Preexistence

[Ed J]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 13 2012,15:20)

Quote (terraricca @ May 12 2012,18:22) Mike the problem is that they want to see THE WORD OF GOD ” as the WORDS of God……… Correct Pierre.

Hi Mike,

Are you guys suggestion that Jesus is only one word?     …if so, which word would that be?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Ed J]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 13 2012,15:20)

But their mock confusion becomes transparent the minute they admit that “the Word of God” in Rev 19:13 refers to the PERSON Jesus Christ.

Hi Mike,

Rev.19:13 refers to God's “HolySpirit”.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Ed J]

Quote (t8 @ May 13 2012,22:13)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 13 2012,18:41) Which ANGEL was God speaking about that was made the SON OF GOD or do you now admit you were wrong to say Jesus was an angel? Nick I beleive you are wrong on this. Here is why: “Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the Lord of hosts.” John the Baptist is called a messenger/angel. “Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me” Confirmed here. Matthew 11:10 “For this is he, of whom it is WRITTEN, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.” Jesus Christ is also called the angel/messenger in the second part of the verse.

Hi T8,

I disagree with you, and here's why:
John prepared the way, which was the way
of “God's Word” becoming flesh. (see John 1:14)
Matthew 11:10 is entirely about John the baptist!

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 12 2012,22:41)

Hi MB, Which ANGEL was God speaking about that was made the SON OF GOD or do you now admit you were wrong to say Jesus was an angel? Heb 1 3-4?

Nick,

The question is:  “To which of the angels did God say, 'You are my Son' ? “, right?  Could the answer be, “Jesus is the angel to whom God said, 'You are my Son' . “ ?

There are verses that distinguish Jesus from “the angels”, and there are verses that teach Jesus is a spirit messenger of his God – which is the definition of “angel” in the first place.

You'd be better off trying to prove your case using one of those verse that list Jesus as someone other than “the angels” – because you won't prove it from the question asked in Heb 1:5, for the answer to that question could simply be “JESUS”.

But Nick, I mentioned yesterday that this is not the right thread for this subject that you and I have discussed already at length in the proper threads.  So it is very tellling that instead of dealing with the preexistence points I'm making, you keep bringing up this “angel” thing.  A diversion, perhaps?

[Ed J]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 14 2012,02:10)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 12 2012,22:41) Hi MB, Which ANGEL was God speaking about that was made the SON OF GOD or do you now admit you were wrong to say Jesus was an angel? Heb 1 3-4? Nick, The question is:  “To which of the angels did God say, 'You are my Son' ? “, right?  Could the answer be, “Jesus is the angel to whom God said, 'You are my Son' . “ ? There are verses that distinguish Jesus from “the angels”, and there are verses that teach Jesus is a spirit messenger of his God – which is the definition of “angel” in the first place. You'd be better off trying to prove your case using one of those verse that list Jesus as someone other than “the angels” – because you won't prove it from the question asked in Heb 1:5, for the answer to that question could simply be “JESUS”. But Nick, I mentioned yesterday that this is not the right thread for this subject that you and I have discussed already at length in the proper threads.  So it is very tellling that instead of dealing with the preexistence points I'm making, you keep bringing up this “angel” thing.  A diversion, perhaps?

Hi Mike, how about this verse then?

“For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.” (Heb 2:5)

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Ed J @ May 13 2012,05:38)

Does 1Cor 8:6 overrule 1Cor 8:5?   MANY scriptures?

Hi Ed,

1 Corinthians 8:5
For even if there are those called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many gods and many lords),

Who exactly are these gods in heaven of whom Paul writes?  

2 Kings 1:16
“This is what the LORD says: Is it because there is no God in Israel for you to consult that you have sent messengers to consult Baal-Zebub, the god of Ekron?

2 Corinthians 4:4
The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

Ed, the one called a god by both Jehovah and Paul in these two scriptures is none other than Satan.  Here is Webster's definition of “god”:
Any of various beings conceived of as supernatural, immortal, and having special powers over the lives and affairs of people and the course of nature.

Not only does this definition fit Satan to a T, but God Almighty Himself called him a god in 2 Kings 1:16.  And what about Isaiah 9:6?

6 For to us a child is born,
  to us a son is given,
  and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
  Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
  Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

This time Jehovah is speaking about Jesus, foretelling that he would be known as a mighty god.

Ed, I don't have the time or patience to go through all of this with you YET AGAIN, nor is this the thread in which to discuss this matter at length. Let me suffice to say that there are indeed many gods mentioned all throughout the scriptures. One of them actually brought wrath down upon the Israelites during a battle. Some of them were able to perform great signs and wonders that (up to a point) matched the signs and wonders Jehovah did through Moses in Egypt.

