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Quote (david @ Mar. 15 2012,23:31) Hi Terrica, yes, it was fortold that Christ would appear and be cut off. But when did that prophecy point to? Did it point to his birth? Or did it point to when he was “anointed” hence officially becoming the anointed one (Christ)? Dan 9:24-27 pinpoints when “messiah” would appear (and also be cut off, in death)
Luke 3:15: The Jews were in “expectation” of the Christ, right around the time Jesus was baptized. (Luke 3:21,22)
How did the Jews know that the Christ was to appear around that time? They read Dan 9.
Why were they in expectation around the time of Jesus baptism and not at his birth? Because Dan 9 pointed to that time when the Christ would appear, not to the time of Jesus' birth.
Jesus became the “anointed one” (Christ) when he was anointed with holy spirit at his baptism. (See Luke 3:21,22)
This is why, for me, it seems that he became anointed at that time and not his birth. This seems how the Jews understood it and they were right to be in “expectation” of the Christ at that time, because later in that chapter, we see Jesus is being anointed with holy spirit.
“After being baptized Jesus immediately came up from the water; and, look! the heavens were opened up, and he saw descending like a dove God’s spirit coming upon him.” (Mat 3:16)
“The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor….” (luke 4:19)
God anointed his son with his holy spirit. Matthew, mark, Luke say that the holy spirit or God's spirit came down upon Jesus. Jesus was baptized with holy spirit, thus becoming the Christ (anointed one.)
DavidI agree with all this ,and it is true that wen Christ went to John the bpt this was the time wen he start his mission as the true messiah
as it was foretold ,but his birth was also foretold ,and his purpose for being born or given a body was also foretold,and that he was THE WORD OF GOD as John says in Jhn1;14 ,so he his born what
??beside being a baby,
is not the son of a king born prince a king in waiting
Hi T,
John the apostle speaks of Jesus Christ as the WORD whom he “touched” after the ministry of Christ Jesus had begun and had been completed.[1jn 1]There is no evidence John knew Jesus of Nazareth as flesh before he was anointed [lk 5.10]
John only knew the WORD
Quote (david @ Mar. 14 2012,23:33) I have to wonder what you think of Dan 9.
I have to wonder why magi and shepherds came to do homage to Jesus when he was born. I wonder why Herod had the scribes and Pharisees search the scriptures to find out where the CHRIST was TO BE born. (Matthew 2:4) I wonder why the scribes didn't tell Herod, “Don't worry, because according to Daniel, the Christ doesn't come for 30 more years.“I wonder why so many babies had to be killed when Daniel pinpointed the time the Christ was to come.
But mostly, I wonder why you guys won't believe the angel that said the Christ had been born. Or why you won't believe that God kept His promise to Simeon when Jesus was only 8 days old.
David, I haven't decyphered Daniel's timeline. I read the JW book on Daniel a couple of years back, but couldn't make a rational decision myself, because I was (and still am) on milk.
I do find it odd that the experts in the Law and the Prophets didn't think it odd that the Christ was said to have already been born – 30 years ahead of schedule.
Quote (david @ Mar. 14 2012,23:47) Sure, Jesus lived before he was anointed, but it wasn't his time yet. He wasn't really recognized as the anointed one until he became anointed.
Hi David,My question was why John would say this BEFORE Jesus was anointed with (more) Holy Spirit:
14 But John tried to deter him, saying, “I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?”
Also, being “recognized” as the anointed one, and BEING the anointed one don't have to land on the same day. He apparently, according to scripture, WAS the anointed of God before anyone ever “recognized” him as such.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 14 2012,21:09) Hi MB,
Was Jesus with God and God in the beginning?
Jesus was with THE god, and was a god. There are two gods mentioned in John 1:1, Nick. Only one of them is called THE god.Quote (david @ Mar. 14 2012,23:48) John said: “I viewed the spirit coming down as a dove out of heaven, and it remained upon him. Even I did not know him, but the very One who sent me to baptize in water said to me, ‘Whoever it is upon whom you see the spirit coming down and remaining, this is the one that baptizes in holy spirit.’ And I have seen it, and I have borne witness that this one is the Son of God.” (John 1:32-34)
Yeah David,I looked into that scripture yesterday. It seems a direct contradiction to Matthew 3:14. But I looked at the many definitions for the Greek word “eido”, and it could be referring to John not BEING COMPLETELY SURE about the identity of Jesus until after he saw the Holy Spirit come down on him. We know that even after John witnessed this at Jesus' baptism, he still sent his disciples to REALLY MAKE SURE that Jesus was the one they'd been waiting for, right?
It's either that, or it seems to me that we have a contradiction in scripture.
