Preexistence

[942767]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 30 2012,10:26)

Quote (942767 @ June 29 2012,17:12) Hi Mike: The scripture states that God is invisible.  I do not know a scripture which states that angels are invisible. Look at Col 1:16 and John 3:8.  Are you going to seriously claim that angels, as spirit beings, are not invisible to human beings? Why then would God have to open the eyes of Balaam and Elisha's servant to see them?  If they were not invisible to us, then Balaam and Elisha's servant would have seen them the whole time, right? Quote (942767 @ June 29 2012,17:12) The scripture states “that no man has seen God at any time”, and Jesus is a man. Very good, Marty.  So how could Jesus, “a man”, have seen God like he said he did……………..unless he had seen God BEFORE he was made into the likeness of a human being?

Hi Mike:

Angels are invisible to man unless God chooses to let man see them, but the scripture states that God is invisible, period. Is there a scripture which states that angels are invisible?

No, Jesus did not see him in that way. What good what that do to us. He has seen him in that he has seen his person, and has shown us that God is love through his life of obedience to Him, and so he could say “He who has seen me has seen the Father”.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[942767]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 30 2012,10:07)

Quote (942767 @ June 29 2012,16:30) He says and “Now glorify me”, and NOT “and now glorify me again with the glory which I had with thee before the world was”. And you don't think the words “with the glory I HAD” indicates a previous glory?  Isn't “again” implied if Jesus is asking to be glorified NOW with the glory HE HAD before the world began?   Marty, you seem to be PURPOSELY not understanding things because to do so would put a damper on your doctrine. But I see you are talking about Phil 2 with t8, so let's talk about it. 6 Who, existing in the form of God,   did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, I understand Paul to be talking about a PAST existence Jesus had, prior to being made into a human being.  The past tense phrase “DID NOT CONSIDER” is a sure clue. Now, if you are considering this to be a present tense scenario, do you think it should be translated as “DOES NOT CONSIDER……..”? And if present tense, then is Paul speaking about the exalted Jesus, who is in heaven now “existing in the form of God”? Let's take this one verse at a time so you can lay your understanding on me

Hi Mike:

Jesus was speaking of the glory of being exalted to the right hand of God as head of the church, and so if he says “with the glory that I had with thee before the world was”.  

Was he already the head of the church before the world was?

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John 17 (King James Version) 17 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: 2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. 4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. 5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

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20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; 21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[Proclaimer]

Quote (942767 @ June 30 2012,12:30)

Hi t8: You say: Quote Interestingly enough Jesus has been seen while in this glory, and that glory was what he had before the world began.

Here's the thing Marty.

I only quoted you scripture and you took it to mean that he existed as a sentient person. I made no such reference in this post. So it was you who concluded that he was a sentient person from what I quoted.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (942767 @ June 30 2012,12:30)

The word “morphe” indicates and outward appearance, and the scripture in Philippians states: Quote 5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: It is speaking of the humility of mind of Christ Jesus, and he was not Christ Jesus until he was born into this world, and the scripture states “who being in the form of God”, and that is present tense.

Please read it again.

From the text it is clear that he was in the form of God either before or at the time he partook of flesh and possibly as you say present tense too. I won't argue this last point because that would distract from the direction of the argument.

So when did he partake of flesh exactly. Once you know that, then know that he existed in the form of God at that time according to the text.

Also if you took out the word God and put in the word man it would read: Although he existed in the form of man…

That would indicate that he existed as a human being. So if he existed in the form of God, then why does it change to not being a being? In fact if it said he existed in the form of man, I bet you would quote this verse as a support verse for you view and in a way that I am using to say that he existed in the form of God.

I think you have one rule for existing in the form of man and another for existing in the form of God.

[Proclaimer]

Also interesting to note that angels who appeared before men often looked like men.
We are not taught anywhere how this is accomplished, but it appears that these spirits can partake of a body like ours or at least change in appearance to look like men.

Even the Sodomites thought they were men.

