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Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Mar. 05 2012,20:05) To ALL, Father Yahweh's word is not a separate being apart from Himself that existed with Him in the beginning.
FI have never seen words becoming flesh and walking
Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 05 2012,13:07) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Mar. 05 2012,20:05) To ALL, Father Yahweh's word is not a separate being apart from Himself that existed with Him in the beginning.
FI have never seen words becoming flesh and walking
terraricca,Me either!
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Mar. 05 2012,13:08) Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 05 2012,13:07) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Mar. 05 2012,20:05) To ALL, Father Yahweh's word is not a separate being apart from Himself that existed with Him in the beginning.
FI have never seen words becoming flesh and walking
terraricca,Me either!
terraricca,BTW, Scripture never speaks of “words becoming flesh and walking either!
The Historic Translation of John 1:3-4
Our English Bible gradually developed over the last six hundred years. John Wycliffe is credited with the first English translation of the New Testament which was completed about 1380 C.E. Until that time the Word of Yahweh was locked up in the Latin tongue which was unknown to the common people. The Latin Vulgate translated by Jerome about 400 C.E. was the standard Bible used in the Catholic Church.
Wycliffe's translation is based upon the Latin Vulgate, not the Greek. It is therefore a “version of a version.” In Wycliffe's version, John 1:3-4 use the word “him” in reference to the “Word” of verse 1 and is a translation of the Latin “ipsum” and “ipso” (he, she, or it).
The next great English translator was William Tyndale. He was an excellent Greek scholar who had access to the Greek text of Erasmus which Wycliffe did not have. The hand of the Almighty was upon Tyndale as He used him to give us our first English translation based upon the Hebrew and Greek. His New Testament was published in 1526 and revised to its final state in 1534.
Tyndale's translation of John 1:3-4 reads,
John 1:3,4 – All things were made by it, and without it, was made nothing that was made. In it was life, and the life was the light of men.
As you can see, Tyndale used “it” instead of “him.” “It” is a translation of the Greek “autou” meaning he, she, or it. What this tells us is that Tyndale did not read Messiah into the “logos” or “word” of verse 1 and he was not influenced by the Latin Vulgate or Wycliffe.
Miles Coverdale, a friend of Tyndale, gave us the first complete Bible printed in English in 1535. It was not a firsthand translation from the Hebrew and Greek, but was based on the Latin Vulgate and Tyndale's translation. Coverdale used “him” in John 1:3-4.
In 1537, John Rogers, using the pseudonym “Thomas Matthew,” published a translation based largely on Tyndale and Coverdale which became known as Matthew's Bible. He uses “it” in John 1:3-4.
The Great Bible followed in 1539 and was a revision of Matthew's Bible. The first edition was prepared by Miles Coverdale. For some reason Coverdale decided “it” was more correct than “him” which appeared in his 1535 version based on the Latin Vulgate and left John 1:3-4 as it was in Matthew's translation, “it” instead of “him.” The Great Bible was the first authorized English version and was ordered to be placed in every church.
Under Queen Mary the printing of the English Bible ended and its use in the churches was forbidden. This gave rise to a version completed in Geneva. The Geneva Bible of 1560 was the first Bible to have numbered verses, each set off as a separate paragraph. This Bible became the “household Bible of the English-speaking nations.” It held that position for about 75 years. It was Shakespeare's Bible and that of the Puritans who settled New England. Once again, the translation of John 1:3-4 follows Tyndale's example, “it” instead of “him.”
Queen Elizabeth eventually reinstated the order that a copy of the Bible be placed in every church and she encouraged its reading. Since there were not enough copies of the Great Bible, the bishops themselves made a new revision known as the Bishop's Bible. It was published in 1568. It was used mostly by the clergy, not being very popular with the common people. It, too, renders John 1:3-4 using “it,” not “him.”
In 1582, the Roman Catholic version of the New Testament was completed and known as the Rheims New Testament. It was the result of a battle between Papists and Protestants, the former believing the Latin Vulgate to be the standard upon which all translations should be made. It was the work of Roman Catholic scholars based on the Latin. They chose to render John 1:3-4 using “him” as did the previous versions based on the Vulgate.
From that point on, all future versions, beginning with the King James version of 1611, used “him” instead of “it” in their translation of John 1:3-4. As you can see, the following translation of John 1:3-4 is not without historic and linguistic foundation;
“All things were made by it, and without it, was made nothing that was made. In it was life, and the life was the light of men.”
The “logos” (Word) of John 1:1 means “the spoken word” or “something said (including the thought).” In that sense the word is an “it,” not a person but a thing. In other words, Yahweh spoke creation into existence. This understanding agrees perfectly with passages such as Gen.1:3,6,9,11,14,20, and 24, all of which begin, “And Elohim said.” Yahweh spoke and it was done.
