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Quote (t8 @ June 27 2012,09:44) Quote (942767 @ June 26 2012,03:23) Hi t8: Can you see a spirit?
Love in Christ,
Marty
Yes spirits who have spirit bodies can indeed be seen.Angels were often seen and even in Heavenly glory where prophets could only fall on their face at the glorious sight.
Hi t8:I asked “Can you see a spirit”, not if you can see “a spirit that has a body”, and even so, you can see the body, but you cannot see the spirit except through the life that is lived through the body.
And can you show me by the scriptures that Jesus had a body prior to being born into this world?
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (mikeboll64 @ June 26 2012,10:13) Hi Marty, I think you're focusing on the wrong point here. You must first decide how God could have had an “outward appearence” in the first place, so that Jesus could be existing in that same form.
I personally believe that God, like all spirit beings, has a spiritual body which can be seen by other spirit beings.
The eyes of human beings can't usually see these spirit beings, but on occasion, God will “open the eyes” of a flesh being, allowing him to see into the spirit realm. Balaam and the donkey is one instance where this is recorded. Elisha and his servant and the chariots of fire is another.
Notice how in both cases, one was able to see the spirits, while the other was not…………….. UNTIL God also opened their eyes to see them. In other words, those spirits didn't “materialize” two different times. Instead, they were already there, and God opened the eyes of the donkey and Elisha BEFORE He opened the eyes of Balaam and Elisha's servant.
Anyway, I don't see how you're implying a non-preexistent Jesus from the words of Phil 2:6. I understand it as Jesus was existing in a spirit form, just as his God always does. He then emptied himself and was made into a human being.
Hi Mike:You generally use Philippians 2:6 to try to support your belief in a pre-existent Jesus who you say “was in the form of God” before “he became a man”, but you are adding that word “before” to the scripture. It is not there. And you say “he emptied himself”, and I ask you “emptied himself of what or in what way”?
I am not “focusing on the wrong thing”. I am trying to arrive at the truth so that we can quit saying something that God did not say. Otherwise, we need to come into unity and preach the Word of God in truth.
You most definitely can see the body of a spirit being, but you can only see the spirit being through the life that he lives.
To be sure, we did see some visions of Jesus in the OT. One nobable one is in the book of Daniel as the fourth man in the fire with Shadrack, Meshack and Abednego.
Love in Christ,
MartyHi Marty,
I would love to have a Phil 2 discussion with you again. But could you first address my most recent post to you on this thread? It seems you ignored the one I made today, and re-addressed the one from yesterday.
Also, how do you figure Jesus was the 4th man in the fire if he didn't yet exist?
Hi Mike and t8:
Mike, I will go back and see what you have asked that I haven't addressed. The fourth man in the fire was a vision of Jesus.
Meanwhile, try this: “the Word was with God and the Word was God”, and according to you this was Jesus in a pre-existent state who was in the “form of God”, Greek, Morphe, this form is visible by the definition of the word, but what about the following scripture:
Quote Jhn 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him]. Please explain.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (t8 @ June 27 2012,16:44) Quote (942767 @ June 26 2012,03:23) Hi t8: Can you see a spirit?
Love in Christ,
Marty
Yes spirits who have spirit bodies can indeed be seen.Angels were often seen and even in Heavenly glory where prophets could only fall on their face at the glorious sight.
T8is not all what God make men see, make it, at his own level ,if not how could or would men understand it
?reality in heaven I understand is different ,
Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 27 2012,09:19) Marty, How did we see Jesus “in the form of God” unless God Himself has an “outward appearence”?
The words “form OF God” mean that God Himself DOES have a form (outward appearence), right?
If God doesn't have a form, then there is no way Jesus could have been existing in the “form of God”, ie: “God's form”.
What say you?
Hi Mike:God is invisible, but one can see His character made manifest through His Word when it is put into action, and so, Jesus stated:
Quote Jhn 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou [then], Shew us the Father? Jhn 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Love in Christ,
MartyHey Marty,
No MAN has ever seen God. But other spirit beings, like the angels of little children, see His face every day.
Matthew 18:10
“See that you do not look down on one of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven.Marty, the point is not that NO BEING WHATSOEVER can see God. The teaching is that HUMAN BEINGS cannot see God.
God does have a form (Phil 2:6), and other spirit beings can see Him. So when it is said that God is invisible, it means invisible TO US HUMAN BEINGS, not to other spirit beings. Are we agreed?
