Preexistence

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ April 15 2012,09:06)

Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 15 2012,14:59)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 15 2012,07:42)

Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 14 2012,14:18)

Mike,

You are a laugh in that you continuously get owned on this forum that you co-moderate! :laugh:

Is that what you call RUNNING AWAY from anyone who asks you to stand and defend your flawed doctrine, Frank? “Owning” them?

Mike,

It is quite obvious that it is you that promotes a flawed doctrine, not I!

Preexistent Glory?

The Glory Of Messiah

Let’s begin this study by looking at a verse John (Yochanan) wrote used by “pre-
existent Messiah” proponents to prove Yeshua existed as some type of pre-existent
being.

John 17:5 “Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the gloryG1391 which
I had with You before the world was.

It would seem that Yeshua had some type of glory before the world was. This verse is
a favorite for those pushing a pre-existent Messiah. From a casual reading it would
seem as though the Anointed existed before the world was created. But, this doctrine
totally disregards the WHOLE of Scripture! We will start from John 17:1 and reading in
context of the Bible see what is going on here.

John 17:1 Yeshua spoke these things; and lifting up His eyes to heaven, He said,
“Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You,

Here we see Yeshua is praying to the Father. Now notice Yeshua is asking to be
glorified, showing he has not yet received this glory being spoken of. Keep this in
mind. Also keep in mind Yeshua is speaking to the Father; this is also important.
Continuing…

2 even as You (the Father) gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You
have given Him, He may give eternal life.

From verse 2 we see Yeshua was given authority over all flesh from the Father, he
did not always have it! Remember this is Yeshua himself speaking. This is just one
example showing Yeshua couldn’t be YAH because YAH has always been sovereign
over all creation; terrestrial beings, celestial beings, calamity, Satan and even Yeshua
(1 Chr 29:11, Psa 24:1, 50:10, 103:19, 135:6, Dan 4:34-35, John 14:28, 20:17, 1 Cor
3:23, 1 Cor 11:3, Rev 3:2,12, Job 1:9-12; 2:4-6, Job 12:9,10, 42:2, Psalm 33:10,11,
115:3, Isa 43:13, 46:10, 55:11, Pro 21:1, Jer 10:13, Acts 17:26,28, Lam 3:37,38, Dan
2:21, Amos 3:6, Ex 4:11,21, 7:2-4, 1 Sam 2:6-10, 1 Kings 22:19-23, Job 42:11, Pro
16:4, Is 44:18, 45:7, 63:17)! Let’s continue reading.

3″This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true El (The Father), and
Yeshua Messiah whom You have sent.

Here we see Yeshua declaring that the Father is the only true Power/El or as often
inappropriately translated “God.”

Mark 10:18 And Yeshua said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good
except God alone.

On more than one occasion Yeshua denies being the one true Power (God). Paul
confirms that only the Father is the true Power.

1 Corinthians 8:4-6 Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols,
we know that there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and that there is no
God (El/Power) but one. 5For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven
or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 6yet for us there is
but one God (El/Power), the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for
Him; and one Lord, Yeshua Messiah, by whom are all things, and we exist through
Him.
2

This is not new, the prophets understood this and taught that YAH was and is the
only true Power (God)!

Jer 10:10 But YHWH is the true Elohim (Power, Might or Strength); He is the living
El and the everlasting King At His wrath the earth quakes, And the nations cannot
endure His indignation.

Deuteronomy 4:35 “To you it was shown that you might know that YHWH, He is
Elohim; there is no other besides Him… 39″Know therefore today, and take it to
your heart, that YHWH, He is Elohim in heaven above and on the earth below;
there is no other.

Malachi 2:10-11 “Do we not all have one Father? Has not one El created us? Why
do we deal treacherously each against his brother so as to profane the covenant
of our fathers? 11″Judah has dealt treacherously, and an abomination has been
committed in Israel and in Jerusalem; for Judah has profaned the sanctuary of
YHWH which He loves and has married the daughter of a foreign god.

This eliminates any thought that Yeshua is YAH or the second member of some type
of trinity or godhead in the Tanakh (Old Testament)! Yeshua is excluded from these
pre-existent scenarios. So what is this glory he is talking about then? In Scripture a
person may possess something which YAH has given them before they actually
existed to receive it. Follow me now. For example:

Genesis 15:18 On that day YHWH made a covenant with Abram, saying, “To your
descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt as far as the great
river, the river Euphrates…”

The descendants of Abraham were given land from YAH. Now at this point Abraham's
descendants did not exist, yet YAH’s promise is worded as though it has been fulfilled
already. This is what has taken place with Yeshua. We also had glory before we
existed as well. To see this clearly all you have to do is continuing reading this same
chapter.

22″The gloryG1391 which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may
be one, just as We are one;

These are future believers who are not yet in existence. To see this let’s go back to
verse 20.

20″I do not ask on behalf of these alone (the disciples with him at that moment),
but for those also who believe in Me through their word;

The context shows these are future believers. The Messiah has given us glory before
we even existed. Not only did we have glory before we existed but the Most High also
loved us too.

23”I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world
may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me.

We had the love of the Father before we existed just as Yeshua had it before he
existed as well.

24″Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I
am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me
before the foundation of the world.

Glory was given to the disciples even though the
y were not even alive. They already
possessed it as the Messiah possessed it, though they did not actually have it and
3
were not living. The same with YAH’s love! We had YAH’s love even before we
existed, the same as Yeshua! Yeshua did not already exist with YAH. Not only that,
but verse 22 clearly shows that John 10:30 is speaking about one in mind, will and
purpose. This glory Yeshua was speaking of was ordained for him before the world
was. This is nothing new. This is called foreordination. What does it mean to
foreordain?

Dictionary: fore·or·dain tr.v. -dained, -dain·ing, -dains. To determine or appoint
beforehand; predestine.

The Bible speaks of foreordination all throughout its pages. We were chosen and
sanctified before we even existed.

Ephesians 1:3-12 Blessed be the El and Father of our Lord Yeshua Messiah, who
has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in
Messiah, 4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we
would be holy and blameless before Him In love

Using the same line of thinking folks use in John 17:5 we would be led to believe that
all believers were chosen back in the days when they pre-existed before the earth
was created.

5He predestined us to adoption as sons through Yeshua Messiah to Himself,
according to the kind intention of His will, 6to the praise of the glory of His grace,
which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 7In Him we have redemption
through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of
His grace 8which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight 9He made known to
us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in
Him 10with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that
is, the summing up of all things in Messiah, things in the heavens and things on
the earth. In Him 11also we have obtained an inheritance, having been
predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His
will, 12to the end that we who were the first to hope in Messiah would be to the
praise of His glory.