Ps.33:6,9 – By the word of Yahweh were the heavens made; and all the host by the breath of his mouth. . . For He spoke and it was; He commanded, and it stood fast.
Not only did Yahweh speak creation into existence, but He also spoke His Son Yahshua into existence; “And the word (Yahweh's spoken word) was made flesh” (Jn.1:14). Yahshua did not become the “Word of Yahweh” until his birth as a flesh and blood male child.
To say the “logos” of John 1:1 is a reference to Messiah is to read him into the text. Roman Catholic scholars had to do this in order to support their unscriptural trinity doctrine. If Messiah did not pre-exist, the trinity doctrine would collapse, it being based upon the belief that all three members of the “godhead” were co-eternal. Since Messiah only pre-existed in Yahweh's plan of salvation and not literally, the trinity doctrine is without foundation.
For further study of this subject, please refer to the articles entitled, “Yahshua Messiah Is Not Almighty Yahweh” and “Did Our Savior Pre-exist?“.
SOURCEAlso see:
Who Is The Word?
(John 1:1)Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 05 2012,20:09) Hi T,
That sounds as worldly as the words of Nicodemus.
N and Fyou are like Nicodemus ,not me
this is what scriptures saying;
Jn 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
do you see in here it is not a “it ” it is a HIS, and guess who John the bpt talking about ?? is not Jesus Christ ?? YES it is.
Jn 1:17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jn 1:2 He was with God in the beginning.
Jn 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
Jn 1:4 In him was life, and that life was the light of men.in those scriptures whom is John refers to,is it not Christ ???if not whose the HIM
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.
Col 1:19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in himIn the scriptures above did not Paul support what John says ?? yes he does
why do you not believe in scriptures
??Jn 1:5 The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.
Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 05 2012,14:24) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 05 2012,20:09) Hi T,
That sounds as worldly as the words of Nicodemus.
N and Fyou are like Nicodemus ,not me
this is what scriptures saying;
Jn 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
do you see in here it is not a “it ” it is a HIS, and guess who John the bpt talking about ?? is not Jesus Christ ?? YES it is.
Jn 1:17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jn 1:2 He was with God in the beginning.
Jn 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
Jn 1:4 In him was life, and that life was the light of men.in those scriptures whom is John refers to,is it not Christ ???if not whose the HIM
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.
Col 1:19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in himIn the scriptures above did not Paul support what John says ?? yes he does
why do you not believe in scriptures
??Jn 1:5 The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.
Pierre,I do believe in Scripture. I just don't care to believe in your pet peeve Trinitarian translation.
Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 05 2012,14:24) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 05 2012,20:09) Hi T,
That sounds as worldly as the words of Nicodemus.
N and Fyou are like Nicodemus ,not me
this is what scriptures saying;
Jn 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
do you see in here it is not a “it ” it is a HIS, and guess who John the bpt talking about ?? is not Jesus Christ ?? YES it is.
Jn 1:17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jn 1:2 He was with God in the beginning.
Jn 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
Jn 1:4 In him was life, and that life was the light of men.in those scriptures whom is John refers to,is it not Christ ???if not whose the HIM
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.
Col 1:19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in himIn the scriptures above did not Paul support what John says ?? yes he does
why do you not believe in scriptures
??Jn 1:5 The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.
Pierre,Also, where did you get the idea that Yahchanan [John] was the author of this book and that he had any say in what it says?
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Mar. 05 2012,21:35) Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 05 2012,14:24) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 05 2012,20:09) Hi T,
That sounds as worldly as the words of Nicodemus.
N and Fyou are like Nicodemus ,not me
this is what scriptures saying;
Jn 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
do you see in here it is not a “it ” it is a HIS, and guess who John the bpt talking about ?? is not Jesus Christ ?? YES it is.
Jn 1:17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jn 1:2 He was with God in the beginning.
Jn 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
Jn 1:4 In him was life, and that life was the light of men.in those scriptures whom is John refers to,is it not Christ ???if not whose the HIM
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.
Col 1:19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in himIn the scriptures above did not Paul support what John says ?? yes he does
why do you not believe in scriptures
??Jn 1:5 The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.
Pierre,I do believe in Scripture. I just don't care to believe in your pet peeve Trinitarian translation.
Fit does not matter if John is or not the writer of that book ,
as you see I have not put any of my comments i have let scriptures do the talking,and you start to discredit the scriptures ,if you have any understanding ,you should explain those scriptures and not send me to Timbuktu ,call me a supporter of the trinity what I hate
so you only put words that do not mean anything and so join Nick in is lost in the dark.Hi T,
Yes they are to you.
Wake up.“The word of God is alive and active …piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit” Heb4
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 05 2012,22:40) Hi T,
Yes they are to you.