Quote (david @ Mar. 14 2012,23:56) Anyway, Mike, wondering what you think about this prophecy that tells us when “MESSIAH THE LEADER” WAS TO APPEAR?
I can't answer you, David. I will tell you what I know for sure:1. Everyone has their own way of figuring out the dates and prophesies of the scriptures – and not everyone agrees with everyone else – so someone must be wrong.
2. I know the JWs were in error in 1984, so who's to say they aren't adding up something wrong in this case also?
3. There are many things hidden in the scriptures. The discrepancy in time could be a mistake on the JW's part. It could be related to the “days meaning years” – perhaps Sabbaths are not included? It could be a number of different things that no one has even thought of yet. We take Daniel's use of the word “time, times, and half a time” and conveniently make it fit to Jesus' three and a half year ministry on earth. But whose to say that “times” doesn't mean a billion times?
This is the stuff that I just don't have the knowledge to understand. I know many people think they do, but look at any of the Revelation threads on this site. I doubt there are two people who have ever posted here that think Rev refers to the same people, places, times and things.
We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one, David. You can rely on your own understanding of Daniel. I will rely on the clearly spoken words of scripture that say Jesus was born the Christ.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 16 2012,13:05) Hi T,
John the apostle speaks of Jesus Christ as the WORD whom he “touched” after the ministry of Christ Jesus had begun and had been completed.[1jn 1]There is no evidence John knew Jesus of Nazareth as flesh before he was anointed [lk 5.10]
John only knew the WORD
Nyou really out of this world ,you should read scriptures again
Many knew Jesus and from were he was Nazareth
MT 21:11 And the crowds were saying, “This is the prophet Jesus, from Nazareth in Galilee.”
MT 26:71 When he had gone out to the gateway, another servant-girl saw him and *said to those who were there, “This man was with Jesus of Nazareth.”
MK 1:9 In those days Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan.
MK 1:24 saying, “ What business do we have with each other, Jesus of Nazareth? Have You come to destroy us? I know who You are— the Holy One of God!”LK 18:37 They told him that Jesus of Nazareth was passing by.
JN 1:45 Philip *found Nathanael and *said to him, “We have found Him of whom Moses in the Law and also the Prophets wrote—Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.”
JN 1:46 Nathanael said to him, “ Can any good thing come out of Nazareth?” Philip *said to him, “Come and see.”
AC 10:38 “You know of Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.Come and see.
Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 16 2012,05:31) Quote (david @ Mar. 15 2012,23:31) Hi Terrica, yes, it was fortold that Christ would appear and be cut off. But when did that prophecy point to? Did it point to his birth? Or did it point to when he was “anointed” hence officially becoming the anointed one (Christ)? Dan 9:24-27 pinpoints when “messiah” would appear (and also be cut off, in death)
Luke 3:15: The Jews were in “expectation” of the Christ, right around the time Jesus was baptized. (Luke 3:21,22)
How did the Jews know that the Christ was to appear around that time? They read Dan 9.
Why were they in expectation around the time of Jesus baptism and not at his birth? Because Dan 9 pointed to that time when the Christ would appear, not to the time of Jesus' birth.
Jesus became the “anointed one” (Christ) when he was anointed with holy spirit at his baptism. (See Luke 3:21,22)
This is why, for me, it seems that he became anointed at that time and not his birth. This seems how the Jews understood it and they were right to be in “expectation” of the Christ at that time, because later in that chapter, we see Jesus is being anointed with holy spirit.
“After being baptized Jesus immediately came up from the water; and, look! the heavens were opened up, and he saw descending like a dove God’s spirit coming upon him.” (Mat 3:16)
“The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor….” (luke 4:19)
God anointed his son with his holy spirit. Matthew, mark, Luke say that the holy spirit or God's spirit came down upon Jesus. Jesus was baptized with holy spirit, thus becoming the Christ (anointed one.)
DavidI agree with all this ,and it is true that wen Christ went to John the bpt this was the time wen he start his mission as the true messiah
as it was foretold ,but his birth was also foretold ,and his purpose for being born or given a body was also foretold,and that he was THE WORD OF GOD as John says in Jhn1;14 ,so he his born what
??beside being a baby,
is not the son of a king born prince a king in waiting
Yes, but a king in waiting is not a king, as Mike pointed out. It is only a prince.“The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor….” (luke 4:19)
When was he anointed to preach the good news? When did he begin his preaching? At his birth? Or, at his baptism?
Mike, are these the scriptures that you use to support what you believe?
Luke 2
11 Today in the town of David a Savior has been born to you; he is Christ the Lord.
The angel didn't say, “He WILL BE Christ the Lord”.Luke 2
25 Now there was a man in Jerusalem called Simeon, who was righteous and devout. He was waiting for the consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was upon him. 26 It had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not die before he had seen the Lord’s Christ. 27 Moved by the Spirit, he went into the temple courts. When the parents brought in the child Jesus to do for him what the custom of the Law required, 28 Simeon took him in his arms and praised God, saying:Just curious if there are more that speak of Jesus as Christ before his being anointed?