Look at that! We are chosen and predestined to be adopted sons and receive YAH’s
grace before we existed. Just like John chapter 17, these verses pertain to YAH's
foreordained plan, not to a pre-existent being or beings. The Most High had
everything planned before the foundation of the world. The Most High knew man
would fall and would need to be redeemed, so being that He knows the beginning
from the end…

(Isaiah 46:9-119″Remember the former things long past, For I am El, and there is
no other; I am El, and there is no one like Me, 10Declaring the end from the
beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, 'My
purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure'; 11Calling
a bird of prey from the east, The man of My purpose from a far country Truly I
have spoken; truly I will bring it to pass. I have planned it, surely I will do it.)

…The Most High laid the blue print for us to be redeemed back to him.

1 Peter 1:18-21 knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like
silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, 19but
with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Messiah.
20For He was foreknownG4267 before the foundation of the world, but has
appeared in these last times for the sake of you 21who through Him are believers
in Elohim, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith
and hope are in Elohim.

4
The word translated foreknew in the NASB can and in most cases is translated
foreordained. The Greek word is proginosko. Strong’s states:

G4267 προγινώσκω proginosko prog-in-oce'-ko from 4253 and 1097; to know
beforehand, i.e. foresee:–foreknow (ordain), know (before).
The KJV translates it as such.
1 Peter 1:18-21 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with
corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by
tradition from your fathers; 19But with the precious blood of Messiah, as of a lamb
without blemish and without spot: 20Who verily was foreordained before the
foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 21Who by
him do believe in Elohim, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory;
that your faith and hope might be in Elohim.
These verses show us that Yeshua’s blood, as that of a lamb (John 1:29), would be
our propitiation for sin. This was foreknown before the foundation of the world. These
verses also show that Yeshua was in YAH foreknowledge but was made manifest in
these last days. Hebrews confirms this.

Hebrews 1:1-2 Elohim, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in
many portions and in many ways, 2in these last days has spoken to us in His Son,
whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the ages.

Why wasn't the “pre-existent Yeshua” made manifest back in Old Testament times?
Because he didn't exist at that time except in the foreordained plans of YAH. Yeshua
was foreordain to be our propitiation before the world was!
Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are
not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Yeshua was said to be the slain Lamb from the foundation of the world. Was He killed
as a pre-existent being? No! This is the foreordained plan of YAH. This is verified in
the book of Hebrews.
Hebrews 9:25-28 nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest
enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own. 26Otherwise, He
would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now
once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin
by the sacrifice of Himself. 27And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once
and after this comes judgment, 28so Christ also, having been offered once to bear
the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin,
to those who eagerly await Him.
Look at the language being used. This is all dealing with the foreordain plan of YAH
for mankind’s salvation.

Rom 8:29 For those whom He foreknew4267, He also predestined to become
conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among
many brethren;

Here we see all those who the Most High foreknew (same Greek word translated
foreordain) He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His son. All this is
before we even existed! We only existed in the mind and plans of YAH! Other
examples of foreordination exist all throughout the Bible.

5
Jeremiah 1:4-5 Now the word of YHWH came to me saying, 5″Before I formed you
in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have
appointed you a prophet to the nations.”

Jeremiah was consecrated and appointed a prophet to the nations before he was
even born. Does this mean Jeremiah pre-existed? NO! When did he actually receive
his appointment as a prophet?

Jeremiah 1:9-10 Then YHWH stretched out His hand and touched my mouth, and
YHWH said to me, “Behold, I have put My words in your mouth. 10″See, I have
appointed you this day over the nations and over the kingdoms, To pluck up and
to break down, To destroy and to overthrow, To build and to plant.”

Jeremiah’s appointment to be a prophet was made manifest the day YAH spoke with
him. But it was foreordain long before he existed.

Psalm 139:16 Your eyes have
seen my unformed substance; And in Your book
were all written the days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was not
one of them.

David says before he was even born his days were ordain for him in YAH’s book.

Ephesians 2:5-7 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive
together with Messiah (by grace you have been saved), 6and raised us up with
Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Messiah Yeshua,

Paul talks about believers already being raised and seated in heavenly places as if it
already happened.
Revelation 17:8 “The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up
out of the abyss and go to destruction And those who dwell on the earth, whose
name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world,
will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come.
So before those who are believers existed there names was already written in the
Book of Life. The Most High knew our names before we even physically existed. The
day we were born we were given the name we had before the world was. Now
getting back to this glory that Yeshua is speaking about. Now remember we read.
Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are
not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
All throughout prophecy it speaks about Yeshua being the propitiation for man’s sin.
Even the whole sacrificial system is a shadow of the Messiah. He is indeed the slain
Lamb from the foundation of the world.

Isaiah 53:5-10 But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed
for our iniquities; The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, And by His
scourging we are healed. 6All of us like sheep have gone astray, Each of us has
turned to his own way; But YHWH has caused the iniquity of us all To fall on Him.
7He was oppressed and He was afflicted, Yet He did not open His mouth; Like a
lamb that is led to slaughter, And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers, So
He did not open His mouth. 8By oppression and judgment He was taken
away; And as for His generation, who considered That He was cut off out of the
land of the living For the transgression of my people, to whom the stroke was
due? 9His grave was assigned with wicked men, Yet He was with a rich man in His
death, Because He had done no violence, Nor was there any deceit in His mouth.
10But YHWH was pleased To crush Him, putting Him to grief; If He would render
6
Himself as a guilt offering, He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days, And
the good pleasure of YHWH will prosper in His hand.

Prophecy compares this suffering servant to a slaughtered Lamb and guilt offering.
This prophecy is pointing to the future Messiah! What would happen to the Messiah
was already written. The apostles understood this.

John 1:36 and he looked at Yeshua as He walked, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of
Elohim!”
The Messiah from the foundation of the world was the Lamb of YAH not because he
pre-existed but because this was YAH’s foreordained plan! The glory that Yeshua had
was as the Lamb of YAH, in the mind and foreordained plan of YAH. Yeshua was
praying for that glory, which he had before the foundation of the world, to be brought
to fruition, so as to give unto all those who would accept him eternal life. This is why
Yeshua began in John 17:1-2 by saying, “These words spake Yeshua, and lifted up his
eyes to heaven, and said, 'Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also
may glorify thee: As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give
eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.'” Yeshua himself even asked was his
death not necessary before he could enter into his glory?
Luke 24:26 “Was it not necessary for the Messiah to suffer these things and to
enter into His glory?”