Wake up.“The word of God is alive and active …piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit” Heb4
Nall comments of yours are so short that they are meaningless
you hardly use scriptures never mind explain them to others,
you have not make one comment to the scriptures i have presented why
?? because they are not support your viewsQuote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 06 2012,01:48) Hi T,
Some cannot take plain speech.
NYes I feel sorry for you that this is not possible for you ,but I still hope that you can come to grip with it and see the scriptures just the way they are written and accept them for the truth because that,s what they are,
So no use for me to continue until you are out of the dark,
god bless all your efforts
Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 05 2012,15:26) it does not matter if John is or not the writer of that book ,
as you see I have not put any of my comments i have let scriptures do the talking,
Terricca………O really, so you say you let scripture do your talking then please show us where the word, “Jesus” appears in John 1:1 , seeing your let the scriptures do your talking>Pierre you talk a lot but produce little scriptural truth.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 06 2012,06:33) Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 05 2012,15:26) it does not matter if John is or not the writer of that book ,
as you see I have not put any of my comments i have let scriptures do the talking,
Terricca………O really, so you say you let scripture do your talking then please show us where the word, “Jesus” appears in John 1:1 , seeing your let the scriptures do your talking>Pierre you talk a lot but produce little scriptural truth.
geneif you do not see it with your heart and mind or your soul,then you should stop follow men ,and read scriptures as God as given them to us ,just remember that their still is a selection on,
and so the scriptures are the words by witch it is done,
Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 05 2012,15:26) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Mar. 05 2012,21:35) Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 05 2012,14:24) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 05 2012,20:09) Hi T,
That sounds as worldly as the words of Nicodemus.
N and Fyou are like Nicodemus ,not me
this is what scriptures saying;
Jn 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
do you see in here it is not a “it ” it is a HIS, and guess who John the bpt talking about ?? is not Jesus Christ ?? YES it is.
Jn 1:17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jn 1:2 He was with God in the beginning.
Jn 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
Jn 1:4 In him was life, and that life was the light of men.in those scriptures whom is John refers to,is it not Christ ???if not whose the HIM
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.
Col 1:19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in himIn the scriptures above did not Paul support what John says ?? yes he does
why do you not believe in scriptures
??Jn 1:5 The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.
Pierre,I do believe in Scripture. I just don't care to believe in your pet peeve Trinitarian translation.
Fit does not matter if John is or not the writer of that book ,
as you see I have not put any of my comments i have let scriptures do the talking,and you start to discredit the scriptures ,if you have any understanding ,you should explain those scriptures and not send me to Timbuktu ,call me a supporter of the trinity what I hate
so you only put words that do not mean anything and so join Nick in is lost in the dark.
Pierre,You say:
Quote as you see I have not put any of my comments i have let scriptures do the talking Well, I can see very clearly that you have entered your own commentary in your previous post. Following is your commentary and this is certainly not Scripture doing the talking:
Quote do you see in here it is not a “it ” it is a HIS, and guess who John the bpt talking about ?? is not Jesus Christ ?? YES it is. in those scriptures whom is John refers to,is it not Christ ???if not whose the HIM
In the scriptures above did not Paul support what John says ?? yes he does
why do you not believe in scriptures
??Then you add:
[QUOTE]it does not matter if John is or not the writer of that book ,
as you see I have not put any of my comments i have let scriptures do the talking,and you start to discredit the scriptures ,if you have any understanding ,you should explain those scriptures and not send me to Timbuktu ,call me a supporter of the trinity what I hate
so you only put words that do not mean anything and so join Nick in is lost in the dark.[QUOTE]You say “it does not matter if John is or not the writer of that book , …”
Well, to me it matters when you set yourself up as teaching what Scripture says and say “and guess who John the bpt talking about ??” when I know full well that it is not Yahchanan [John] the Immerser [Baptist] talking. Then you falsely accuse me (bear false witness against me) of discrediting the Scripture when I simply only asked you what or who gave you the idea that Yahchanan [John] was the author of this book? I also never called you a supported of the Trinity, but simply said “I just don't care to believe in your pet peeve Trinitarian translation.”
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 05 2012,12:24) Let me kill two birds with one stone here. This is from NETNotes concerning John 1:1…………….. The construction in John 1:1c does not equate the Word with the person of God (this is ruled out by 1:1b, “the Word was with God”);
Nick, you'll notice that even these TRINITARIAN scholars realize that the PERSON of God cannot be WITH the PERSON of God.
And Ed, you'll notice the phrase “the PERSON of God”.
Hi Mike,You can use the term “Person” when referring to God if you want,
but when using that term the “Trins” will think that you are
agreeing with them – I believe you are not agreeing.And also because you are using only an obscure definition of the word,
people like myself and BD will naturally ask you to explain
how you are defining the word “Person”.The word “entity” causes no such confusion.
Your brother
in Christ, Jesus.
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
holycitybiblecode.org
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