Yes.
Matthew 2:4
4 When he had called together all the people’s chief priests and teachers of the law, he asked them where the Christ was to be born.That tells me Jesus was BORN already the Christ.
The rest of Matthew 2 depicts a child who was worthy of obeisance and gifts – not just a regular old “nobody”.
And for Nick, verses 14-15 specify that Jesus was the Son of God way before he was baptized and DECLARED to be the Son of God.
Quote I have to wonder why magi and shepherds came to do homage to Jesus when he was born. I wonder why Herod had the scribes and Pharisees search the scriptures to find out where the CHRIST was TO BE born. (Matthew 2:4) I wonder why the scribes didn't tell Herod, “Don't worry, because according to Daniel, the Christ doesn't come for 30 more years.” I wonder why so many babies had to be killed when Daniel pinpointed the time the Christ was to come.
Wow, at first, this seemed like a great point and was seconds away from abandoning what I believed. 🙂
But with further thought:
The SHEPHARDS came because they were told to by angels. It was the Christ's birth after all. (Yes, I don't think he was officially Christ yet, but that's just the way people speak.)
The MAGI (astrologers) came a bit later. Otherwise, it would have been a bit weird for Herod to command all the children under 2 YEARS to be killed. (New born infants look much different from 2 year olds.) Anyway, the astrologers who saw the star and came from the east, weren't sent by God. If we remember, they were lead first to Herod, who wanted to kill Jesus. Hardly seems like something God would do. Then, God intervened. Anyway, you wonder;
“I wonder why Herod had the scribes and Pharisees search the scriptures to find out where the CHRIST was TO BE born.”
Keep in mind they searched WHERE the Christ was to be born, not WHEN. And yes, it says “christ.” This in itself does “tend” to lean towards your way of thinking.But this again has to do with the Christ (the person, who had to be born) as opposed to the station or position (of the anointed one, Christ)
Obviously, anyone born to play a role in life, first has to be born, in order to do so.
So, upon asking when that person would be born, it seems common practice to be able to say the position when what is really meant is the person. (They are the same, after all.)Example:
Puyi, the last empeor of China. He was born in 1906. But he didn't rule as emperor until 1908. (not a typo).
Do you think that when he was born, people called him an emperor? (It was the role everyone knew he would play.) Did they say: “Look at the emperor”? Probably they did. Even though he wasn't the officially emperor for another two years, when he somehow began ruling, apparently at the age of 2sorry, didn't finish my thought. God sidetracked by how a 2 year old could be emperor.
Quote I wonder why the scribes didn't tell Herod, “Don't worry, because according to Daniel, the Christ doesn't come for 30 more years.” First, we are talking about the scribes and the pharisees. I don't give them too much credit. In my mind it would be like asking a Catholic priest the same question. Would he think to look to Daniel?
I don't think Herod was too concerned with “the christ” as he was with the idea that a new king was born, or someone who might challenge his authority. So, off with his head. Off with all their heads.dan 9 speaks of when “messiah” would appear, and when he would be cut off.
I tried to sidestep all the math of this prophecy. I don't need to discuss the starting point. All we have to know is that it speaks of him appearing and being cut off. We know he was cut off (in death) just a few years after his being baptized. For me, this seems to match up nicely with the 1/2 of the week, or half of seven (in years) 3 1/2 years. So, for me, that seems to put his “appearing” as Messiah anyway, right at the time of his baptism. And not at the time of his birth.
I guess you could interpret the 1/2 of the week to somehow mean 33 years. But I'm not sure how.
Quote (david @ Mar. 16 2012,20:20) Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 16 2012,05:31) Quote (david @ Mar. 15 2012,23:31) Hi Terrica, yes, it was fortold that Christ would appear and be cut off. But when did that prophecy point to? Did it point to his birth? Or did it point to when he was “anointed” hence officially becoming the anointed one (Christ)? Dan 9:24-27 pinpoints when “messiah” would appear (and also be cut off, in death)
Luke 3:15: The Jews were in “expectation” of the Christ, right around the time Jesus was baptized. (Luke 3:21,22)
How did the Jews know that the Christ was to appear around that time? They read Dan 9.
Why were they in expectation around the time of Jesus baptism and not at his birth? Because Dan 9 pointed to that time when the Christ would appear, not to the time of Jesus' birth.
Jesus became the “anointed one” (Christ) when he was anointed with holy spirit at his baptism. (See Luke 3:21,22)
This is why, for me, it seems that he became anointed at that time and not his birth. This seems how the Jews understood it and they were right to be in “expectation” of the Christ at that time, because later in that chapter, we see Jesus is being anointed with holy spirit.