When you go to the book of Revelations we see Yeshua referred to as the Lamb all
throughout. It is at this point He receives his glory as the slain Lamb, that which was
foreordain from the foundation of the world for him.
Revelation 5:11-13 Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around
the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was
myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands, 12saying with a loud voice,
“Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and
might and honor and glory and blessing.” 13And every created thing which is in
heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in
them, I heard saying, “To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be
blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever.”
So here we see Yeshua being glorified as the slain Lamb, not as YAH or some type of
pre-existent being! He is honored as the Lamb throughout Revelations, not as YAH.
Even after his resurrection Yeshua still has an El (God) and Father who he answers to.

John 20:17 Yeshua said to her, “Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended
to the Abba; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I ascend to My Abba and
your Abba, and My Elohim and your Elohim.'”

1 Corinthians 3:23 and you belong to Messiah; and Messiah belongs to Elohim.

1 Corinthians 11:3 But I want you to understand that Messiah is the head of every
man, and the man is the head of a woman, and Elohim is the head of Messiah.

Revelation 3:2 'Wake up, and strengthen the things that remain, which were
about to die; for I have not found your deeds completed in the sight of My
(Yeshua’s) El.

Revelation 3:12 He who overcomes, I (Yeshua) will make him a pillar in the
temple of My El, and he will not go out from it anymore; and I will write on him
the name of My El, and the name of the city of My El, the new Jerusalem, which
comes down out of heaven from My El, and My new name.

7
The glory the Messiah had before the world was, was that as the slain Lamb who
would die for the sins of man and through him we would receive eternal life thereby
sharing in his glory.

Peace & Blessing

Amar
SOURCE

you are mixing ; the Messiah s glory that he should show wen he comes,and wen he be and lives among men,

and the Glory that the Son had prior to come down from heaven ,

and also the Glory of the Son at his return to his father after his fulfillment of his father will ,will receive,

this as nothing to be mixed with Gods glory

Pierre,

Is it not yet clear to you that I am not a worshiper of YOUR mere “God” and author of confusion?

April 14, 2012 at 10:25 pm#292364

Blocked

The one who believes the words, “I came down from heaven” is not the confused one, Frank.

The confused one is the one who reads those words, and knowing that they don't fit into his own doctrine, sets out trying to twist and distort those words into nonsensical, and usually quite humorous alternate meanings.

April 14, 2012 at 10:27 pm#292365

Participant

Hi MB,
Did your lesser god need anointing?

April 14, 2012 at 10:29 pm#292366

Participant

Hi MB,
You constantly echo the misconceptions of the natural men who could not grasp what Jesus Christ said.

April 14, 2012 at 10:37 pm#292374

Blocked

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 14 2012,16:27)

Hi MB,
Did your lesser god need anointing?

Yep. But why? Oh, that's right – because he EMPTIED himself of the form of God he was existing in to be made as a human being for a while.

April 14, 2012 at 10:42 pm#292376

Participant

Hi MB,
The Word was not a lesser god.
The Word was God

April 14, 2012 at 10:45 pm#292378

http://frank4yahweh.tripod.com/CameDownFromHeaven.html

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 15 2012,09:25)

The one who believes the words, “I came down from heaven” is not the confused one, Frank.

Yahshua Came Down From Heaven
By Voy Wilks
1990 – Revised 1993

“For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him who sent me; …” (John 6:38, KJV).

I have searched the Scriptures at length and (assuming I overlooked none), have found that the Apostle John is the only witness which says Yahshua came down from heaven. John mentions this several times. They are listed here for your convenience:

John 3:13,31; 6:32-33, 38, 41-42, 50-51, 58, 62; 8:42; 16:27-28; 17:8

Matthew, Mark, Luke, Paul, Peter, James, and Jude make no mention that Yahshua “came down from heaven”.

Some believe that every major doctrine must have two witnesses. On this major point, however, we have only one witness who testifies that “Yahshua came down from heaven.” Such an astonishing bit of history as this should have several witnesses. But no. There is only one witness – the Apostle John. What are we to make of this surprising bit of information?

Actually, my view is, when biblical Scriptures are involved, only one witness is needed. However, something as outstanding as this would surely have been mentioned by other New Testament writers if this is to be accepted as literally true. From the list above, we see that no other New Testament writer records that “Yahshua came down from heaven.”
Figures of Speech
In reading through the book of Saint John, we discover that he indulges in many figures of speech; more than any other New Testament writer. Perhaps some will protest “But John wrote exact quotations from the Master's lips!” Perhaps this is true. If so, the other New Testament writers evidently gave the meaning of Yahshua's messages, rather than the exact quotations. Let us note an example:

“… Yahshua stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on me as the Scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water” (John 7:37,38 KJV).

Dropping the flowery figures of speech, the real message is: “One day my disciples will receive the Holy Spirit in a most powerful way” (John 3:39; Acts 2:4).

Compare John's report (above) with Lukes report on the same topic:

“If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children; how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those that ask him?” (Luke 11:13).
Misleading the Opposition
On many occasions Yahshua spoke in metaphors and in ambiguous parables to purposely mislead the opposition.

“And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. … Therefore speak I unto them in parables; because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand …” (Mt. 13:10-15).

“… unto them that are without (cf. Rev. 22:15), all these things are done in parables: that seeing they may see, and ,not perceive; and hearing may hear, and not understand; lest at anytime they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them” (Mark 4:11,12).

Another example: “Yahshua said unto them, Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up” (John 2:19). He spoke of his death and resurrection, not the temple building (John 2:21,22).

On some occasions, even his disciples did not understand his parables, and asked him to explain (Mt. 13:36; Mark 8:14-17).

On other occasions Yahshua answered questions with questions; often, with questions they did not understand, or could not respond to (Mark 11:29; 12:34b). On still other occasions, he purposely made them angry, so that they wished to kill him (Mt. 23:17,19,24,25,33; Mark 7:19-23; John 7:32-46).
Yahshua Pre-existed (In the Father's Plan)
Evidently Yahshua pre-existed, but only in the sense that he was in the Father's glorious plans, and had been since the foundation of the world (John 17:5, 24), {See the paper dealing with this Scripture}. In the same sense, Yahshua was “slain from the foundation of the world” (Rev. 13:8). Obviously, he was not literally and actually killed before the world was made, but it was in the Father's plan that the Messiah would be slain to redeem mankind.

In a similar way and in the same sense, Yahshua “came down from heaven.” That is, he went out (according to plan) preaching by the authority of heaven; that is, by Yahweh's authority.