[terraricca]

Marty

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Hi Pierre: In Genesis 1 God said: Quote 26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And in 1 Corinthians Paul said: Quote 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit Jesus is called the “Last Adam”, and so, when God made man in his own image, the first Adam was not the culmination of this. The first man, Adam was made “a living soul”, like God in that he was a living person with a mind, a will, and emotions, Jesus is the “last Adam” of whom the scripture states: Quote Hebrews 1 King James Version (KJV) 1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high: Just because God rested on the seventh day does not mean that he stopped working. The creation was finished. All men after the First Adam would be born of a woman. Quote John 5:14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee. 15 The man departed, and told the Jews that it was Jesus, which had made him whole. 16 And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day. 17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work Love in Christ, Marty

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26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible,

let compare things equally right .so witch his greater the flesh or the spirit his Adam not born in the flesh ???yes; did not Christ born from the spirit yes he was spirit before he came to be a man so he his born of the spirit ,right if you can understand this .

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2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Heb 1:2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.
Heb 1:3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.
Heb 1:4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.

the analogy that Paul makes with Adam and Christ his only an image ;

1Co 15:45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being” ; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.
1Co 15:46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual.

“SO IT IS WRITTEN ” “The first man Adam became a living being” THIS IS WRITTEN IN GEN 2-7,BUT THE ANALOGY IS NOT WRITTEN ANYWHERE “the last Adam, a life-giving spirit” THIS IS PAUL TEACHING HIS UNDERSTANDING .–

[mikeboll64]

Quote (942767 @ June 29 2012,19:02)

Hi Mike: Angels are invisible to man unless God chooses to let man see them, but the scripture states that God is invisible, period. Is there a scripture which states that angels are invisible?

Yes Marty,

MEN have written that God is invisible. Is there a scripture that says God is invisible from another spirit being's perspective?

Jesus said he had seen Him. Jesus said children's angels see Him always. You can try to imagine it means something other than what it clearly says if you want to, but I will believe the words of my Lord.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (942767 @ June 29 2012,19:28)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 30 2012,10:07) Quote (942767 @ June 29 2012,16:30) He says and “Now glorify me”, and NOT “and now glorify me again with the glory which I had with thee before the world was”. And you don't think the words “with the glory I HAD” indicates a previous glory?  Isn't “again” implied if Jesus is asking to be glorified NOW with the glory HE HAD before the world began?   Marty, you seem to be PURPOSELY not understanding things because to do so would put a damper on your doctrine. But I see you are talking about Phil 2 with t8, so let's talk about it. 6 Who, existing in the form of God,   did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, I understand Paul to be talking about a PAST existence Jesus had, prior to being made into a human being.  The past tense phrase “DID NOT CONSIDER” is a sure clue. Now, if you are considering this to be a present tense scenario, do you think it should be translated as “DOES NOT CONSIDER……..”? And if present tense, then is Paul speaking about the exalted Jesus, who is in heaven now “existing in the form of God”? Let's take this one verse at a time so you can lay your understanding on me Hi Mike: Jesus was speaking of the glory of being exalted to the right hand of God as head of the church, and so if he says “with the glory that I had with thee before the world was”.   Was he already the head of the church before the world was?

Where in the scripture does it say Jesus was talking about the glory of “being the head of the church”?

Whatever glory Jesus was talking about, we can be sure of one thing: He was asking for the RETURN of a glory HE HAD before the world began.

There are a couple of questions concerning Phil 2 in that last post – questions to which I still await a response from you.