Your understanding that there literally exists only one god is the popular understanding – and has been for ages. The problem is that that understanding is simply not the scriptural truth of the matter.

[Ed J]

Hi Mike, 1 Cor. 8:6 is the conclusion of the matter.

But to us there is but one God, the Father,
of whom are all things, and we in him;” (1 Corinthians 8:6)

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Ed J @ May 13 2012,09:17)

Hi Mike, how about this verse then? “For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.” (Heb 2:5)

Ed, read what I just said to Nick:

But Nick, I mentioned yesterday that this is not the right thread for this subject that you and I have discussed already at length in the proper threads.  So it is very tellling that instead of dealing with the preexistence points I'm making, you keep bringing up this “angel” thing.  A diversion, perhaps?

There is a thread entitled “Is Jesus an angel of God?” – as well as other threads in which to discuss this issue.  But this thead is entitled “Preexistence”.  I have made some scriptural points in the last couple of pages dealing with the actual subject of this thread.  Why not try addressing those posts?

[Ed J]

Hi Mike,

I believe we all preexisted.
But Jesus was never an Angel,
as Hebrews 2:5 clearly illustrates.

Any particular points you want addressed?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Ed J @ May 13 2012,05:42)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 13 2012,02:32) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 10 2012,21:48) Hi MB, As you suggest Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Nick, Look at verse 2.  Through whom did God make the worlds? Hi Mike, God's HolySpirit did because of (or though) Jesus' crucifixion. (see Rev.13:8)

What do you mean by “God's Holy Spirit”, Ed?  Aren't you the one who insists that God doesn't HAVE a Holy Spirit, but IS the Holy Spirit?  How then do you bring yourself to write “God's Holy Spirit”?  

Anyway, the answer according to the scripture is:  His Son.

Do you see that?   God made the worlds through HIS SON.  That couldn't be unless God had a Son before the worlds were made through him.

Nor were the ages (worlds/universe) made AFTER Jesus was crucified.  Nor does Rev 13:8 truly say what the KJV translators mistakenly rendered it as saying.

So once again, you have gone in to overdrive mode, trying hard to force the scriptures to teach what you WANT them to teach.  But the simple answer to the question, as is evident from the words I bolded above, is:  God made the worlds through His Son.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Ed J @ May 13 2012,09:47)

Hi Mike, 1 Cor. 8:6 is the conclusion of the matter. But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him;” (1 Corinthians 8:6)

And there is but ONE Lord, Jesus Christ, THROUGH WHOM all things came.

Ed:
1. Is there LITERALLY only ONE lord in existence? Nope. So you are obviously understanding the ONE god part wrong as well.

2. How could all things have come through Jesus Christ if Jesus Christ didn't even exist until the spirit of the anointing “merged” with Jesus of Nazareth at the Jordan?

[Ed J]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 14 2012,02:59)

Quote (Ed J @ May 13 2012,05:42) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 13 2012,02:32) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 10 2012,21:48) Hi MB, As you suggest Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Nick, Look at verse 2.  Through whom did God make the worlds? Hi Mike, God's HolySpirit did because of (or though) Jesus' crucifixion. (see Rev.13:8) What do you mean by “God's Holy Spirit”, Ed?  Aren't you the one who insists that God doesn't HAVE a Holy Spirit, but IS the Holy Spirit?  How then do you bring yourself to write “God's Holy Spirit”?   Anyway, the answer according to the scripture is:  His Son. Do you see that?   God made the worlds through HIS SON.  That couldn't be unless God had a Son before the worlds were made through him. Nor were the ages (worlds/universe) made AFTER Jesus was crucified.  Nor does Rev 13:8 truly say what the KJV translators mistakenly rendered it as saying. So once again, you have gone in to overdrive mode, trying hard to force the scriptures to teach what you WANT them to teach.  But the simple answer to the question, as is evident from the words I bolded above, is:  God made the worlds through His Son.

Hi Mike,

We are created in God's image.
Do you have a Spirit? So does God.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Ed J]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 14 2012,03:03)

Quote (Ed J @ May 13 2012,09:47) Hi Mike, 1 Cor. 8:6 is the conclusion of the matter. But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him;” (1 Corinthians 8:6) And there is but ONE Lord, Jesus Christ, THROUGH WHOM all things came.   Ed: 1.  Is there LITERALLY only ONE lord in existence?  Nope.  So you are obviously understanding the ONE god part wrong as well. 2.  How could all things have come through Jesus Christ if Jesus Christ didn't even exist until the spirit of the anointing “merged” with Jesus of Nazareth at the Jordan?