Since both the Father and the plans were in heaven, Yahshua did, in this sense, come down from heaven. Therefore, when he had completed all assignments planned for his first coming, he ascended to heaven where he was before” (in Yahweh's plan) (John 6:62). Remember, Yahshua spoke in parables for the express purpose of blinding the Jewish opposition (Mt. 13:10-15; Mark 4:11,12).
Every Good Gift Comes Down From Above
Yahshua “came down from heaven.” A similar statement reads as follows:

“Every good gift and every perfect gift IS FROM ABOVE, and cometh down from the Father of lights, …” (James 1:17).

James spoke of spiritual gifts in particular, but this is true of everything, including the physical blessings we receive. Take the lowly potato: we dig it from the ground. However, if it were not for the “blessings which come down from above,” the ground would not produce the potato for our use. All good gifts come down from above, from the Father of lights. This truth can be expressed in any one, or all, of the following ways:

Gifts from above, Gifts from heaven
Blessings of heaven, Blessings from Yahweh

As noted above, James spoke especially of spiritual blessings. Undoubtedly, our greatest spiritual blessing is Yahshua, the Messiah. He was in the Father's plan, even before the world was made (Eph. 1:10; RSV; 1 Peter 1:20), therefore Yahshua's coming is a “good and perfect gift from above” (James 1:17). Just as the lowly potato appears in the ground as a gift from above, so Yahshua (born of a woman) appeared as a gift from above. Yahshua, as well as the potato, had ancestors, not a pre-existence, as indicated in the following Scriptures:

David, “… being a prophet, and knowing that Yahweh had sworn with an oath to him, that of THE FRUIT OF HIS LOINS, according to the FLESH, he would raise up Messiah to sit on his [David's] throne; …” (Acts 2:30; Rev. 5:5; 22:16; Heb. 7:14; Jer. 33:20-22).

We have considered the blessings which come down from above. On some occasions evil also comes down from above – from Yahweh” (Micah 1:12). On this occasion Yahweh brought it about by the use of invading armies who took the people captive (Micah 1:6,16). No pre-existence was involved.
John's Baptism
Yahshua asked the opposition, “The baptism of John, whence was it? From heaven, or form men?” (Mt. 21:25; Mark 11:30; Luke 20:4).

Obviously, John's baptism was “from heaven.” Metonymy is used here. “Heaven” an euphemism, an expression indicating the authority of heaven; an epithet designating Yahweh, the ruler in heaven. Yahweh approved and supported John, his preaching, his baptism, and his work. Just as the baptism of John came from heaven, so Yahshua came from heaven. Both John and Yahshua were approved (authorized) by Yahweh – “our Father who is in heaven” (Mt. 6:9).

Other Scriptures speak in a similar fashion, as is indic
ated by these references:

As opposed to earthly envy, sensual and devilish thoughts and conduct, “… the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be entreated, full of mercy and good fruits. …” (James 3:16,17).

“They set their mouth against the heavens, …” (Ps. 73:9).

“I have sinned against heaven …” (Luke 15:18,21).

The thought is, “wisdom from above,” and the “heaven(s): are euphemisms for Yahweh and his authority and his influence.

Even the expression, the “kingdom of heaven,” is revealed. The kingdom is not in heaven. Instead it was (and will be) on the earth. However, it is planned and authorized by him who is in heaven; Yahweh, the Most High El.

Conclusion
How can we be sure the above understanding is correct? We can be sure because Scriptures in the Old and New Testaments indicate the following evidences:

There is only one Yahweh (Neh. 9:6; Ps. 83:18), therefore Yahshua was never a Yahweh. See the paper, “One Lone Yahweh.”

There is only one true El (Isa 43:10,11; John 17:3), therefore Yahshua was never an El.

There is only one true Eloah (Ps. 18:31; 114:4), therefore Yahshua was never an Eloah.

There is only one true Elohim (Isa. 45:5,6; 46:6), therefore Yahshua was never an Elohim. See the paper, “Elohim: Singular or Plural?”

True Deity does not die (Deut. 32:40; Dan. 12:7), therefore Yahshua was never Deity, because he died (Acts 3:15).

Yahshua was never an angel (Heb. 1:5,13, NEB), therefore Yahshua did not pre-exist as an angel.

The fleshly (physical) body comes first. Only later comes the spiritual body (1 Cor. 15:46). This speaks directly about Yahshua's person. Therefore Yahshua did not pre-exist as a spiritual being.

Yahshua was born of a woman (Gal. 4:4), therefore Yahshua was truly flesh and blood; a human being (Heb. 2:14).

Yahshua was the “fruit of David's loins” (Acts 2:30), therefore Yahshua was fully human – flesh and blood.

Yahshua had the same origin as his brethern (Heb. 2:11), therefore Yahshua, originally, was not Deity.

Man was created a little lower than the angels, therefore Yahshua was, originally, lower than the angels (Heb. 2:6-9).

Moses predicted that Yahweh would raise up from among his brethern a prophet “like unto me” (Deut. 18:15-19). If Yahshua was Deity in human form, he would not have been “like” Moses.

Yahshua spoke in parables to purposely mislead the opposition, therefore some of his statements must not be taken literally.

Yahshua purposely angered the opposition, therefore they developed a strong desire to kill him.

Only the Apostle John reported that Yahshua came down from heaven. If literally true, we would expect other writers to report this. Since they did not, we must except this as a figure of speech, indicating that Yahshua's approval and authority came down from heaven – from Yahweh above.

The baptism of John was also “from heaven.” Did John or his baptism pre-exist?

All good and perfect gifts “come down from above, from the Father of lights.” This includes the lowly potato as well as Yahshua the Nazarene.

Both Yahshua and the potato were here, not because they pre-existed, because both had ancestors.

Brethern, Scriptures indicate Yahshua existed, even before the world began, but only in Yahweh's glorious plan (Eph. 1:9, RSV). Since both Yahweh and his plan were in heaven, Yahshua “came down from heaven.” This statement is a figure of speech, indicating Yahshua's authority was from above; from Yahweh, the Most High El.

Come, Yahshua Messiah!

Note: We have more than 60 papers about the non-pre-existence of Yahshua. If interested, PLEASE ASK FOR THEM.

Also see:

Study 7: The Origin of Jesus
Digression 23: “I Came Down From Heaven”
http://www.christadelphians.com/bibleba….en.html

“The Glory I Had With You Before The World Was”
http://frank4yahweh.tripod.com/BeforeTheWorldWas.html

April 14, 2012 at 10:49 pm#292379

Participant

“The Glory I Had With You Before The World Was”
Yahchanan [John] 17:5

Do these words mean that Yahshua was personally with the Father from the very beginning? or are they expressive of the fact that Yahweh, as a wise Architect (Hebrews 11:10), foresaw the glory of His completed plan?