“After being baptized Jesus immediately came up from the water; and, look! the heavens were opened up, and he saw descending like a dove God’s spirit coming upon him.” (Mat 3:16)
“The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor….” (luke 4:19)
God anointed his son with his holy spirit. Matthew, mark, Luke say that the holy spirit or God's spirit came down upon Jesus. Jesus was baptized with holy spirit, thus becoming the Christ (anointed one.)
DavidI agree with all this ,and it is true that wen Christ went to John the bpt this was the time wen he start his mission as the true messiah
as it was foretold ,but his birth was also foretold ,and his purpose for being born or given a body was also foretold,and that he was THE WORD OF GOD as John says in Jhn1;14 ,so he his born what
??beside being a baby,
is not the son of a king born prince a king in waiting
Yes, but a king in waiting is not a king, as Mike pointed out. It is only a prince.“The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor….” (luke 4:19)
When was he anointed to preach the good news? When did he begin his preaching? At his birth? Or, at his baptism?
DavidJesus was not a prince in waiting ,he was send ;wen can you call that Jesus was send ;at birth ,what in Christ case is a rebirth as a human ,was he send as a spirit being and then so changed ??
or did he become the son of God wen he was anointed ???or was he the son of God all a long,??JN 3:17 “For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
JN 10:36 do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘ I am the Son of God’?
JN 12:46 “ I have come as Light into the world, so that everyone who believes in Me will not remain in darkness.
JN 18:37 Therefore Pilate said to Him, “So You are a king?” Jesus answered, “ You say correctly that I am a king. For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice.”
the anointing is only a phase of the work to fulfilled by Christ ;being the seed of David and so become the legit king of David throne
1JN 4:9 By this the love of God was manifested in us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world so that we might live through Him.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 16 2012,13:42) Yes. Matthew 2:4
4 When he had called together all the people’s chief priests and teachers of the law, he asked them where the Christ was to be born.That tells me Jesus was BORN already the Christ.
The rest of Matthew 2 depicts a child who was worthy of obeisance and gifts – not just a regular old “nobody”.
And for Nick, verses 14-15 specify that Jesus was the Son of God way before he was baptized and DECLARED to be the Son of God.
Hi Mike.For me, even if God told Mary that “You will give birth to the Christ” it doesn't close the case for me, because Mary could have spoken of him as Christ from the time he was born, and told 1000 people he was the Christ. (the person).
But his official role, and him being anointed with spirit didn't occur until his baptism, when he then took on that ROLE…took on the POSITION of Christ.
And I of course don't think Jesus was a regular nobody before he was anointed.
David
from all the works that Christ as to do ,is it not his dead that is the most important and for more recognition his anointing was only the beginning while his dead his the end of his ministry
Ecc 3:11 He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the hearts of men; yet they cannot fathom what God has done from beginning to end.
Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 15 2012,16:52) Hi David, excellent post. Jesus said: “The time is fulfilled” (Mark 1:15), what time was that?
…it was the fulfillment of the 69th week of Daniels prophecy.THE SEVENTY WEEKS OF DANIEL 9:24-27 EXPLAINED.
These people call themselves “the church of Christ”,
they are well informed, as are the JW's. (see David, a plug!)The time line, regarding this, starts at 15:25 through to 52:30.
Please listen all the way to the end count I have given you; OK?God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Hi David,Did you watch this video? …Did you Mike?
Your brother
in Christ, Jesus.
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
holycitybiblecode.orgNo Ed. I don't watch the videos you post – sorry.
David, when do you think Cyrus became the christ of God? Do you think he was born as God's foretold christ? Or do you think there was a day in his life where he transformed from regular dude to “Christ of God”?
Personally, I think he was God's christ from the time God prophesied about his coming – at least from God's point of view. But, short of that, I am certain in my mind that he was BORN a christ of God.
But more than this, I believe the scriptures. The angel in Luke 2 wasn't talking from the standpoint of after Jesus died, and remembering that the NOW Christ was born whenever. That angel called him the Christ the day he was born – AS IT HAPPENED…………… not years later. And that angel didn't call him the “soon to be Christ”.
Also, did you consider my 1 Samuel passage? Did you see how Saul WAS ALREADY the anointed one (christ) of God; and then LATER was “anointed” with Holy Spirit?
Luke 2
10 Then the angel said to them, “Do not be afraid, for behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy which will be to all people. 11 For there is born to you this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.David, just focus on that one passage for a while. This was spoken by an angel of God the very day Jesus was born. It was not spoken of a past event from a future time. It was not spoken after the Jordan from a standpoint of looking back in time.
peace
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