[GeneBalthrop]

T8……..God is not FORM God is Spirit> Therefore the Text is referring to the Nature of Jesus, at the time of he earthly existence and Marty is right it is a Present Tens statement referring to his state at the time of his earthly existence.The context of what Paul said should tell you that. He was not talking about a time not of a preexistent earthly existence as you assume. IMO

peace and love to you and yours………………………………………………………………gene

[terraricca]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 01 2012,06:47)

T8……..God is not FORM God is Spirit> Therefore the Text is referring to the Nature of Jesus, at the time of he earthly existence and Marty is right it is a Present Tens statement referring to his state at the time of his earthly existence.The context of what Paul said should tell you that. He was not talking about a time not of a preexistent earthly existence as you assume.  IMO peace and love to you and yours………………………………………………………………gene

G

How do you know that God has no form

Do you ever have seen God

If it said that Christ was in the form of God ,would this not mean that God also has a form

[mikeboll64]

Quote (terraricca @ June 30 2012,08:32)

If it said that Christ was in the form of God ,would this not mean that God also has a form

That's the way I understand it, Pierre.  Plus, Gene is saying that “existing in the form of God” is in the present tense when Paul wrote the letter to the Philippians.  If that was the case, the Paul must have been speaking about the exalted Jesus (for Jesus was no longer a man on earth when Paul wrote that letter).  And if Paul was speaking of the exalted Jesus, then when was Jesus made into the likeness of a human being the SECOND time?

I hope to get to the bottom of all this with Marty, by taking that Phil 2 passage one verse at a time.

[terraricca]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 01 2012,08:41)

Quote (terraricca @ June 30 2012,08:32) If it said that Christ was in the form of God ,would this not mean that God also has a form That's the way I understand it, Pierre.  Plus, Gene is saying that “existing in the form of God” is in the present tense when Paul wrote the letter to the Philippians.  If that was the case, the Paul must have been speaking about the exalted Jesus (for Jesus was no longer a man on earth when Paul wrote that letter).  And if Paul was speaking of the exalted Jesus, then when was Jesus made into the likeness of a human being the SECOND time? I hope to get to the bottom of all this with Marty, by taking that Phil 2 passage one verse at a time.

Mike

How could anyone put a time to the existence of God
God does not live in time ,what is ,was,will be,so Paul must talk in that understanding ,Christ being the son of God would be under the same rule ,no time ,what he his in the beginning and return to it after fulfilling his father s will ,and so receive more glory ,and sit on the righ hand of his father .

[942767]

Quote (t8 @ June 30 2012,12:42)

Quote (942767 @ June 30 2012,12:30) Hi t8: You say: Quote Interestingly enough Jesus has been seen while in this glory, and that glory was what he had before the world began. Here's the thing Marty. I only quoted you scripture and you took it to mean that he existed as a sentient person. I made no such reference in this post. So it was you who concluded that he was a sentient person from what I quoted.

Fair enough.  Then do mean that he pre-existed as a sentient person or not?

Love in Christ,
Marty

[942767]

Quote (t8 @ June 30 2012,12:52)

Quote (942767 @ June 30 2012,12:30) The word “morphe” indicates and outward appearance, and the scripture in Philippians states: Quote 5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: It is speaking of the humility of mind of Christ Jesus, and he was not Christ Jesus until he was born into this world, and the scripture states “who being in the form of God”, and that is present tense. Please read it again. From the text it is clear that he was in the form of God either before or at the time he partook of flesh and possibly as you say present tense too. I won't argue this last point because that would distract from the direction of the argument. So when did he partake of flesh exactly. Once you know that, then know that he existed in the form of God at that time according to the text. Also if you took out the word God and put in the word man it would read: Although he existed in the form of man… That would indicate that he existed as a human being. So if he existed in the form of God, then why does it change to not being a being? In fact if it said he existed in the form of man, I bet you would quote this verse as a support verse for you view and in a way that I am using to say that he existed in the form of God. I think you have one rule for existing in the form of man and another for existing in the form of God.

Hi t8:

The Apostle Paul is teaching the Philppian church about humility.

Verse 5 the Apostle Paul is instructing the church to let the attitude of our mind be like the attitude of mind that Christ Jesus had.

He was not Jesus Christ until he was born of the virgin Mary.

He was “in the form of God when he went into his ministry here on earth”. This is where we could observe his humility, not in some pre-existent state.

You say:

Quote

Also if you took out the word God and put in the word man it would read: Although he existed in the form of man…

The was a man as Christ Jesus. Was he not?

