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Quote That is my understanding, David. Jesus was born the Christ of God, just like the angel clearly said. You keep offering examples of someone looking back in time from the future, talking about this king was born in such and such a year – even though he wasn't king at that time. And I've already mentioned in another post, that this angel wasn't looking back in time from the future, saying the one who EVENTUALLY TURNED INTO THE CHRIST was born in such and such a year. Instead, this angel said he was born the Christ ON THE VERY DAY HE WAS BORN.
Do you have an example for that?
No, so here is some more examples from google similar to the other ones:
King Henry was born in 1068 in Shelby, Yorkshire, England.
King Henry was born on June 28th in 1491 in Greenwich Palace to the parents of Elizabeth of York and Henry Tudor
1 Esdras 4:15-25. Women gave birth to the king and to every people that
but the ground on which it fell gave birth to a king named Erichthonius
His Majesty the King was born on 5 January 1938 in Rome
*****
If someone in life later becomes a king (or any title of high station) it seems respectful to refer to them with that station throughout their life, even if they didn't attain that position until later in their life.
Luke 2
11 Today in the town of David a SAVIOR has been born to you; he is CHRIST the Lord.Luke 2
25 Now there was a man in Jerusalem called Simeon, who was righteous and devout. He was waiting for the consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was upon him. 26 It had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not die before he had seen the Lord’s Christ. 27 Moved by the Spirit, he went into the temple courts. When the parents brought in the child Jesus to do for him what the custom of the Law required, 28 Simeon took him in his arms and praised God, saying:Simeon had seen the Lord's anointed one. He just happened to see him before he was anointed.
Mike, I am curious what you think of my Savior question above. Just as you say that Jesus was born Christ, you could use the same verse to say that he was born Savior. Yet, a savior is someone who saves others.
When it says the savior was born, it means the one who WOULD save. Doesn't it?Quote (david @ Mar. 20 2012,15:33) No, so here is some more examples from google similar to the other ones: King Henry was born in 1068 in Shelby, Yorkshire, England.
King Henry was born on June 28th in 1491 in Greenwich Palace to the parents of Elizabeth of York and Henry Tudor
1 Esdras 4:15-25. Women gave birth to the king and to every people that
but the ground on which it fell gave birth to a king named Erichthonius
His Majesty the King was born on 5 January 1938 in Rome
*****
If someone in life later becomes a king (or any title of high station) it seems respectful to refer to them with that station throughout their life, even if they didn't attain that position until later in their life.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 15 2012,13:23) Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 14 2012,19:41) Hi Mike, Scenarios do portray ideas, but don't prove them.
So then you have no problem whatsoever with us using them, right?
Hi Mike,Not at all, to illustrate their idea.
But what I see instead is that people
think that using them proves their case,
which it clearly doesn't; that's the difference.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgEd, there is a full proof way to know if my examples prove my case with regard to our discussion. Do the experiment I suggested in the other thread. Then you will understand how other people speak normally.
“King Henry was born in 1068 in Shelby, Yorkshire, England…”
He was not born “king” henry. Yet, this is the way people speak. It just is. I talk to people every day in the real world. I asked about your family situation Ed, because I wonder if you communicate with a lot of people in real life. I did not want you giving personal information, but just wanted to know that you have friends or people you know in real life who you listen to speaking.
david
Hi David,
In this case I both agree with your premise and your examples.
But in another thread, you've made up scenarios that illustrate
your belief, but do in NO WAY PROVE your belief to be correct.I hope you understand the point that I'm making …”Finger”.
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Mar. 19 2012,20:29) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 20 2012,13:13) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Mar. 19 2012,19:56) No matter how the translators translate it “THE God” translation would still be in reference to FATHER Yahweh ……..
That is correct, Frank. And how many “THE gods” does John mention in 1:1? “THE god” is who the logos was WITH. But John doesn't call the logos “THE god”, does he?Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Mar. 19 2012,19:56) That's strange! Does not 'the definite article “THE” [proceed] “god”' [ho theos] when speaking of Satan in 2 Corinthians 4:4?
Satan is never called just “THE god”. He is called “THE god of Ekron”, and “THE god of this world”. But he is never called just “THE god”.I was speaking of them calling Jehovah “THE God” – WITHOUT any modifying phrase attatched, such as “of Ekron”, or “of this world”.
Mike,So, are you trying to convince me that you or anyone else that worships the “God” that you worship would never say “God of the heavens.”?
