my understanding of the scriptures.
Love in Christ,
Marty
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