I have already shared a scripture elsewhere which stated that he had the power to forgive sins in his earthly ministry. Does this not show that he was “in the form of God”. He was and is God's only begotten Son and His Christ.

The whole essence of these scriptures is to teach the church about humility using the life that Jesus lived during his ministry here on earth

He was not any ordinary man. He was the Son of the Living God. Yet, identified himself with ordinary men, and he humbled himself and became obedient unto death for our sake.

No, not two separate rules. He was in the form of God in his ministry here on earth. He was in the form of God as a man.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[Proclaimer]

Quote (942767 @ July 01 2012,16:45)

Fair enough. Then do mean that he pre-existed as a sentient person or not? Love in Christ, Marty

I will let Jesus answer your question. And I hope the reaction isn't the same as when the Pharisees heard this.

“Before Abraham, I am”.

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (terraricca @ July 01 2012,01:32)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 01 2012,06:47) T8……..God is not FORM God is Spirit> Therefore the Text is referring to the Nature of Jesus, at the time of he earthly existence and Marty is right it is a Present Tens statement referring to his state at the time of his earthly existence.The context of what Paul said should tell you that. He was not talking about a time not of a preexistent earthly existence as you assume.  IMO peace and love to you and yours………………………………………………………………gene G How do you know that God has no form Do you ever have seen God If it said that Christ was in the form of God ,would this not mean that God also has a form

Terricca……..The word “Form” there should be rendered “NATURE” God is SPIRIT , Spirits do not have “FORM” they produce the Nature of a Person. They are types and Kinds not FORMS of anything. Paul was saying, Jesus had while on this earth the NATURE of GOD (IN) Him, becasue of the Anointing He recieved at the Jordan river, All who have recieved of that same Spirit have that same Nature (IN) them.

Did Not Jesus say many time the FATHER is (IN) ME. The problem here is many do not understand what Spirit really is and it is a Major stumbling-block here as well in all religion. IMO

peace and love to you and yours………………………………..gene

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (t8 @ July 01 2012,18:45)

Quote (942767 @ July 01 2012,16:45) Fair enough.  Then do mean that he pre-existed as a sentient person or not? Love in Christ, Marty I will let Jesus answer your question. And I hope the reaction isn't the same as when the Pharisees heard this. “Before Abraham, I am”.

T8…….Your are doing exactly what the Pharisees were doing , they also like you were thinking Jesus Meant his Berth, that is why they said what they said in response to his words, they as you thought he was referencing his age of existence, But if you look very closely at the context of their confrontation you will find the Pharisees were using Abraham as a POSITION in their relationship with GOD , and Jesus simply said He was “BEFORE” the POSITION of Abraham in scripture. The word “BEFORE” is better rendered as, “Before in GOD”S WORD” then Abraham was. Jesus was simply saying before Abraham was mention I was.

Jesus later said to them “You study the scripture, becasue you think in them you have life and they are them which spoke of Me and you will not come unto me that you may have life”. You see brother they trusted in the Scriptures and their belief on them being Abraham's offspring that they had Life. But the true life was believing in Jesus not their relationship with Abraham or scripture.

peace and love to you and yours brother………………………gene

[terraricca]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 02 2012,07:55)

Quote (terraricca @ July 01 2012,01:32) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 01 2012,06:47) T8……..God is not FORM God is Spirit> Therefore the Text is referring to the Nature of Jesus, at the time of he earthly existence and Marty is right it is a Present Tens statement referring to his state at the time of his earthly existence.The context of what Paul said should tell you that. He was not talking about a time not of a preexistent earthly existence as you assume.  IMO peace and love to you and yours………………………………………………………………gene G How do you know that God has no form Do you ever have seen God If it said that Christ was in the form of God ,would this not mean that God also has a form Terricca……..The word “Form” there should be rendered “NATURE” God is SPIRIT , Spirits do not have “FORM”  they produce the  Nature of a Person.  They are types and Kinds not FORMS of anything. Paul was saying, Jesus had while on this earth the NATURE of GOD (IN) Him,  becasue of the Anointing He recieved at the Jordan river, All who have recieved of that same Spirit have that same Nature (IN) them. Did Not Jesus say many time the FATHER is (IN) ME.  The problem here is many do not understand what Spirit really is and it is a Major stumbling-block here as well in all religion.  IMO peace and love to you and yours………………………………..gene