Frank,I'm not saying that Jehovah ISN'T ever called “THE god” with a modifying phrase such as “of heaven and earth”.
I'm saying that Jehovah is the only One ever called “THE god” WITHOUT a modifying phrase. (At least to my knowledge.)
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Mar. 19 2012,20:39) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Mar. 20 2012,13:36) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 20 2012,13:18) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Mar. 19 2012,20:15) Again, my son was not taught to speak in such a manner, but I could tell my son about the esteem “HE HIMSELF HAD before he was born?
No Frank.You could tell your son about the esteem YOU HAD for him before he was born. You could not tell your son about any esteem HE HIMSELF had before he was born.
Jesus, on the other hand, COULD speak of the esteem HE HIMSELF had before the world began.
Frank, are you even aware how silly you sound? Who does that? Who allows themselves to pretend that what they know is utter nonsense is really “sensible”?
Oh yeah. Trinitarians and non-preexisters, that's who.
Mike,I most certainly could not tell my son about any esteem HE HIMSELF had before he was born! Who died and made you the dictating “God” of how I am to speak to my son?
Mike,I meant to say … I most certainly could tell my son about any esteem HE HIMSELF had before he was born! Who died and made you the dictating “God” of how I am to speak to my son?
– the “not”
Frank,YOUR SON could never speak of any glory HE HIMSELF HAD before he existed. He must first have existed to be a “HE” in the first place. And secondly, he must first have existed in order to personally HAVE anything.
YOU could have had high hopes for your son before he was born. But your son could not have had his own glory before he even existed.
Quote (david @ Mar. 19 2012,22:33) Quote (mikeboll @ 64) And I've already mentioned in another post, that this angel wasn't looking back in time from the future, saying the one who EVENTUALLY TURNED INTO THE CHRIST was born in such and such a year. Instead, this angel said he was born the Christ ON THE VERY DAY HE WAS BORN. Do you have an example for that?
No, so here is some more examples from google similar to the other ones…………….
Why would you list more examples when the first ones didn't fit the category?David, can you comprehend the difference between someone from the future looking back into the past and speaking about when a king was born – and a person calling someone “the king” in real time?
The angel was not looking back into the past from the future talking about when the Christ was born. He spoke in real time, as it happened. And his words were that the Christ was born TODAY. He said this ON THE DAY the Christ was born of Mary.
Could you at least acknowledge that you understand this BIG difference?
Quote (david @ Mar. 19 2012,22:34) Mike, was Jesus born a Savior?
Absolutely, David. Did not the angel who told us Jesus was born the Christ also tell us he was born a Savior and King of the Jews?Is Jesus Christ YOUR personal Savior right now – today? I assume you'll say “YES”, in which case, I want to know:
1. Have you yet gone off into everlasting life?
2. Have you come face to face with your Savior while he judged you favorably in the sight of God and His angels, and set you apart with the other sheep?
3. Have you received your glorious, new, imperishable body yet?Or, will you die in your sin like the rest of us for the time being?
We are not truly and literally saved (past tense) until we have been judged favorably by the one God put in charge of judgement day.
Yet, Jesus is STILL our Savior, right? Why? Because he died for our sins? Did he BECOME Savior at the moment he died? If so, why then? Why not on the walk up to the Place of Skulls? Why not on the day before? Why not when he saved others by teaching them what the Pharisees wouldn't? OR……………why not the moment he left his cushy position alongside God to be made into a human being? OR………………….why not the moment God told him what was soon going to take place and he agreed to die for us?
David, read this scripture:
Acts 2:36
“Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”This scripture makes it sound as if Jesus didn't become the Christ until after he was crucified. But we know that's not the case because of many other scriptures, right? Or do we? We could use some of your Google examples to explain that the scriptures say “Christ” did this miracle on earth, or healed that person on earth, only because they were written by men looking back into the past – from a time AFTER Jesus had finally become the Christ after his crucifixion, right?
In other words, I could use your same “looking back from a future standpoint” argument against your understanding that Jesus became the Christ at the Jordan, couldn't I?
Keep that in mind the next time you consider Acts 10:38 to be the final word on when Jesus became the Christ. Because that lone verse does make it seem as if Jesus BECAME the Christ at his baptism. But just like with Acts 2:36, there are other scriptures that tell a different story.