The latter without doubt! This is shown beyond question because of the use of similar language in the same manner.

Thus Kepha taught that Yahshua was “foreordained before the foundation of the world but was manifested (made known) in these last times for you” (1 Kepha [Peter] 1:20). Yahchanan [John] describes him as “the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world” (Revelation 13:8).

Was Yahshua “slain from the foundation of the world”? Typically, yes, in the sacrifices provided; but literally, no.

In like manner, Yahweh, who knows the end from the beginning, foresaw the glory of His son Yahshua and proclaimed it through the prophets. The ultimate glory of Yahshua was in the mind and purpose of the Father from the very beginning.

He also provided for the ultimate glory of Messiah's followers, so that Yahshua prayed:

“The glory which You gave me, I have given them” (Yahchanan [John] 17:22).

Do Messiah's followers possess his glory now? They do not, they are merely “in hope” of it (cf. Romans 5:2).

How can Yahshua then claim to have given it to them? Only in the sense that he has provisionally bestowed it, foreknowing that they to whom it is given in promise will fulfil the conditions to ultimately receive it in reality.

Thus, an accepted follower at Yahshua's coming could well speak to Yahweh as Yahshua prayed to the Father:

“Glorify You me with the glory that I had (in promise) with You before world began!”

Yahweh foreknows the completed purpose, and knowing that He will bring it to consummation, is able to “call those things which be not as though they are” (Romans 4:17). Shaul taught:

“Yahweh chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy, without blame before Him” (Eph. 1:4).

If John 17:5 proves the pre-existence of Yahshua, Ephesians 1:4 must prove the pre-existence of all who are followers of him!

The same language is used of other men whom Yahweh has used in a special way. Of Yeremiah it is written:

“Before I formed you in the belly I knew you; and before you came forth out of the womb I sanctified you, and I ordained you a prophet unto the nations” (Yeremiah 1:5).

Does that prove the pre-existence of Yeremiah? If not, why should Yahchanan [John] 17:5 be used to teach the pre-existence of Yahshua, and so be made to conflict with many other references which speak of him as the son of David born 1900 years ago? Similar language is used of Shaul (Galatians 1:15) and others. When Yahshua returns, his accepted followers will be granted a glory similar to that bestowed upon him. They will be “conformed to the image of Father Yahweh's son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren” (Romans 8:29).
SOURCE

…

April 14, 2012 at 11:03 pm#292383

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 15 2012,09:37)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 14 2012,16:27)

Hi MB,
Did your lesser god need anointing?

Yep. But why? Oh, that's right – because he EMPTIED himself of the form of God he was existing in to be made as a human being for a while.

The Pre-existence
Philippians 2:5-11
By Voy Wilks
1/29/92

“Having this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Messiah Yahshua, who, though he was in the FORM of Elohim, did not count EQUALITY WITH YAHWEH a thing to be GRASPED, but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on the tree. Therefore Yahweh has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Yahshua every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth and every tongue should confess that Yahshua Messiah is Savior, to the glory of Yahweh the Father” (Phil. 2:5-11 RSV, Emphasis added).

If Yahshua Messiah did indeed pre-exist, then Philippians 2:5-11 would appear to lend support to this view, on the other hand, if he did not pre-exist, then these words must be accepted at face value, not in an extended, mysterious sense.

Since most if not all other Scriptures indicate Yahshua did not pre-exist except in Yahweh's plan, * it is my view that the words in Philippians 2:5-11 should be accepted at face value, as words are normally used in a natural sense. However, people love a mystery so much that one is sometimes invented where there is no mystery. Let us compare these opposite views.

o The mysterious view:
Before becoming man, Yahshua was Deity, equal with Yahweh (or nearly so), totally like Yahweh in every respect, but gave up his Deity, by changing himself from Deity (that which can not die) to a human being (which can and must die), and occupied a human form. He emptied himself, becoming a servant to the human race, then humbled himself even more and died on the tree. He has now been highly exalted by the Father.

o The straight-forward view:
Yahshua [like all men], was made in the likeness and in the image [the form] of Yahweh. He did not count equality with Yahweh a thing to be GRASPED (ruthlessly seized). Being in human form (as are all men), he emptied himself and became a servant to the human race, then humbled himself even more and died on the tree. he has now been highly exalted by the Father.

Verse six holds the key to the understanding of Paul's message. The Roman Catholic view however, is expressed in this way:

“Though he had always existed as G-d, yet he did not grasp at this equality with G-d” (Phil. 2:6 Norlie Version).

It is not true, of course, that Yahshua was (or is) “equal with Yahweh.” Yahshua reported to his disciples, “… my Father is greater than I” (John 14:28; 4:34; 10:29; 13:16; 15:20).

Nor has Yahshua “always existed as G-d.” On the contrary, Scriptures inform us there is

o Only ONE true El (Eph. 4:4,5; 1 Tim. 2:5 Bethel Edition).
o Only ONE true Elohim (Deut. 4:35,39; 1 Tim 1:17 Bethel Ed.).
o Only ONE true Yahweh (Neh. 9:5; Ps. 83:18; Isa. 43:10,11; 44:6; 45:5,6,18). These are one and the same person, the Father.

This being the case, we can forget the Roman Catholic view that Yahshua has “always existed as G-d.” The KIng James Version, the RSV, and and a number of others do not convey the message that Yahshua has always existed as Deity, as does the Norlie Version.

Phil. 2:6. Being in the “FORM OF Elohim” is not necessarily identical to “being Elohim.” In this case, there is a vast difference. Adam was created in the image and likeness of Yahweh and we, being sons of Adam, are also formed in the likeness and image (form, shape) of Yahweh. This is indicated in Scripture:

“Then Elohim said, let us make man in our 88 IMAGE, AFTER OUR LIKENESS; … So Elohim created man in HIS own IMAGE, in the IMAGE of Elohim HE created him …” (Gen. 1:26,27 RSV).

Just as other men are made in the image (shape, form) of Yahweh, so Yahshua too, was made (formed) in Yahweh's image. The Tyndale Version of 1534 reads, “… Ch-ist J-sus: Which being in the shape of G-d, …” (Phil. 2:6).

This explains why Yahshua was “found in human FORM” (Phil. 2:8), and in the LIKENESS of men” (Phil. 2:7); as well as, in the FORM of El” (Phil. 2:6). Man is made in the image, the form, of Yahweh. Let us now review, point by point, the evidence given by the Apostle Paul:

Phil. 2:6. Like other men, Yahshua was in the form (image, shape) of Elohim. Perhaps there were in Paul's day those who claimed that Yahshua was not really a human being, but was Divine (that is, Deity). If so, verses 7-9 should have dispelled this notion.