Hi Mike,

Mike, do you have more than one God?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[terraricca]

Quote (Ed J @ May 14 2012,10:53)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 14 2012,03:03) Quote (Ed J @ May 13 2012,09:47) Hi Mike, 1 Cor. 8:6 is the conclusion of the matter. But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him;” (1 Corinthians 8:6) And there is but ONE Lord, Jesus Christ, THROUGH WHOM all things came.   Ed: 1.  Is there LITERALLY only ONE lord in existence?  Nope.  So you are obviously understanding the ONE god part wrong as well. 2.  How could all things have come through Jesus Christ if Jesus Christ didn't even exist until the spirit of the anointing “merged” with Jesus of Nazareth at the Jordan? Hi Mike, Mike, do you have more than one God? God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

edj

only one almighty God of all creation ,and then his son the god he made and created through and for whom all things were created ,

God almighty can make out of anyone a god as he wishes just like he did with Moses ,

do you not believe scriptures ??

[terraricca]

edj

Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born, what is it mean TO US it sure does not mean to God right ??but to humankind right
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

this is why God as send his son to save humankind ,he was send to become flesh and give it up for humankind,

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Ed J @ May 13 2012,10:53)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 14 2012,03:03) Quote (Ed J @ May 13 2012,09:47) Hi Mike, 1 Cor. 8:6 is the conclusion of the matter. But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him;” (1 Corinthians 8:6) And there is but ONE Lord, Jesus Christ, THROUGH WHOM all things came.   Ed: 1.  Is there LITERALLY only ONE lord in existence?  Nope.  So you are obviously understanding the ONE god part wrong as well. 2.  How could all things have come through Jesus Christ if Jesus Christ didn't even exist until the spirit of the anointing “merged” with Jesus of Nazareth at the Jordan? Hi Mike, Mike, do you have more than one God? God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

There is but one God we are to worship as God. He is the ONLY Omniscient Creator of All Things.

But He is not the only god in existence.

[Ed J]

Quote (terraricca @ May 14 2012,04:21)

Quote (Ed J @ May 14 2012,10:53) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 14 2012,03:03) Quote (Ed J @ May 13 2012,09:47) Hi Mike, 1 Cor. 8:6 is the conclusion of the matter. But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him;” (1 Corinthians 8:6) And there is but ONE Lord, Jesus Christ, THROUGH WHOM all things came.   Ed: 1.  Is there LITERALLY only ONE lord in existence?  Nope.  So you are obviously understanding the ONE god part wrong as well. 2.  How could all things have come through Jesus Christ if Jesus Christ didn't even exist until the spirit of the anointing “merged” with Jesus of Nazareth at the Jordan? Hi Mike, Mike, do you have more than one God? God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org edj only one almighty God of all creation ,and then his son the god he made and created through and for whom all things were created , God almighty can make out of anyone a god as he wishes just like he did with Moses , do you  not believe scriptures ??

PIERRE,

GOD didn't make Jesus into 'a god' or Moses either.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[NickHassan]

Hi MB,
You say
“2. How could all things have come through Jesus Christ if Jesus Christ didn't even exist until the spirit of the anointing “merged” with Jesus of Nazareth at the Jordan? “

By the wisdom of God.
The unity between Jesus and the Spirit is utter even unto history.

[terraricca]

Quote (Ed J @ May 14 2012,13:31)

Quote (terraricca @ May 14 2012,04:21) Quote (Ed J @ May 14 2012,10:53) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 14 2012,03:03) Quote (Ed J @ May 13 2012,09:47) Hi Mike, 1 Cor. 8:6 is the conclusion of the matter. But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him;” (1 Corinthians 8:6) And there is but ONE Lord, Jesus Christ, THROUGH WHOM all things came.   Ed: 1.  Is there LITERALLY only ONE lord in existence?  Nope.  So you are obviously understanding the ONE god part wrong as well. 2.  How could all things have come through Jesus Christ if Jesus Christ didn't even exist until the spirit of the anointing “merged” with Jesus of Nazareth at the Jordan? Hi Mike, Mike, do you have more than one God? God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org edj only one almighty God of all creation ,and then his son the god he made and created through and for whom all things were created , God almighty can make out of anyone a god as he wishes just like he did with Moses , do you  not believe scriptures ?? PIERRE, GOD didn't make Jesus into 'a god' or Moses either. God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

edj

Ex 4:16 He will speak to the people for you, and it will be as if he were your mouth and as if you were God to him.

this is the same with Christ

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 13 2012,14:44)

Hi MB, You say “2.  How could all things have come through Jesus Christ if Jesus Christ didn't even exist until the spirit of the anointing “merged” with Jesus of Nazareth at the Jordan? “ By the wisdom of God. The unity between Jesus and the Spirit is utter even unto history.

Nick,

We are all quite aware of what you claim. It's just that your understanding has no scriptural support, and causes many scriptural contradictions.

Don't ever lose sight of the fact that this was, according to your own words, “a concept that came to you”, and as such, should not take precedence over God's written word.

[Author]

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