Mile………We all can seen God , through the Spirit (intellect) that is (IN) us , Just as Jesus did and does. Your error is you are making Spirit a Person or “BEING” (IT) is NOT> As through the eye of your understanding , God can not be physically seen now or ever will be either. God is a SPIRIT and Spirits are not “BEINGS” they are (ITS) , They live (IN) Beings a Spirit has NO BODY!. Marty is right in what he is saying Mike, think about what he is saying.
peace and love to you and yours…………………………………………gene
Quote (942767 @ June 27 2012,13:53) Hi t8: I asked “Can you see a spirit”, not if you can see “a spirit that has a body”, and even so, you can see the body, but you cannot see the spirit except through the life that is lived through the body.
And can you show me by the scriptures that Jesus had a body prior to being born into this world?
Love in Christ,
Marty
I don't think you can see a spirit, but you can see a body, even a spiritual body. Case in hand would be the demons that entered the pig. I don't think anyone actually saw the demons, but saw them manifest in a human body and then the pigs.As far as Jesus having a body, all I can tell you is that he existed in the form of God, emptied himself, partook of flesh, died, and now exists in the glory which he had with the Father before the world began. Interestingly enough Jesus has been seen while in this glory, and that glory was what he had before the world began.
That is all I can tell you and it is up to you to connect the dots, without deleting any of the dots.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 28 2012,11:11) Your error is you are making Spirit a Person or “BEING” (IT) is NOT> As through the eye of your understanding , God can not be physically seen now or ever will be either. God is a SPIRIT and Spirits are not “BEINGS” they are (ITS) , They live (IN) Beings a Spirit has NO BODY!.
Gene,I disagree with your understanding of spirits, and believe it is you who is in error.
Any entity that has a mind, will, and emotions of his own is a “being”. God has all of those things, and is therefore known as “The Supreme Being“.
Michael and Gabriel are also spirit beings. And so is Satan. But this is not the thread for that discussion.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 28 2012,11:28) Hey Marty, No MAN has ever seen God. But other spirit beings, like the angels of little children, see His face every day.
Matthew 18:10
“See that you do not look down on one of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven.Marty, the point is not that NO BEING WHATSOEVER can see God. The teaching is that HUMAN BEINGS cannot see God.
God does have a form (Phil 2:6), and other spirit beings can see Him. So when it is said that God is invisible, it means invisible TO US HUMAN BEINGS, not to other spirit beings. Are we agreed?
Hi Mike:Invisible means that He cannot be seen with the eye, and so in the scripture that states that the angels behold his face there must be another explanation.
Following is what the concordance has for the word “behold”:
Usage in the KJV:
see 90, take heed 12, behold 10, beware 4, look on 4, look 3, beware of 3, misc 9Total: 135
Definition:
to see, discern, of the bodily eye
with the bodily eye: to be possessed of sight, have the power of seeing
perceive by the use of the eyes: to see, look descry
to turn the eyes to anything: to look at, look upon, gaze at
to perceive by the senses, to feel
to discover by use, to know by experience
metaph. to see with the mind's eye
to have (the power of) understanding
to discern mentally, observe, perceive, discover, understand
to turn the thoughts or direct the mind to a thing, to consider, contemplate, to look at, to weigh carefully, examine
in a geographical sense of places, mountains, buildings, etc. turning towards any quarter, as it were, facing it For Synonyms see entry 5822
TDNT – Theological Dictionary of the New Testament
TWOT – Theological Word Book of the Old TestamentThis scripture is speaking of someone possibly mistreating one of God's children, and the angels, and the angels perceive God's judgment to those mistreating His children.
Here is the definition of face according to the concordance:
Usage in the KJV:
face 55, person 7, presence 7, countenance 3, not tr 1, misc 5Total: 78
Definition:
the face
the front of the human head
countenance, look
the face so far forth as it is the organ of sight, and by it various movements and changes) the index of the inward thoughts and feelings
the appearance one presents by his wealth or property, his rank or low condition
outward circumstances, external condition
used in expressions which denote to regard the person in one's judgment and treatment of men
the outward appearance of inanimate things
TDNT – Theological Dictionary of the New Testament
TWOT – Theological Word Book of the Old TestamentI would say that the following is what is meant:
Quote used in expressions which denote to regard the person in one's judgment and treatment of men Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (t8 @ June 29 2012,09:41) Quote (942767 @ June 27 2012,13:53) Hi t8: I asked “Can you see a spirit”, not if you can see “a spirit that has a body”, and even so, you can see the body, but you cannot see the spirit except through the life that is lived through the body.