Gene

did you never heard the story about UPSTAIRS AND DOWNSTAIRS ,

WELL IT IS LIKE THIS ,if it is not upstairs it is downstairs and if it is not downstairs it is upstairs ,and so many live their lives on the stairs never knowing were to go ,

now FORM OR NATURE TO ME DOES NOT MATTER BECAUSE WHAT EVER IT IS ;FORM OR NATURE WE NEVER SAW IT AND NEVER WILL KNOW IT UNLESS WE DIE AND ARE ONE OF THE 144K,

SO WHAT HIS YOUR POINT .CAN YOU DISCRIBE IT

[mikeboll64]

Quote (942767 @ June 30 2012,21:27)

He was “in the form of God when he went into his ministry here on earth”.

Marty,

Paul wrote his letter to the Philippians years after Jesus had been exalted to heaven. So your understanding that “form of God” referred to when Jesus was ministering on earth requires “existing in the form of God” to be a past tense phrase.

Do you agree?

[terraricca]

Quote (942767 @ July 01 2012,21:27)

Quote (t8 @ June 30 2012,12:52) Quote (942767 @ June 30 2012,12:30) The word “morphe” indicates and outward appearance, and the scripture in Philippians states: Quote 5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: It is speaking of the humility of mind of Christ Jesus, and he was not Christ Jesus until he was born into this world, and the scripture states “who being in the form of God”, and that is present tense. Please read it again. From the text it is clear that he was in the form of God either before or at the time he partook of flesh and possibly as you say present tense too. I won't argue this last point because that would distract from the direction of the argument. So when did he partake of flesh exactly. Once you know that, then know that he existed in the form of God at that time according to the text. Also if you took out the word God and put in the word man it would read: Although he existed in the form of man… That would indicate that he existed as a human being. So if he existed in the form of God, then why does it change to not being a being? In fact if it said he existed in the form of man, I bet you would quote this verse as a support verse for you view and in a way that I am using to say that he existed in the form of God. I think you have one rule for existing in the form of man and another for existing in the form of God. Hi t8: The Apostle Paul is teaching the Philppian church about humility. Verse 5 the Apostle Paul is instructing the church to let the attitude of our mind be like the attitude of mind that Christ Jesus had. He was not Jesus Christ until he was born of the virgin Mary. He was “in the form of God when he went into his ministry here on earth”.   This is where we could observe his humility, not in some pre-existent state. You say: Quote Also if you took out the word God and put in the word man it would read: Although he existed in the form of man… The was a man as Christ Jesus.  Was he not? I have already shared a scripture elsewhere which stated that he had the power to forgive sins in his earthly ministry.  Does this not show that he was “in the form of God”.  He was and is God's only begotten Son and His Christ. The whole essence of these scriptures is to teach the church about humility using the life that Jesus lived during his ministry here on earth He was not any ordinary man.  He was the Son of the Living God.  Yet, identified himself with ordinary men, and he humbled himself and became obedient unto death for our sake. No, not two separate rules.  He was in the form of God in his ministry here on earth.  He was in the form of God as a man. Love in Christ, Marty

mARTY

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You say: Quote Also if you took out the word God and put in the word man it would read: Although he existed in the form of man…

YOU USSING AN EXAMPLE OF T8 AND THEN USE IT AS A QUOTE `

ARE YOU NOT DEVIOUS IN THIS WAY ???IF THIS GOING TO BE YOUR READINGS IN SCRIPTURES NO WANDER YOU INTERPRET ALL THING AS PER YOUR OWN DEVIOUS WAY.

[Author]

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