Phil 2:6. Yahshua felt that he should not try to GRASP (seize illegally) equality with Elohim. Does this refer to a time BEFORE he lived as a man; a time when he is assumed to have pre-existed as Deity? No. This evidently speaks of a time after his resurrection from the dead.

Phil. 2:7. Yahshua was BORN in the LIKENESS of men (Gal. 4:4; Heb. 2:11,12,16; Luke 2:11; Mt. 1:18; 2:1).

Phil. 2:7. Yahshua took the FORM (shape, likeness) of a slave. Was this before, or after, his birth to Mary? It was only after. It was after he was BORN as a human being that he took the roll of a servant; as one who serves (Luke 22:7).

Phil. 2:7. Yahshua EMPTIED himself. Are we to assume this refers to a time when Yahshua gave up Deity to become a man? No. This refers to his denial of the pleasures and longings of a normal, physical life (wife, children, family, home, and finally his death on the tree), so that he could better fulfill his mission as a prospective Redeemer. There is no allusion to the supposed giving up of a former life as a Deity in the heavens. There is only ONE true Deity, remember. This one true El is Yahweh the Father (Rom. 16:27; John 5:44, Bethel Edition). ***

Phil. 2:8. Being found in HUMAN FORM, as are all men, Yahshua humbled himself and became obedient, even to the death on the tree. This is absolute proof that Yahshua was not, originally, a Deity (an El); because the very meaning and essence of Deity is an indestructible life. It is impossible for a true El to die. Spiritual beings are not subject to death (Gen. 21:33; Deut. 32:40,41; Isa. 40:28, Bethel Edition). *** Deity and death are opposite and contradictory terms. Spiritual beings possess INDESTRUCTIBLE life (Heb. 7:16 RSV). therefore Yahshua, who was dead for 72 hours, did not at any time exist as a divine person (a Deity, an El), BEFORE his resurrection from the dead (Heb. 7:16).

Phil. 2:9. There fore (meaning, “for this reason;” that is; his people {Verse 8}), For this reason Yahweh has highly exalted Yahshua. When? BEFORE he lived as a man? No. According to the Apostle Peter and Paul, he was highly exalted AFTER his resurrection from the dead (Rom.1:3,4; Acts 2:33; 5:31).

Phil 2:9. Yahshua has been given a name above every name. Since many others have had the name “Yahshua,” this consist of greater honor that is implied by the name alone, For example: By his RESURRECTION FROM THE DEAD, Yahshua has been DECLARED to be all of the following and more:

(1) The SON of Yahweh (Rom. 1:4; Heb. 1:4,5).
(2) The promised MESSIAH (Acts 2:36).
(3) Yahweh's anointed (Acts 4:26 RSV).
(4) A PRINCE and a SAVIOR (Acts 5:31; 13:23).
(5) Our Passover Lamb (1 Cor. 5:7).
(6) The Media
tor between mankind and the heavenly Father (1 Tim. 2:5; Heb. 9:15; 12:24).

If he had not arose from the dead he would have filled none of these offices. Until that momentous event, these were only planed for him – from ancient times.

Phil 2:10,11. Every knee in heaven and on earth shall bow to Yahshua, and every tongue will confess that he is the Messiah, etc.

Objections

Objections may be voiced from the statement above, Yahshua did not try to grasp (seize illegally) equality with Yahweh” (Phil. 2:6). Other versions indicate this is the correct understanding, as can be noted in the following quotations:

o “… he did not regard equality with G-d something to be POSSESSED BY FORCE” The Jewish New Testament).

o “…yet he did not think to SNATCH AT equality with G-d, …” (New English Bible).

o “… but he did not think that BY FORCE he should try to become equal with G-d, …” (Good News Bible).

o “Who, being in the form of Elohim did NOT strive to claim for himself equality with Yahweh: …” (Holy Name Bible).

o “… who, although he was existing in G-d's form, gave no consideration to a SEIZURE, namely, that he should be equal with G-d” (New World Translation).

Conclusion

Having carefully examined Philippians 2:5-11, we see there is no mystery. The evidence does not indicate that Yahshua pre-existed as Deity (or as an angel) before he lived as a man. Instaed, the language is plain and to the point, stating that Yahshua (like other men), was formed in the likeness (the shape) of the Most High Father, Yahweh.

Yahshua did not try to prematurely to seize by force a coveted position in the heavens, but awaited the Father's pleasure. He first enduring the sufferings on the tree and, only later, enjoyed being highly exalted by the Father.

“Searching what, or what manner of TIME the Spirit of Messiah which was in them did SIGNIFY when it testified beforehand the SUFFERINGS OF MESSIAH and the GLORY that was to FOLLOW” (1 Peter 1:11 KJV).

We can give thanks to both Yahshua Messiah, and to Yahweh the heavenly Father for their great and lasting love to mankind.

Halleluyah!

* We have about 40 separate articles dealing with the pre-existence. ASK FOR THEM.

** Ask for the paper explaining the use of “us & our” in Genesis 1:26.

*** Ask for our leaflet, “Elohim: Singular Or Plural?”

**** Ask for the papers, “Can a Spiritual Being Die?,” and, “Yahshua: Yahweh of the O.T.?”

Addendum: Phil. 2:6

“Who, being in the form of G-d, THOUGHT IT NOT ROBBERY to be equal with G-d; …” (Phil 2:6 KJV).

“Who, though he was in the form of G-d, did not count equality with G-d a thing to be GRASPED” (RSV).

Ben Wilson (Diaglott); “… did not meditate a usurpation to be like G-d.”

Footnote in The Diaglott.