I believe Jesus was God's anointed, chosen, set apart one from the second God decided to set him apart in the first place. I believe that he was not only born the Christ of God, but was the Christ of God long before Mary ever gave birth to him. I believe that Saul's experience makes it clear that a person can be the anointed one of God BEFORE God “anoints” him with Holy Spirit, oil, or whatever.
I understand that you see it differently. I'm okay with that. But you will most likely not change my mind, since the angel in Luke 2 CLEARLY says Jesus was BORN the Christ.
I agree to disagree with you on this subject, David.
But do remember that there are different terms of “anointing”, as the JW article I posted yesterday makes clear. Jesus was God's chosen Savior long before God “anointed” him with Holy Spirit without limit at that Jordan.
Quote (david @ Mar. 19 2012,22:38) Simeon had seen the Lord's anointed one. He just happened to see him before he was anointed. Again, Simeon wasn't looking back from some future time AFTER Jesus became the Christ at the Jordan, and saying he saw God's Christ when Jesus was only 8 days old. Simeon spoke in real time, and thanked (past tense) God for letting him see (past tense) His Christ when that Christ was only 8 days old.
He told God that he could now die in peace because he HAD (past tense) seen His Christ and salvation.
Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 19 2012,21:38) Mike tries to make Scripture argue with Scripture; Nick has pointed this out.
I couldn't possibly do that even IF I ever tried to, Ed. If the scriptures I post get YOU thinking that scriptures are arguing with scriptures, then it is YOU who is understanding those scriptures wrong.It's like when you and Frank quote scriptures speaking about ONE god. If YOU guys can't understand the scripture right, then YOU guys will come to the conclusion that scripture argues with scripture when Paul mentions the MANY gods in heaven and on earth. Or when Jehovah Himself calls someone like Satan a god. Or when Jehovah is called the God OF gods, or God MOST HIGH, etc.
As for me, I understand what is meant by “apart from me there is no god”, and so scriptures don't argue with scriptures for me – only for you.
Hi MB,
You say
'Keep that in mind the next time you consider Acts 10:38 to be the final word on when Jesus became the Christ. Because that lone verse does make it seem as if Jesus BECAME the Christ at his baptism. But just like with Acts 2:36, there are other scriptures that tell a different story.”You find scripture argues with itself?
Or is the smokescreen of confusion helpful to you?Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 21 2012,13:04) Quote (david @ Mar. 19 2012,22:34) Mike, was Jesus born a Savior?
Absolutely, David. Did not the angel who told us Jesus was born the Christ also tell us he was born a Savior and King of the Jews?Is Jesus Christ YOUR personal Savior right now – today? I assume you'll say “YES”, in which case, I want to know:
1. Have you yet gone off into everlasting life?
2. Have you come face to face with your Savior while he judged you favorably in the sight of God and His angels, and set you apart with the other sheep?
3. Have you received your glorious, new, imperishable body yet?
Hi Mike, you may be getting it!Jesus became “Christ” at the Jordan river (Acts 10:38),
though he was God's only begotten Son at conception! (Luke 1:35)
“and calleth those things which be not (yet) as though they were.” (Romans 4:17)Your brother
in Christ, Jesus.
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 21 2012,13:04) This scripture makes it sound as if Jesus didn't become the Christ until after he was crucified.
Hi Mike,It also makes it sound like he didn't become the “Son of God” until then too. (see Rom.1:4)
Your brother
in Christ, Jesus.
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
holycitybiblecode.orgHi ED,
Men become spiritual Sons of God not by flesh but by anointing.
This explains the sons in Ps 82Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 21 2012,13:11) Quote (david @ Mar. 19 2012,22:38) Simeon had seen the Lord's anointed one. He just happened to see him before he was anointed. Again, Simeon wasn't looking back from some future time AFTER Jesus became the Christ at the Jordan, and saying he saw God's Christ when Jesus was only 8 days old. Simeon spoke in real time, and thanked (past tense) God for letting him see (past tense) His Christ when that Christ was only 8 days old.
He told God that he could now die in peace because he HAD (past tense) seen His Christ and salvation.
Hi Mike, let me see if I can get this straight:Simeon said Jesus was his savior though he had not been saved yet,
BUT Jesus was “Christ” then because that is when Simeon said he
was both his savior and the Christ; did I get it right now, Mike?God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgHi ED,
Romans 8:15
For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “ Abba! Father!”By the Spirit we became sons.
We follow JesusHi Nick,
Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness
with our spirit, that we are the children of God:Your brother
in Christ, Jesus.
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
holycitybiblecode.org
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