And can you show me by the scriptures that Jesus had a body prior to being born into this world?
Love in Christ,
Marty
I don't think you can see a spirit, but you can see a body, even a spiritual body. Case in hand would be the demons that entered the pig. I don't think anyone actually saw the demons, but saw them manifest in a human body and then the pigs.As far as Jesus having a body, all I can tell you is that he existed in the form of God, emptied himself, partook of flesh, died, and now exists in the glory which he had with the Father before the world began. Interestingly enough Jesus has been seen while in this glory, and that glory was what he had before the world began.
That is all I can tell you and it is up to you to connect the dots, without deleting any of the dots.
Hi t8:You say:
Quote Interestingly enough Jesus has been seen while in this glory, and that glory was what he had before the world began. Show me this by the scriptures and you will convince me that Jesus pre-existed as a sentient person.
The word “morphe” indicates and outward appearance, and the scripture in Philippians states:
Quote 5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:It is speaking of the humility of mind of Christ Jesus, and he was not Christ Jesus until he was born into this world, and the scripture states “who being in the form of God”, and that is present tense. It does not read “and having been in the form of God”, and again, Morphe, indicates something that can be seen, and you say “he emptied himself”. Emptied himself of what and in what way?
His position as head of the church in his glorified state was forseen from the foundation of the world, and therefore, the scriptures read “with the glory that I had with you before the world began”.
Jesus states:
Quote 4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.He says and “Now glorify me”, and NOT “and now glorify me again with the glory which I had with thee before the world was”.
And 1 John 1 states:
Quote 1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it , and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;Apparently, I cannot connect the same dots that you seem to be connecting. He definitely was foreordained by God and in him is the fulfillment of God's plan for humanity from the foundation of the world, but no, he did not pre-exist as a sentient person prior to his birth into this world.
Love in Christ,
MartyMarty
Quote he did not pre-exist as a sentient person prior to his birth into this world. Love in Christ,
Martythen Christ his a new creation
and if so God lied when he said he rested on the seventh day ,or the seventh day expired at Christ conception if Christ is man 100% then his father his not God ,
so what is it
Quote (terraricca @ June 30 2012,09:45) Marty Quote he did not pre-exist as a sentient person prior to his birth into this world. Love in Christ,
Martythen Christ his a new creation
and if so God lied when he said he rested on the seventh day ,or the seventh day expired at Christ conception if Christ is man 100% then his father his not God ,
so what is it
Hi Pierre:His Father is God, and he is 100% a man:
Quote 1 Timothy 2:5
King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ June 29 2012,16:08) Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 28 2012,11:28) Hey Marty, No MAN has ever seen God. But other spirit beings, like the angels of little children, see His face every day.
Matthew 18:10
“See that you do not look down on one of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven.Marty, the point is not that NO BEING WHATSOEVER can see God. The teaching is that HUMAN BEINGS cannot see God.
God does have a form (Phil 2:6), and other spirit beings can see Him. So when it is said that God is invisible, it means invisible TO US HUMAN BEINGS, not to other spirit beings. Are we agreed?
Hi Mike:Invisible means that He cannot be seen with the eye, and so in the scripture that states that the angels behold his face there must be another explanation.
Marty, angels are also said to be invisible. Do you claim that God can't see the very angels He created? How is it they have wings if they don't have an outward appearance? And what good is an outward appearance if they can never be seen by anyone? Spirit beings are invisible TO US with human eyes. They are not invisible to EACH OTHER.John 6:46
No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.Quote (942767 @ June 29 2012,16:30) He says and “Now glorify me”, and NOT “and now glorify me again with the glory which I had with thee before the world was”.
And you don't think the words “with the glory I HAD” indicates a previous glory? Isn't “again” implied if Jesus is asking to be glorified NOW with the glory HE HAD before the world began?Marty, you seem to be PURPOSELY not understanding things because to do so would put a damper on your doctrine.
But I see you are talking about Phil 2 with t8, so let's talk about it.
6 Who, existing in the form of God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,I understand Paul to be talking about a PAST existence Jesus had, prior to being made into a human being. The past tense phrase “DID NOT CONSIDER” is a sure clue.
Now, if you are considering this to be a present tense scenario, do you think it should be translated as “DOES NOT CONSIDER……..”?
And if present tense, then is Paul speaking about the exalted Jesus, who is in heaven now “existing in the form of God”?