The Greek word, “harpagmon, being a word of very rare occurrence, a great variety of translations have been given. The following may serve as examples:

Clarke 'Who … did not think it a matter to be earnestly desired.'
Cyprian 'Did not earnestly effect.'
Wakefield ' Did not think of eagerly retaining.'
Stuart 'Did not regard – as an object of solicitous desire.'
Sharpe 'Thought not – a thing to be seized.'
Kneeland 'Did not eagerly grasp.'
Dickinson 'Did not violently strive.'
Turnbull 'Did not meditate a usurpation'”

Other Translations

o “… he laid no claim to equality with God” (REB).

o “… did not regard equality with G-d something to be possessed by force” (The Jewish N.T.).

o “… did not think to snatch at equality with G-d” (NEB)

o “… did not think by force he should try to become equal with G-d” (Good News Bible)

o “… did not strive to claim for himself equality with Yahweh” (Holy Name Bible).

o “… who, … gave no consideration to seizure, namely that he should be equal with G-d” (NWT).

o “… did not reckon His equality with G-d a treasure to be tightly grasped” (The Weymouth New Testament Online Bible [WEY]).

o “… did not think this equality with G-d was a thing to be grasped or retained' (Amplified Bible).

o “… did not deem equality with G-d something to be grasped at” (NAB).

o “… did not regard equality with G-d a thing to be grasped” (NASB).

o “… did not consider equality with G-d something to be grasped” (NIV).

o “… counted not the being on equality with Yahweh a thing to be grasped. …” (Bethel Edition).

o “… Counted not the being on an equality with G-d a thing to be grasped; …” (ASV).

o “… Not a thing to be seized accounted the being equal with G-d. …” (Emphasised Bible).

o “… did not regard equality with G-d as something to be exploited” (RSV)

The following is an excerpt from:

Who says Christ is GOD ?
“A Refute”
written 1-14-2004
refined August 19, 2011
by DJ. Love, Bnei HaMashalim

Philippians 2:5-6
5 Let this mind (Holy Spirit) be in you, which was also in Messiah Yahshua:
6 Who, being in the form(Spiritual Image) of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God (in Spiritual Righteousness Only – Jeremiah 23:6

Oh Boy, if this misunderstanding doesn't reek of Satan (Source of Human Nature) then nothing does! Satan, who sees itself as the rightful heir of YHVH, has just used its very own selfish influence (Human Nature) to make those without understanding to think that the Messiah desires to be equal to YHVH; but it is Satan (Not Messiah) that stated it would be “Like the Most High” (Isaiah 14:14). Sounds like Satan's false messiah is the “Anti-Messiah”.
Also see: “Preexistence Revealed” from the above web site.

Following is an excerpt from:
“Did Our Savior Pre-exist?” By John V. Cordaro:

The Form of Elohim

This brings us to the most difficult passage of Scripture to understand. The key to
understanding it lies in your stand concerning the pre-existence doctrine as a whole. If
you reject what has been written up to this point and continue to hold unto a belief in the pre-existence, you will most likely fail to comprehend this last passage as well. Those that are not locked into a preconceived idea will grasp its meaning much easier.The passage in question, Ph.2:5-9, reads as follows; “Let this mind be in you, which was also in Messiah Yahshua: Who, being in the form of Elohim, thought it not robbery to be equal with Yahweh: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore Yahweh also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:” (KJV)

To begin with, what does verse 5 mean? Does it mean that we should have the same
mind as Messiah Yahshua before or after his earthly birth? Paul is telling the Philippians to have the same mind as Messiah Yahshua . If Yahshua pre-existed, he certainly did not carry the name Messiah Yahshua. That name can only be applied to the historical Yahshua, not the being who supposedly pre-existed as “the Word.” Yahshua did not officially become “the Anointed” or “the Messiah” until he was baptized with the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:38).

As a child, Yahshua “waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of
Yahweh was upon him” (Lu.2:40). Even at that time Yahshua knew who he was, knew
who his Father was (Lu.2:49), and knew what he had to do. By the time of his baptism
he was so filled with wisdom, knowledge, Spirit, and power that Paul says he was “in
the form (or likeness) of Elohim.” It does not say he “was Elohim.” Yet, Yahshua did
not allow that power and wisdom to corrupt him. Nor did he, for one moment, consid
er
himself Yahweh's equal. He knew his Father was greater than himself (Jn.10:29; 13:16; 14:28). The RSV and many other versions correctly translate Ph.2:6 as follows; “Who, though he was in the form of [Elohim], did not count equality with [Yahweh] a thing to be grasped.”

Yahshua did not strip himself of any pre-existent power or glory. He simply humbled
himself and made himself of no reputation even though he was far more knowledgeable
and powerful than any of his contemporaries. Instead of glorifying himself and expecting others to serve him, he chose to become a servant. He became like most men, common and unassuming as compared to the politically powerful and famous.

In addition to not exalting himself in the eyes of man, he further humbled himself by
becoming totally obedient to the laws and will of His Father Yahweh. As a reward for
his obedience, Yahweh has highly exalted him. A future exaltation will be the reward of all true believers if they, too, will humble themselves as Yahshua did.

This study has only touched upon certain aspects of the pre-existence doctrine. For
additional information, please see the study entitled “Yahshua the Messiah is not
Almighty Yahweh.” That study will explain many other verses used to support the
pre-existence. Among the verses discussed are; Ge.1:26; 19:24; Ps.110:5; Ze.12:10;
Mi.5:2; Jn.1:1,10; 8:58; 12:37-41; Acts 20:28; 1 Cor.8:6; 10:4; Eph.3:9; Col.1:16; 1
Tim.3:16; and Heb.1:2. The study also explains such terms as elohim and echad.

Also See:

The Problem of Pre-Existence in Philippians 2: 6-11
JSTOR
http://www.jstor.org/stable/3263269

Philippians 2:6-8
Biblical Unitarian
http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/verses/philippians-2-6-8

Jesus Is Not Equal With God
The True Meaning Of Philippians 2:5-6
http://bibleteachings.atspace.com/Jesusisnotequalwithgod.html

Philippians 2:5-9
By Juan Baixeras
http://www.geocities.com/athens/olympus/5257/philippians2.htm

THE FORM OF GOD
(Philippians 2:5 -)
William M. Wachtel
http://focusonthekingdom.org/articles/philippians.htm

COLOSSIANS 1:15-20
PREEXISTENCE OR PREEMINENCE?
By William M. Wachtel
http://focusonthekingdom.org/articles/colossians.htm

“Being in the Form of God”
(Phil. 2)
http://www.realchrist.info/a9.html

The Attitude Of The Man Christ Jesus:
Philippians 2:6 Explained
http://www.bibleanswerstand.org/philippians.htm

Philippians 2:5-11
Humility of Mind
http://godandson.reslight.net/?p=624

Philippians 2:5-8 – The Humanity of Jesus Christ
Jim Davis
http://focusongod.com/sermon157.htm

…

April 14, 2012 at 11:08 pm#292384

Participant

I like the quote When Jesus Hands the batten to the pre-existing dead an gone Men of Nineveh an the queen of sheba, souls dead an gone….An How the last few words of the old torah mention that they shall return an grow up on the stall an defeat the opposing theory that was ruling them…so undermined for valued for its possible context as they inquire of John the Baptist wither he is the promised Elijah..having been re born an grown up in the stall…Saul to Paul…Peter Jonas…an more..

Its a if the first temple that is done away with to make way for the second theory was ruled out back then..an we all have been forced to follow a new kingdom set up, rebukking the we shall be changes an twinkle of an eye at the revlation of our own souls….kurtzee

April 14, 2012 at 11:31 pm#292386

Participant

Quote (charity @ April 15 2012,10:08)

April 14, 2012 at 11:44 pm#292387

Participant

The Last words written IN THE OLD TORAH, an very long silence.. 450 years untill more words were written..the living word.. inquiring of John the Baptist was he the Elijah…the chariots AN THE HORSE WERE CUT OFF AS PROPHESIED…

Mal 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do [this], saith the LORD of hosts.

Mal 4:4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, [with] the statutes and judgments.

Mal 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:

Mal 4:6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

tURNING THE harts of the New Children towards the Generation of the prior Fathers..as to the Children will need to be quickened as the New Man standing the stead of…under the covenant of..YOUR SOUL SHALL LIVE FOREVER! an God shall do away with first to make way for the second temple to finish the work begun…

April 15, 2012 at 12:05 am#292389

Participant

Obtaining a better resurrection, it was not a one moment thing all at once…

Hbr 11:35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:

Please give me the time of Day…kurtzeeee

April 15, 2012 at 12:13 am#292390

Blocked

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 14 2012,16:42)

Hi MB,
The Word was not a lesser god.
The Word was God

The Word was a lesser god who was WITH THE God in the beginning. God Almighty cannot be WITH Himself, Nick.

The Word is again a lesser god who resides at that right hand of the Greatest God.

April 15, 2012 at 12:36 am#292394

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 15 2012,11:13)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 14 2012,16:42)

Hi MB,
The Word was not a lesser god.
The Word was God

The Word was a lesser god who was WITH THE God in the beginning. God Almighty cannot be WITH Himself, Nick.

The Word is again a lesser god who resides at that right hand of the Greatest God.

Mike,

Nowhere in Scripture does it ever teach of say “The Word was a lesser god who was WITH THE God in the beginning.”

April 15, 2012 at 1:10 am#292403

Participant

If you were also from the beginning… I wish God wold tell us how many Hairs he has counted for each soul created…or recreated..lol

April 15, 2012 at 1:40 am#292413

ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?

Participant

Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 15 2012,11:36)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 15 2012,11:13)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 14 2012,16:42)

Hi MB,
The Word was not a lesser god.
The Word was God

The Word was a lesser god who was WITH THE God in the beginning. God Almighty cannot be WITH Himself, Nick.

The Word is again a lesser god who resides at that right hand of the Greatest God.

Mike,

Nowhere in Scripture does it ever teach of say “The Word was a lesser god who was WITH THE God in the beginning.”

Mike,

Father Yahweh clearly says:

“I am Yahweh, and there is no other; apart from [or beside] Me there is no Mighty One [“Elohim – God”].

Deuteronomy 4:39 ask us to:

Acknowledge and take to heart at this time, that Yahweh is a Mighty One [“Elohim – God”] in heaven above and on the earth below. There is no other.

Yahweh says in Deuteronomy 32:39:

“See now that I, I am He, And there is no mighty one [elohim – god] besides Me“

Deuteronomy 6:4 says:

“Hear, O Ysryl! Yahweh is our Mighty One [“Elohim – God”], Yahweh is ONE [ECHAD]!” No, not TWO or THREE, but ONE!

2 Samuyl 7:21 says:

“You are great, O Yahweh our Mighty One [“Elohim – God”]; for there is none like You, and there is no Mighty One [“Elohim – God”] besides You”

2 Samuyl 22:32 says:

“For who is Mighty [“Elohim – God”], besides Yahweh? And who is a rock, besides our Mighty One [“Elohim – God”]?”

1 Kings 8:60 says:

“Yahweh is Mighty [“Elohim – God”]; there is no one else.”

2 Kings 19:15 says:

“You are the Mighty One [“Elohim – God”], You ALONE, of all the kingdoms of the earth.”

Need I go on and show the some 107 Scripture verses and passages that proclaim this truth?

…

April 15, 2012 at 1:45 am#292415

ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?

Participant

Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 15 2012,12:40)

Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 15 2012,11:36)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 15 2012,11:13)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 14 2012,16:42)

Hi MB,
The Word was not a lesser god.
The Word was God

The Word was a lesser god who was WITH THE God in the beginning. God Almighty cannot be WITH Himself, Nick.

The Word is again a lesser god who resides at that right hand of the Greatest God.

Mike,

Nowhere in Scripture does it ever teach of say “The Word was a lesser god who was WITH THE God in the beginning.”

Mike,

Father Yahweh clearly says:

“I am Yahweh, and there is no other; apart from [or beside] Me there is no Mighty One [“Elohim – God”].

Deuteronomy 4:39 ask us to:

Acknowledge and take to heart at this time, that Yahweh is a Mighty One [“Elohim – God”] in heaven above and on the earth below. There is no other.

Yahweh says in Deuteronomy 32:39:

“See now that I, I am He, And there is no mighty one [elohim – god] besides Me“

Deuteronomy 6:4 says:

“Hear, O Ysryl! Yahweh is our Mighty One [“Elohim – God”], Yahweh is ONE [ECHAD]!” No, not TWO or THREE, but ONE!

2 Samuyl 7:21 says:

“You are great, O Yahweh our Mighty One [“Elohim – God”]; for there is none like You, and there is no Mighty One [“Elohim – God”] besides You”

2 Samuyl 22:32 says:

“For who is Mighty [“Elohim – God”], besides Yahweh? And who is a rock, besides our Mighty One [“Elohim – God”]?”

1 Kings 8:60 says:

“Yahweh is Mighty [“Elohim – God”]; there is no one else.”

2 Kings 19:15 says:

“You are the Mighty One [“Elohim – God”], You ALONE, of all the kingdoms of the earth.”

Need I go on and show the some 107 Scripture verses and passages that proclaim this truth?

…

URL Correction:

ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?

April 15, 2012 at 2:17 am#292418

Blocked

Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 14 2012,19:40)

Mike,

Father Yahweh clearly says:

“I am Yahweh, and there is no other; apart from [or beside] Me there is no Mighty One [“Elohim – God”].

And how do you explain the other elohim and theos mentioned in scripture, Frank?

Do we pretend they don't exist? Do we call them “false gods” and assume that Jehovah's title “The God of gods” means He's the God of “false gods” and “idols”?

Or do we understand those verses the same way we understand Is 43:11 and 45:21, where we're told that Jehovah is the only savior even though we know He SENT other saviors?

Frank, there is no denying that scripture says there are MANY gods, both in heaven and on earth. There is also no denying that Jesus is one of these gods according to scripture.

April 15, 2012 at 4:56 am#292445