Let's take this one verse at a time so you can lay your understanding on me
Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 30 2012,09:57) Quote (942767 @ June 29 2012,16:08) Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 28 2012,11:28) Hey Marty, No MAN has ever seen God. But other spirit beings, like the angels of little children, see His face every day.
Matthew 18:10
“See that you do not look down on one of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven.Marty, the point is not that NO BEING WHATSOEVER can see God. The teaching is that HUMAN BEINGS cannot see God.
God does have a form (Phil 2:6), and other spirit beings can see Him. So when it is said that God is invisible, it means invisible TO US HUMAN BEINGS, not to other spirit beings. Are we agreed?
Hi Mike:Invisible means that He cannot be seen with the eye, and so in the scripture that states that the angels behold his face there must be another explanation.
Marty, angels are also said to be invisible. Do you claim that God can't see the very angels He created? How is it they have wings if they don't have an outward appearance? And what good is an outward appearance if they can never be seen by anyone? Spirit beings are invisible TO US with human eyes. They are not invisible to EACH OTHER.John 6:46
No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.
Hi Mike:The scripture states that God is invisible. I do not know a scripture which states that angels are invisible. They were seen many times when God sent them specifically to someone for a purpose.
The scripture states “that no man has seen God at any time”, and Jesus is a man. He has seen the Father in the sense that he understands God's character, and has made him know to humanity through his life of obedience to God's word.
Quote John 1:18
No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.Transliteration:
exegeomai {ex-ayg-eh'-om-ahee}
Word Origin:
from 1537 and 2233
TDNT:
2:908,303
Part of Speech:
verb
Usage in the KJV:
declare 5, tell 1Total: 6
Definition:
to lead out, be leader, go before
metaph., to draw out in narrative, unfold a teaching
to recount, rehearse
to unfold, declare
the things relating to God
used in Greek writing of the interpretation of things sacred and divine, oracles, dreams, etc.Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ June 30 2012,16:55) Quote (terraricca @ June 30 2012,09:45) Marty Quote he did not pre-exist as a sentient person prior to his birth into this world. Love in Christ,
Martythen Christ his a new creation
and if so God lied when he said he rested on the seventh day ,or the seventh day expired at Christ conception if Christ is man 100% then his father his not God ,
so what is it
Hi Pierre:His Father is God, and he is 100% a man:
Quote 1 Timothy 2:5
King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;Love in Christ,
Marty
Martyanswer all the questions,is Christ a new creation ??
Quote (942767 @ June 29 2012,17:12) Hi Mike: The scripture states that God is invisible. I do not know a scripture which states that angels are invisible.
Look at Col 1:16 and John 3:8. Are you going to seriously claim that angels, as spirit beings, are not invisible to human beings?Why then would God have to open the eyes of Balaam and Elisha's servant to see them? If they were not invisible to us, then Balaam and Elisha's servant would have seen them the whole time, right?
Quote (942767 @ June 29 2012,17:12) The scripture states “that no man has seen God at any time”, and Jesus is a man.
Very good, Marty. So how could Jesus, “a man”, have seen God like he said he did……………..unless he had seen God BEFORE he was made into the likeness of a human being?Quote (terraricca @ June 30 2012,10:15) Quote (942767 @ June 30 2012,16:55) Quote (terraricca @ June 30 2012,09:45) Marty Quote he did not pre-exist as a sentient person prior to his birth into this world. Love in Christ,
Martythen Christ his a new creation
and if so God lied when he said he rested on the seventh day ,or the seventh day expired at Christ conception if Christ is man 100% then his father his not God ,
so what is it
Hi Pierre:His Father is God, and he is 100% a man:
Quote 1 Timothy 2:5
King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;Love in Christ,
Marty
Martyanswer all the questions,is Christ a new creation ??
Hi Pierre:In Genesis 1 God said:
Quote 26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
And in 1 Corinthians Paul said:
Quote 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit Jesus is called the “Last Adam”, and so, when God made man in his own image, the first Adam was not the culmination of this. The first man, Adam was made “a living soul”, like God in that he was a living person with a mind, a will, and emotions, Jesus is the “last Adam” of whom the scripture states:
Quote Hebrews 1
King James Version (KJV)
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
Just because God rested on the seventh day does not mean that he stopped working. The creation was finished. All men after the First Adam would be born of a woman.
Quote John 5:14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee. 15 The man departed, and told the Jews that it was Jesus, which had made him whole.
16 And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.
17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work
Love in Christ,
Marty
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